my wife posed a question to me that I really can't answer. When sailing our Catalina 22 you constantly have to have a hand on the tiller (even with a tiller-tamer). While watching a sailing video she noticed the captain was able to release the wheel and tend to other things without keeping one hand always on the wheel. We're assuming an auto-pilot was not used since it wasn't demo'd. How do I explain the difference in stability? I believe the boat in the vid was a Bavaria Vision 46.
differences in ease of control
- Thread starter caribbeanfrank
- Start date
Most Edson wheels have a lock to keep the wheel in position. However, a bigger issue is YOUR BOAT. If you have to keep a "hand" on the tiller - assuming that means you tiller wants to move and steer the boat off course - you are sailing with the breaks on. SAIL TRIM is the actual concern. More than likely you are "over-trimmed." Not knowing exactly what pressure you have & what point of sail, just try slacking off the main a bit to begin with. The helm needs to feel nearly neutral for optimum performance with just enough weather helm to round up slowly if you leave the tiller, and no tamer.
Always hard to cover all the bases in a short post, but I'm betting this is your situation.
Always hard to cover all the bases in a short post, but I'm betting this is your situation.
..... and chances are the demo boat has a below deck autopilot.
If you can balance the sail plan/trim you can also sail hands free or get a tiller pilot!
If you can balance the sail plan/trim you can also sail hands free or get a tiller pilot!
Agree with what has been said. Also, boat size has a lot to do with steering characteristics. Longer and heavier boats are easier to handle than short, light boats. Light boats have a tendency to move with the wave where heavy boats tend to "plow" through wave action.
Practice and Conditions
On my 310 every now and then when sailing up wind, if I get the sails trimmed just right I can let go of the wheel (it has neutral helm) and the boat will sail itself. Wind picks up it turns an RCH into the wind, wind slacks off a little it bears away an RCH always keeping on the general course. Just about magical.
On my 310 every now and then when sailing up wind, if I get the sails trimmed just right I can let go of the wheel (it has neutral helm) and the boat will sail itself. Wind picks up it turns an RCH into the wind, wind slacks off a little it bears away an RCH always keeping on the general course. Just about magical.
Thanks for the replies. I do agree that we are probably over-trimmed as our/my habit is to sheet the sails in pretty tight. next time we go out we'll set a heading and start to experiment with the sails and see if that doesn't lighten the tiller. As my profile says, we're still new to this and learning.
When sailing upwind or on a beam reach, if the wind is steady and the water is not swirling (tidal currents) and we don't shift weight around (even on a 20,000 lb boat moving around makes a difference) then it is possible to sail for 5 to 20 minutes without touching the helm. With minor changes in wind speed or direction she will just settle in a new slightly different direction.
Going downwind no way - we are constantly making corrections.
We I came from the right amount of weather helm was considered desirable - if the wind picked up the boat would respond by heeling and pointing up closer to the wind. When the rudder is adjusted to counter that you are getting lift to windward from both the rudder and the hull.
Going downwind no way - we are constantly making corrections.
We I came from the right amount of weather helm was considered desirable - if the wind picked up the boat would respond by heeling and pointing up closer to the wind. When the rudder is adjusted to counter that you are getting lift to windward from both the rudder and the hull.
Re: Practice and Conditions
What you are looking for is the balance point in the boat. I'm no expert, I've only been practicing at this sailing stuff for about 30 years with mostly bays and lakes so lots of experience still to gain.
However, I was able to get our boat balanced last season after a few years of tuning, you'll have to see what works for you and of course there are a lot of factors to consider. My list starts here:
- Check your rudder and rudder fitting hardware. Make sure it is all in good condition no real wobbles or worn bearings.
- Rig tuning - if the rig isn't tuned to properly I don't think any amount of sail trim will help. Get the specs, borrow a Loos (Sp?) gauge and tune it up. Probably needs to be tighter than you imagined. If you have a back stay adjuster, learn to use it.
- Sail trim - now the fun begins. If you can start in light air 5-10 knots, you'll have more time to play around, lighter is better. Get the Sail trim book from SBO everyone mentions on this site and enjoy.
Again, it took me 2 seasons on my old hunter 25 and 3 years on the Hunter 28 but when you get it balanced it is fun to be able to move around without constantly holding the tiller.
Good luck,
Victor
Hunter 28
What you are looking for is the balance point in the boat. I'm no expert, I've only been practicing at this sailing stuff for about 30 years with mostly bays and lakes so lots of experience still to gain.
However, I was able to get our boat balanced last season after a few years of tuning, you'll have to see what works for you and of course there are a lot of factors to consider. My list starts here:
- Check your rudder and rudder fitting hardware. Make sure it is all in good condition no real wobbles or worn bearings.
- Rig tuning - if the rig isn't tuned to properly I don't think any amount of sail trim will help. Get the specs, borrow a Loos (Sp?) gauge and tune it up. Probably needs to be tighter than you imagined. If you have a back stay adjuster, learn to use it.
- Sail trim - now the fun begins. If you can start in light air 5-10 knots, you'll have more time to play around, lighter is better. Get the Sail trim book from SBO everyone mentions on this site and enjoy.
Again, it took me 2 seasons on my old hunter 25 and 3 years on the Hunter 28 but when you get it balanced it is fun to be able to move around without constantly holding the tiller.
Good luck,
Victor
Hunter 28
So C-Frank, are you guys sailing now in Ark??? I'm sitting in Iowa expecting a high tomorrow of 13 Below Zero. Makes me start to think SOUTH!
Buy Don's book and learn to trim your sails. Best few bucks you'll ever spend.
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?51998/Sail Trim Users Guide
Right here from this website. They support/made this 'site, good idea to respond in kind.
TLW, it's not much better here. about 38 degrees and fixin to go downhill from there. I'll take Don's book with us next time we go out.
In another thread just earlier today, and in many repeated posts about sail trim and rig tuning, I continue to mention the fact that Catalina has one of the best rig tuning guides for masthead boats.
It's in each of the different size boats made by Catalina right in the manual.
If you don't have one, find one on the internet, or find it embedded here (it's the same for my boat as it was for our earlier C22 and C25).
http://www.c34.org/manuals/1988/1988-C34-Owners.pdf
If you do a search on this forum on Selden you'll find many links to that excellent guide as well.
The trimming advice is absolutely correct. And in a perfect and unrealistic dynamic world, common physics dictate that any attempt to steer the boat with trim alone is just as much, and likely more trouble than just putting a tiller pilot on it. Absolutely the boat will steer with trim. But all you've done is shifted your focus to fine trimming, and it's a trade off. It can be steered relatively well just by shifting your weight back and forth, (or side to side more accurately). But you are still doing something physical to steer. Tiller tamer my ass. That is simply the illusion of self steering, which basically just takes the shock loading off of the helm. Take a brand new auto, tie the wheel to the door handle, and see how far it will stay in the road. Not bloody long. And the road is static. As is the brand new steer system in the auto. The sea and the wind is dynamic, and ever changing. You can kinda see where this is going. Even the dumb videos of the amer you can see the guy release the tiller, and snatches his hand back in his lap like it was a snake, and no more than two or three seconds later has to grab it again to make an adjustment. Because the silly thing won't work more than that time typically. So if you want to go below to pee, grab a drink, work the deck, unless you are very, very quick, the boat will be heading somewhere else. Not where you want it. Because you moved. The weight changed, so off you go. Of course bigger keel boats will hold a course better, what with a helm lock, but that is an entirely different animal, I know, I've done 'em both.
Ah anyway, I fought that battle too. Break down and put a tiller pilot on it and start enjoying the boat. Without worrying that aggravating tiller. Push a button and get on with your day. There's a lotta fun to be had on the C22, but managing the helm all day ain't one of 'em...
Ah anyway, I fought that battle too. Break down and put a tiller pilot on it and start enjoying the boat. Without worrying that aggravating tiller. Push a button and get on with your day. There's a lotta fun to be had on the C22, but managing the helm all day ain't one of 'em...
The Catalina 22 is basically a fin keel spade rudder boat, and pretty light. Used to sail a 21 footer with the same basic configuration. If you let go the tiller, the boat would veer off course almost instantly, I got into the habit of dropping the tiller pilot onto the tiller, even when it was turned off, just to hold the tiller in one place. Sail trim will certainly help, but it's the nature of the beast
Conversely, my Meridain 25- full keel, attached rundder, will sail herself ( or motor) for long periods with the helm free. Again- the nature of the beast.
I notice most of the folks responding are sailing boats in the 30 foot and over range.
It's asking a lot to expect a trailer-able small sailboat, to behave like a 30 (or bigger) footer.. But it'll be a whole lot more responsive.
Enjoy it for what it is.
Conversely, my Meridain 25- full keel, attached rundder, will sail herself ( or motor) for long periods with the helm free. Again- the nature of the beast.
I notice most of the folks responding are sailing boats in the 30 foot and over range.
It's asking a lot to expect a trailer-able small sailboat, to behave like a 30 (or bigger) footer.. But it'll be a whole lot more responsive.
Enjoy it for what it is.
My remarks were based on sailing a Wilderness 21, Venture 23 years ago and I believe my remarks were relevant as I could balance both boats, and used a version of tiller tamer that worked perfectly if I needed prolonged "self-steering."
Also 15 years as a Precision (also Hunter, Santana, Merit) dealer confirmed my thinking, for me, in sailing the P-21 & P-23 and solving these same problems for customers.
If C-Frank's Catalina 22 is a centerboard boat, he can also use the centerboard to balance the center of effort vs the center of lateral resistance if he want to get that "into" it.
I've known (racing) sailors who could balance the Catalina 22 and make it faster than it should be. I don't think there is anything basically "wrong" with the boat that it can't be balanced.
Most of us did not start off in 30 footers.
Also 15 years as a Precision (also Hunter, Santana, Merit) dealer confirmed my thinking, for me, in sailing the P-21 & P-23 and solving these same problems for customers.
If C-Frank's Catalina 22 is a centerboard boat, he can also use the centerboard to balance the center of effort vs the center of lateral resistance if he want to get that "into" it.
I've known (racing) sailors who could balance the Catalina 22 and make it faster than it should be. I don't think there is anything basically "wrong" with the boat that it can't be balanced.
Most of us did not start off in 30 footers.
The school house solution is 3 degrees of weather helm. The boat will also sail fastest when you have a balanced sail plan (no hands needed on the tiller) and 3 degrees of rudder to help the keel do its work.
The 3 degrees of weather helm is also a great SAFETY FACTOR should you find yourself and your boat parting company - something that can ruin your entire day.
Hey Chris, maybe you're right, but I always maintained that if the 3/4 ton wants to be on the sidewalk, who am I to disagree.
The 135 on the front end of the C270 will allow the boat to sail itself so nicely that it's disconcerting. It really does come up and fall off nicely with the changes in the breeze. The 155 on the front end contributes a lot of weather helm in comparison.
The 135 on the front end of the C270 will allow the boat to sail itself so nicely that it's disconcerting. It really does come up and fall off nicely with the changes in the breeze. The 155 on the front end contributes a lot of weather helm in comparison.