I have a 25 year old Yanmar 3GMF 20hp engine. I have always purchased my fuel from the marina next to where I keep my boat since my marina does not sell fuel. Due to a good size watermans fleet in the area the fuel was always fresh and I never experianced any problems. That all changed this past season (2007). The slips where the waterman kept their boats were sold and they were kicked out by the new owner. So now the marina next door was selling just a fraction of the diesel they had sold in the past. By coincidence several of the boats in my marina experianced fuel problems last season, including me. So I decided I will buy my fuel elsewhere in 2008. When I winterized this past December I topped off the fuel tank with fuel I bought at a busy service station I pass on the way to the boat. My tank holds 25 gallons and I bought five gallons from the service station. The sign on the pump stated "Ultra Low Sulfur - 15 PPM Max". Was this a bad idea? Could I experiance problems if I don't do something about it? Thanks for any advice. Joe Mullee
Diesel "Ultra Low Sulfur - 15 PPM Max" : Is This Bad For My Engine?
- Thread starter Joe Mullee
- Start date
- Status
ULSD
It is my understanding that when the sulfur is removed, they add whatever lubricants are needed. I have seen nothing to indicate any problems with the low sulfur diesel fuels.
It is my understanding that when the sulfur is removed, they add whatever lubricants are needed. I have seen nothing to indicate any problems with the low sulfur diesel fuels.
Some folks have said...
...that they had to change fuel filters right after swiching to ULSD because for whatever reason it 'cleaned' crud that was in the tank, therefore causing the need to change the filters. After a time or two no more crud. (Now this is all second hand info.) So that said you might want to carry a couple of extra filters...'just in case'! I will say this...I have 108,000 miles in a 2007 Chevy truck with the Duramax Diesel. (Bought it in Sept 2006.) I change the fuel filter roughly every 15-K, I have yet to see any crud at all when I change them. Jack Hart
...that they had to change fuel filters right after swiching to ULSD because for whatever reason it 'cleaned' crud that was in the tank, therefore causing the need to change the filters. After a time or two no more crud. (Now this is all second hand info.) So that said you might want to carry a couple of extra filters...'just in case'! I will say this...I have 108,000 miles in a 2007 Chevy truck with the Duramax Diesel. (Bought it in Sept 2006.) I change the fuel filter roughly every 15-K, I have yet to see any crud at all when I change them. Jack Hart
It Is probably ULSD fuel wherever you go nowadays
Dennis W has it right. Plus ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel) is probably all that is available as it was mandated for all highway trucks in the US and Canada. I forget the exact date but it is at least 2 year old law. I doubt the issue experienced locally was due to ULSD but may have been simply crappy & dirty fuel supplied. I run my 20 yar old Kubota with ULSD and have seen no side affects. Cheers. Ken
Dennis W has it right. Plus ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel) is probably all that is available as it was mandated for all highway trucks in the US and Canada. I forget the exact date but it is at least 2 year old law. I doubt the issue experienced locally was due to ULSD but may have been simply crappy & dirty fuel supplied. I run my 20 yar old Kubota with ULSD and have seen no side affects. Cheers. Ken
Could cause a problem
My understanding is that all diesels will run on the low sulphur fuel since they have had hardened valves and seats since the early 70's, when they made the similar switch for non leaded fuel in gasoline engines. The problem with the low sulphur diesel is that it is cleansing solvent, and it loosens the film coatings that have been deposited in tanks and fuel lines that have been in service, and those deposits may gum up filters and on occasion, injectors. Once the change has been made without problems for a reasonable period of time however, then you can continue to run it without fear. Joe
My understanding is that all diesels will run on the low sulphur fuel since they have had hardened valves and seats since the early 70's, when they made the similar switch for non leaded fuel in gasoline engines. The problem with the low sulphur diesel is that it is cleansing solvent, and it loosens the film coatings that have been deposited in tanks and fuel lines that have been in service, and those deposits may gum up filters and on occasion, injectors. Once the change has been made without problems for a reasonable period of time however, then you can continue to run it without fear. Joe
Skipper of the Banshee
All this means is that there has been a ditergent add'ed to the fuel u now use and no dont worry about it all this does is make ur fuel burn cleaner and no there should not be enough dirt into ur motor to hurt anything she may miss a bit for a short time when u first start up at high RPM but it will not foul up ur injectors and filters if u change them like u r suppose to which is recomended in ur owners book .Im a heavy duty mechanice retired I might add .lol.
All this means is that there has been a ditergent add'ed to the fuel u now use and no dont worry about it all this does is make ur fuel burn cleaner and no there should not be enough dirt into ur motor to hurt anything she may miss a bit for a short time when u first start up at high RPM but it will not foul up ur injectors and filters if u change them like u r suppose to which is recomended in ur owners book .Im a heavy duty mechanice retired I might add .lol.
ULSD and Low Sulfur Diesel
WOW Prior posts are mostly urban legend. No facts there. Take it from some-one who uses diesel, like 150 gallons a day. ULSD is a new fuel, they did lower the amount of sulfur in diesel over 4 years ago. That diesel is known as low sulfur diesel. The new Ultra Low Sulfur diesel started last spring. It has 99% less sulfur in it than the low sulfur diesel. All road diesel has been Low sulfur diesel for several years now. This switch did cause several problems. Increase engine wear is one, higher engine temps is another. Lower fuel economy and power loss is another. Now for the new Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. It has such a low sulfur requirement that no oil on earth can meet this ultra low sulfur requirement. The OLD high sulfur diesel had sulfur added to lower it's burn temp., and increase it's lubricity. Most diesel engines have only lost about 10-20% of their life due to the switch to Low Sulfur Diesel. Sulfur also helps prevent Blue Green algee from growing in the diesel. Not much of a problem when you cycle your fuel daily, but on boats, even the Low Sulfur Diesel seen the need to add more biocyde to your fuel. Especially for winter lay-up. The process use to get the sulfur content down for the new ULTRA Low Sulfur diesel adds a more solvent like property to the fuel. This will lift the oily varnish like film that our older diesel left on things like you fuel tank walls. The junk is what clogs your filters. Make sue you always have a new filter with you incase you need to change filters due to a clog. The ULSD does not have as much lubricity. You need to change engine RPMs more frequently. Don't run for even an hour at 1200 RPM, change the throttle settings every few minutes. This isn't a problem for road diesels but is such a problem on marine diesels and RailRoad diesels that ships and trains don't use ULSD. They want their diesels to last more than a month. #1 diesel (kerosene is also jet fuel. ULSD in a jet engine destroys it in minutes) As for boats, no-one cares if they make you burn a fuel that can destroy your engine, except you. ULSD will gell at a higher temp. than regular diesel, but this isn't a marine problem. Since it has a more solvent like property, it will pass the rings in the engine more than the old fuel, so more oil changes will be required, and adding a lubricant like Howes to improve upper cylinder lubrication is helpful. ULSD also does not burn as well. That is you may notice you will need more of it to do the same trip. It produces fewer Horse Power. The reason is simple, fewer BTU's per unit. With less power cmes lower fuel efficency (lower MPG), and a hotter running engine, most noticabel on a diesel is that hills you climbed a year ago with no problem now cause the engine to over heat. This is because ULSD causes less power, torque, and low fuel efficiency, while causing the engine to also warm more from lower upper cylinder lubrication, and as the engine has to work closer to or longer at 100% power, it also runs hotter. In the end it works like this. Change your oil and fuel filters at twice the OEM interval recomended on any engine more than 2 years old. (Pre 2007 engines). Pump your fuel tanks dry for storrage. carry spare filters (fuel). Add a diesel lubricant package (like Howes). Expect your engine to last only about 70-80% as long before needing a rebuild. The engine will suffer from blowby, and valve stem wear faster than with the old fuel. ULSD may be the only choice at pumps in Ca. The rest of the country can still get Low Sulfur diesel. Use it instead. Pumps are marked if they are ULSD. ULSD has already blown one of my diesel engines. It isn't a good fuel.
WOW Prior posts are mostly urban legend. No facts there. Take it from some-one who uses diesel, like 150 gallons a day. ULSD is a new fuel, they did lower the amount of sulfur in diesel over 4 years ago. That diesel is known as low sulfur diesel. The new Ultra Low Sulfur diesel started last spring. It has 99% less sulfur in it than the low sulfur diesel. All road diesel has been Low sulfur diesel for several years now. This switch did cause several problems. Increase engine wear is one, higher engine temps is another. Lower fuel economy and power loss is another. Now for the new Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. It has such a low sulfur requirement that no oil on earth can meet this ultra low sulfur requirement. The OLD high sulfur diesel had sulfur added to lower it's burn temp., and increase it's lubricity. Most diesel engines have only lost about 10-20% of their life due to the switch to Low Sulfur Diesel. Sulfur also helps prevent Blue Green algee from growing in the diesel. Not much of a problem when you cycle your fuel daily, but on boats, even the Low Sulfur Diesel seen the need to add more biocyde to your fuel. Especially for winter lay-up. The process use to get the sulfur content down for the new ULTRA Low Sulfur diesel adds a more solvent like property to the fuel. This will lift the oily varnish like film that our older diesel left on things like you fuel tank walls. The junk is what clogs your filters. Make sue you always have a new filter with you incase you need to change filters due to a clog. The ULSD does not have as much lubricity. You need to change engine RPMs more frequently. Don't run for even an hour at 1200 RPM, change the throttle settings every few minutes. This isn't a problem for road diesels but is such a problem on marine diesels and RailRoad diesels that ships and trains don't use ULSD. They want their diesels to last more than a month. #1 diesel (kerosene is also jet fuel. ULSD in a jet engine destroys it in minutes) As for boats, no-one cares if they make you burn a fuel that can destroy your engine, except you. ULSD will gell at a higher temp. than regular diesel, but this isn't a marine problem. Since it has a more solvent like property, it will pass the rings in the engine more than the old fuel, so more oil changes will be required, and adding a lubricant like Howes to improve upper cylinder lubrication is helpful. ULSD also does not burn as well. That is you may notice you will need more of it to do the same trip. It produces fewer Horse Power. The reason is simple, fewer BTU's per unit. With less power cmes lower fuel efficency (lower MPG), and a hotter running engine, most noticabel on a diesel is that hills you climbed a year ago with no problem now cause the engine to over heat. This is because ULSD causes less power, torque, and low fuel efficiency, while causing the engine to also warm more from lower upper cylinder lubrication, and as the engine has to work closer to or longer at 100% power, it also runs hotter. In the end it works like this. Change your oil and fuel filters at twice the OEM interval recomended on any engine more than 2 years old. (Pre 2007 engines). Pump your fuel tanks dry for storrage. carry spare filters (fuel). Add a diesel lubricant package (like Howes). Expect your engine to last only about 70-80% as long before needing a rebuild. The engine will suffer from blowby, and valve stem wear faster than with the old fuel. ULSD may be the only choice at pumps in Ca. The rest of the country can still get Low Sulfur diesel. Use it instead. Pumps are marked if they are ULSD. ULSD has already blown one of my diesel engines. It isn't a good fuel.
I've Been Using ULSD for over a Year
NO PROBLEMS!!!! The process of removing the sulfur also removes ash and nitrogen. Should reduce the amount of growth in fuels as algea and bacteria all need phosphorus and potassium which is part of the ash. I love the look of ULSD it looks clean!!!!! I haven't had any problems with filters and my usual changing of my primary once every year or so hasn't changed. Sulfur when it burns becomes sulfur dioxide which when mixed with water becomes sulfuric acid!!!!! One of the most corrosive acids known. I do add some biocide and lubricant/cetane booster but consider it like tossing salt over my shoulder...it does no harm.
NO PROBLEMS!!!! The process of removing the sulfur also removes ash and nitrogen. Should reduce the amount of growth in fuels as algea and bacteria all need phosphorus and potassium which is part of the ash. I love the look of ULSD it looks clean!!!!! I haven't had any problems with filters and my usual changing of my primary once every year or so hasn't changed. Sulfur when it burns becomes sulfur dioxide which when mixed with water becomes sulfuric acid!!!!! One of the most corrosive acids known. I do add some biocide and lubricant/cetane booster but consider it like tossing salt over my shoulder...it does no harm.
Joe: I started using ULSD
fuel in my 21 yr old 2GM20F Yanmar at the start of last year. I added a gallon at time thinking that my engine would get "used to it" more easily in small quantities. I expected that, based on what I'd read about ULSD, it would dissolve a lot of old crud and gunk in my fuel tank and lines, and perhaps clog up my primary filter prematurely. By the end of the season, I assume I was then running on mostly all ULSD, and my engine never had a hiccup and the primary was in about the same condition it would be in with the older higher sulfur (5000 ppm vs 15 ppm) fuel. I thought lubricity would be a problem, but I believe the refineries of ULSD are adding back whatever is needed for lubricity in order to avoid all the lawsuits that would follow if lubricity was really a problem. I do, however, add a bit of biocide, Pri-D, and cetane booster (all I can buy locally has a cetane rating of 40 and I think Yanmar specifies 45 to their engines) to each batch of fuel I put in the tank. Not sure I need these additives, but I don't think that they hurt in small quantities.
fuel in my 21 yr old 2GM20F Yanmar at the start of last year. I added a gallon at time thinking that my engine would get "used to it" more easily in small quantities. I expected that, based on what I'd read about ULSD, it would dissolve a lot of old crud and gunk in my fuel tank and lines, and perhaps clog up my primary filter prematurely. By the end of the season, I assume I was then running on mostly all ULSD, and my engine never had a hiccup and the primary was in about the same condition it would be in with the older higher sulfur (5000 ppm vs 15 ppm) fuel. I thought lubricity would be a problem, but I believe the refineries of ULSD are adding back whatever is needed for lubricity in order to avoid all the lawsuits that would follow if lubricity was really a problem. I do, however, add a bit of biocide, Pri-D, and cetane booster (all I can buy locally has a cetane rating of 40 and I think Yanmar specifies 45 to their engines) to each batch of fuel I put in the tank. Not sure I need these additives, but I don't think that they hurt in small quantities.
Off road fuel
The company that I work for uses off road(red dye) higher sulfur diesel to run high pressure h2o pumps to clean power plants, to the tune of thousands of gallons a day. If you get caught using off road fuel in on road vehicles you will pay a HIGH fine. My question is, can you legally use off road fuel(red dyed)in your boats? Fair winds, Pappy Jack
The company that I work for uses off road(red dye) higher sulfur diesel to run high pressure h2o pumps to clean power plants, to the tune of thousands of gallons a day. If you get caught using off road fuel in on road vehicles you will pay a HIGH fine. My question is, can you legally use off road fuel(red dyed)in your boats? Fair winds, Pappy Jack
Some Fuel Dyed Red
Some of the fuel that I have purchased at Marina's has been dyed red. You can't get much more off road than in a boat. I'd be careful using off road fuel in a newer diesel..it will kill your catalytic converter. That is the whole reason for ULSD!!! Diesels using ULSD should be spewing a lot less cancer causing soot into the air for us to breath. Lung cancer rates are higher in cities supposedly due in part to the soot from diesel engines.
Some of the fuel that I have purchased at Marina's has been dyed red. You can't get much more off road than in a boat. I'd be careful using off road fuel in a newer diesel..it will kill your catalytic converter. That is the whole reason for ULSD!!! Diesels using ULSD should be spewing a lot less cancer causing soot into the air for us to breath. Lung cancer rates are higher in cities supposedly due in part to the soot from diesel engines.
Add lubricity
Listen to 70623. Both a Yanmar mechanic and the guy that services our two delivery trucks said to add lubricity (Stanadyne, see link below). Replaced the injector pump in our International this year. Just like 70623, my trucks run more in a week than my boat all year. One or two boat years on ULSD will not tell the story.
Listen to 70623. Both a Yanmar mechanic and the guy that services our two delivery trucks said to add lubricity (Stanadyne, see link below). Replaced the injector pump in our International this year. Just like 70623, my trucks run more in a week than my boat all year. One or two boat years on ULSD will not tell the story.
Replace the lossed lubricity
All you need do to put lubricity back to help the injectors and pump especially, is to run a minimum of 3% biodiesel. Won't loosen up any more gunk than ULSD and is better for the engine. Typically you can run up to 20% bio before you need to change fuel line to Coast Guard "A" type, as it does not like rubber. i run at least 20% no problems in a 4 cyl. turbo Yanmar.
All you need do to put lubricity back to help the injectors and pump especially, is to run a minimum of 3% biodiesel. Won't loosen up any more gunk than ULSD and is better for the engine. Typically you can run up to 20% bio before you need to change fuel line to Coast Guard "A" type, as it does not like rubber. i run at least 20% no problems in a 4 cyl. turbo Yanmar.
Clear a few things up
1; Yes you can legally burn off road diesel in a boat, BUT NOT a truck on the highway. 2; Like I said it will disolve the oily varnish like deposits from your old fuel, a newer engine/fuel system doesn't have these deposits. 3; moonsailor, it may have less ash/nitrogen, but it will absorb more moisture/water, which leads to more algee, that used to be killed off by the sulfur. Road trucks never used to get algee problems, guess what. Now when you park your diesel truck for a few months, you get algee! Sulfur is a biocyde. AND 4; Soot is not a byproduct of the sulfur, but acidity is. And more #2 oil is burned around big cities in furnaces, and for power generation, then by trucks. Jets burn almost 5 times as much oil here in the US and they use high sulfur #1 oil. The air port is more poluting than the trucks. 5; It is mostly upper cylinder lubrecation that is lost (rings and valve guides). Hardened valves and guides are for the higher heat generated by No-Lead fuel, although they are used in diesels too, but have been for decades because of the hot, high pressure exhaust. 6; No to BIO DIESEL. There is no standard yet for Biodiesel. So no two places carry a biodiesel that is the same. In areas where they recycle fryer grease etc. these bio fuels have destroyed many an engine. You usually loose 10-20% of your power and economy when using them, so if you add 10% bio and get 20% less economy, where's the savings??? Bio Diesel made with pure peanut oil, castor oil, or soybean oil has worked very well, but costs nearly twice as much to make as coal oil. Which also works very well. Germany ran it's war machine durring WWII on coal oil. Bio oil has less lubricity than oil, except castor oil, which is about the same and of corse has no ash in it. Electronic injectors have had no problem YET with ULSD, but our boats have mechanical injectors. When they switched from regular (high sulfur) diesel to Low Sulfur diesel, many engines had fuel pump and injector failures. Lastly the crud that ULSD cleans out of your tanks and pumps etc. is the coating that helped protect these parts from corrosion. And I doubt that any of you would notice a loss of HP or torque in your boats engine, as many engines in boats are over the power requirement for the boat. + or - 1 HP doesn't change hull speed. The loss of power would only be seeable as fuel consumption/hour difference, at a given RPM.
1; Yes you can legally burn off road diesel in a boat, BUT NOT a truck on the highway. 2; Like I said it will disolve the oily varnish like deposits from your old fuel, a newer engine/fuel system doesn't have these deposits. 3; moonsailor, it may have less ash/nitrogen, but it will absorb more moisture/water, which leads to more algee, that used to be killed off by the sulfur. Road trucks never used to get algee problems, guess what. Now when you park your diesel truck for a few months, you get algee! Sulfur is a biocyde. AND 4; Soot is not a byproduct of the sulfur, but acidity is. And more #2 oil is burned around big cities in furnaces, and for power generation, then by trucks. Jets burn almost 5 times as much oil here in the US and they use high sulfur #1 oil. The air port is more poluting than the trucks. 5; It is mostly upper cylinder lubrecation that is lost (rings and valve guides). Hardened valves and guides are for the higher heat generated by No-Lead fuel, although they are used in diesels too, but have been for decades because of the hot, high pressure exhaust. 6; No to BIO DIESEL. There is no standard yet for Biodiesel. So no two places carry a biodiesel that is the same. In areas where they recycle fryer grease etc. these bio fuels have destroyed many an engine. You usually loose 10-20% of your power and economy when using them, so if you add 10% bio and get 20% less economy, where's the savings??? Bio Diesel made with pure peanut oil, castor oil, or soybean oil has worked very well, but costs nearly twice as much to make as coal oil. Which also works very well. Germany ran it's war machine durring WWII on coal oil. Bio oil has less lubricity than oil, except castor oil, which is about the same and of corse has no ash in it. Electronic injectors have had no problem YET with ULSD, but our boats have mechanical injectors. When they switched from regular (high sulfur) diesel to Low Sulfur diesel, many engines had fuel pump and injector failures. Lastly the crud that ULSD cleans out of your tanks and pumps etc. is the coating that helped protect these parts from corrosion. And I doubt that any of you would notice a loss of HP or torque in your boats engine, as many engines in boats are over the power requirement for the boat. + or - 1 HP doesn't change hull speed. The loss of power would only be seeable as fuel consumption/hour difference, at a given RPM.
all good words...
Us older guys (50's) remember when california reduced the sulfer content in the mid 80's The fuel is thinner than it was befor, so any fuel return system from the injectors back to the tank that was about to leak, began to leak on the next fillup. Check your fuel systems for leaks!!! The reason for the change to 15ppm is more for the exaust particulate filters service life. With gas in the 70's the service stations had three pumps for different products so the change was gradual with unleaded, regular was avalable for years afterwards. How many stations had more than one diesel product? Only a hand full had farm fuel, and heating oil for the east coasters was not something you bought at the pump. Yes to the additives, and stablizers... and yes to the more fequent oil changes. Both are cheep to do, and is something you can do. We use to have a formula for adding motor oil to a missfueled diesel, of so many quarts per gallon of gas, to make it safe to run. Just look for an oil that is high in sulfer, and ash, or was it the DOG FOOD that has the ash? As for the trains and the ships... the next congressional change will include all new build off highway equipment new trains and comercial ships registered with the US. You can still buy freon r-12 from mexico, and canada.
Us older guys (50's) remember when california reduced the sulfer content in the mid 80's The fuel is thinner than it was befor, so any fuel return system from the injectors back to the tank that was about to leak, began to leak on the next fillup. Check your fuel systems for leaks!!! The reason for the change to 15ppm is more for the exaust particulate filters service life. With gas in the 70's the service stations had three pumps for different products so the change was gradual with unleaded, regular was avalable for years afterwards. How many stations had more than one diesel product? Only a hand full had farm fuel, and heating oil for the east coasters was not something you bought at the pump. Yes to the additives, and stablizers... and yes to the more fequent oil changes. Both are cheep to do, and is something you can do. We use to have a formula for adding motor oil to a missfueled diesel, of so many quarts per gallon of gas, to make it safe to run. Just look for an oil that is high in sulfer, and ash, or was it the DOG FOOD that has the ash? As for the trains and the ships... the next congressional change will include all new build off highway equipment new trains and comercial ships registered with the US. You can still buy freon r-12 from mexico, and canada.
- Status