Diesel M-25 won't start

sailingseadragon · May 16, 2007

Fuel should flow without air

Once the fuel flows without bubbles from each injector you are ready to start the silver beast... With the throttle still in the full open start the engine normally.. Several attempts may be needed... take your time. CAUTION: DO NOT crank the engine for long periods of time. Excessive cranking will cause the starter to over heat and will fill the exhaust with sea water. Good luckGarner

sailingseadragon · May 16, 2007

Fuel should flow without air

Once the fuel flows without bubbles from each injector you are ready to start the silver beast... With the throttle still in the full open start the engine normally.. Several attempts may be needed... take your time. CAUTION: DO NOT crank the engine for long periods of time. Excessive cranking will cause the starter to over heat and will fill the exhaust with sea water. Good luckGarner

Stu Jackson · May 16, 2007

PLEASE Stop with comparisons

of different engines and manufacturers.He asked about an M25 and that's what we're discussing.OK, OK, lotsa people have different engines and maybe some have or don't have fuel pumps.To continue, then let's please identify the engines we have, because a completely perfect description of your engine may not apply to a different machine.Thanks.

Stu Jackson · May 16, 2007

PLEASE Stop with comparisons

of different engines and manufacturers.He asked about an M25 and that's what we're discussing.OK, OK, lotsa people have different engines and maybe some have or don't have fuel pumps.To continue, then let's please identify the engines we have, because a completely perfect description of your engine may not apply to a different machine.Thanks.

Don S/V ILLusion · May 16, 2007

to be clear re: fuel line bleeding

This is the q to which I am responding:"i guess my question now, I'm sure it has been ansawerd but how to bleed the High presure side? I crake the nuts on the injectors, start to turn over the engine, and then close them once fuel is exiting throught the top of the injector. Is this correct?"The answer is the same regardless of what engine you have - YES. Just make sure you do so with the last injector in the line.Paranthetically, installation of a secondary pump as someone described is of limited value. If you think of the fuel feed system as actually two systems, the secondary elec or manual owner-added pump can only feed the low pressure side which can help bleed the primary filter only.

Don S/V ILLusion · May 16, 2007

to be clear re: fuel line bleeding

This is the q to which I am responding:"i guess my question now, I'm sure it has been ansawerd but how to bleed the High presure side? I crake the nuts on the injectors, start to turn over the engine, and then close them once fuel is exiting throught the top of the injector. Is this correct?"The answer is the same regardless of what engine you have - YES. Just make sure you do so with the last injector in the line.Paranthetically, installation of a secondary pump as someone described is of limited value. If you think of the fuel feed system as actually two systems, the secondary elec or manual owner-added pump can only feed the low pressure side which can help bleed the primary filter only.

Stu Jackson · May 17, 2007

Except, Don, that's NOT how an M25

works. All this talk of high and low pressure sides may actually exist on an M25, but have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the bleeding procedures for this PARTICULAR engine. That's why I mentioned my concerns in my last post, trying to "de-confuse" jaydog

Stu Jackson · May 17, 2007

Except, Don, that's NOT how an M25

works. All this talk of high and low pressure sides may actually exist on an M25, but have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the bleeding procedures for this PARTICULAR engine. That's why I mentioned my concerns in my last post, trying to "de-confuse" jaydog

sailaway78 · May 17, 2007

WRONG WRONG WRONG

I don't know where some of you are getting information, but you can bleed the entire system with the electric pump. You can bleed it with the mechanical pump and you can bleed it with the electric pump. The instructions on every motor I have read, which I will admit isn't all of them, say nothing about cranking the engine over. Tells you to use the mechanical pump to bleed the system. I have done this on my Yanmar, and I have done it on a 40 hp, 4 cylinder Westerbeke. So I know it works. I would not recommend cranking the engine to bleed the system. As others have stated you can fill the muffler and cause some significant engine damage this way if you aren't careful. Also I personally wouldn't want to be grinding on a starter motor that much. Starters are not continious duty devices, and get hot pretty quickly. If you don't believe me, ask Tony B. who posts on this board, and has an Allied 39, with the mentioned Westerbeke. We had some fuel problems on his boat in the gulf, and I bled it not once but twice. I would defy anyone to manually bleed a fuel system, off shore in 8 foot seas. The Westerbeke has two bleed screws on the high pressure pump, and it isn't necessary to crack the fuel lines at the injectors. Because the injector pump pumps more pressure then the feed pump, does not mean that the low pressure pump will not pump through the high pressure pump. The electric pump will bleed the entire system. Put it right at the tank, and you are able to bleed the ENTIRE system with it.

sailaway78 · May 17, 2007

WRONG WRONG WRONG

I don't know where some of you are getting information, but you can bleed the entire system with the electric pump. You can bleed it with the mechanical pump and you can bleed it with the electric pump. The instructions on every motor I have read, which I will admit isn't all of them, say nothing about cranking the engine over. Tells you to use the mechanical pump to bleed the system. I have done this on my Yanmar, and I have done it on a 40 hp, 4 cylinder Westerbeke. So I know it works. I would not recommend cranking the engine to bleed the system. As others have stated you can fill the muffler and cause some significant engine damage this way if you aren't careful. Also I personally wouldn't want to be grinding on a starter motor that much. Starters are not continious duty devices, and get hot pretty quickly. If you don't believe me, ask Tony B. who posts on this board, and has an Allied 39, with the mentioned Westerbeke. We had some fuel problems on his boat in the gulf, and I bled it not once but twice. I would defy anyone to manually bleed a fuel system, off shore in 8 foot seas. The Westerbeke has two bleed screws on the high pressure pump, and it isn't necessary to crack the fuel lines at the injectors. Because the injector pump pumps more pressure then the feed pump, does not mean that the low pressure pump will not pump through the high pressure pump. The electric pump will bleed the entire system. Put it right at the tank, and you are able to bleed the ENTIRE system with it.

Don S/V ILLusion · May 17, 2007

Not necessarily "wrong"

About the ONLY differecne between engines is the fact that some high pressure pumps are self bleeding. The following is an excerpt from an M-25 service manual:"Open the small BLEED SCREW on top of the engine mounted fuel filter and operate the fuel lift pump by hand. After the fuel filter has been purged of air, close the bleed screw (don't do it too tight, it's only little) and open the one on the fuel injection pump. Again, after the air has been purged, close the bleed screw. The engine should now start, if not you will have to bleed the high pressure side as follows: Crack the pipe nut at each injector, open the decompression levers and rotate the engine with the starter motor.When the air appears to have been purged (the fuel looks clear, not whitish), tighten the nuts firmly, close the decompression levers and start the engine. Check for leaks and clean up any spilt fuel."This is almost a verbatim description from my Yanmar manual as well.

Don S/V ILLusion · May 17, 2007

Not necessarily "wrong"

About the ONLY differecne between engines is the fact that some high pressure pumps are self bleeding. The following is an excerpt from an M-25 service manual:"Open the small BLEED SCREW on top of the engine mounted fuel filter and operate the fuel lift pump by hand. After the fuel filter has been purged of air, close the bleed screw (don't do it too tight, it's only little) and open the one on the fuel injection pump. Again, after the air has been purged, close the bleed screw. The engine should now start, if not you will have to bleed the high pressure side as follows: Crack the pipe nut at each injector, open the decompression levers and rotate the engine with the starter motor.When the air appears to have been purged (the fuel looks clear, not whitish), tighten the nuts firmly, close the decompression levers and start the engine. Check for leaks and clean up any spilt fuel."This is almost a verbatim description from my Yanmar manual as well.

Stu Jackson · May 17, 2007

Here's the M25

procedures from marinedieseldirect: http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/universal/200157/universal-owners-manual-bleeding-fuel-system.html, also same link below in case this link is too longFor jaydog's information, what Don posted is IF you replace the secondary engine mounted filter, that's the "small BLEED SCREW on top of the engine mounted fuel filter and operate the fuel lift pump by hand." However, you should use the electric fuel pump, NOT the fuel pump by hand thingy. And, contrary to what C30 owners keep using, the decompression lever, we NEVER go anywhere near it.So, jaydog, PLEASE re-read the references I gave you in Post #7. Nice n Easy is right, too. And Don's right too, because you said in your question that you replaced BOTH filters.You do NOT need to crank the engine for bleeding an M25. You only need to do Step 5 below ONLY IF you replaced the engine mounted filter. If you only replaced the Racor, you do NOT need to do Steps 5 or 6. If you did, you do.In almost 9 years, I have NEVER heard of anyone needing to back off the injectors to bleed an M25. If you poke around our website, see next paragraph, you'll find some discussion about this and we concluded that it is just NOT necessary.Good luck, and feel free to wander around the C34 website message board, do a search on BLEEDING and you'll learn how we (over 700 C34 owners with Universal engines) came to the conclusions noted in my post #7.Thanks to all.StuPS -- ADDED A FEW HOURS LATER: Item 7 IS the "knurled knob" discussed in the C34 website reference in post #7. Also see Item 8 below, which says exactly that, although it would have been helpful if the wording in Item 8 were included in Item 7. Clear now????

****************************************BLEEDING PROCEDURE:Be sure to have some means available to catch or absorb any fuel escaping during the bleeding process so that it will not accumulate in the engine compartment or bilge.1. Be sure there is a sufficient supply of fuel in the fuel tank.2. Open the fuel shut-off valve at the tank.3. Start the electric fuel pump by turning the ignition key to the "ON" position on models 18,20, 25, 30, 50, all models after 1986.4. Model 15 has a mechanical fuel pump. Therefore with decompression on, turn engine over with starter. Crank at 10 second intervals while doing steps #5 and 7.5. Slowly loosen the air bleed plug on the fuel filter, letting air escape until an air free flow of fuel is evident. (1986 models see item 7).6. At this time, tighten the air bleed plug on the filter.7. Slowly loosen the air bleed plug on the injector pump, letting air escape until an air free flow of fuel is evident. Units with a self bleed return valve, open for a short period then start engine, as soon as engine runs smooth close valve. Model-12 has continuous fuel bleeding.8. At this time, tighten the air bleed plug or knurled knob on the injector pump.9. The fuel system should now be properly bled and ready for operation.Refer to starting instructions before attempting to start the engine after bleeding the fuel system.CAUTION: Excessive cranking with sea cock valve open can cause water accumulation in the muffler and possibly back up into the engine. Drain muffler as needed.

Stu Jackson · May 17, 2007

Here's the M25

procedures from marinedieseldirect: http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/universal/200157/universal-owners-manual-bleeding-fuel-system.html, also same link below in case this link is too longFor jaydog's information, what Don posted is IF you replace the secondary engine mounted filter, that's the "small BLEED SCREW on top of the engine mounted fuel filter and operate the fuel lift pump by hand." However, you should use the electric fuel pump, NOT the fuel pump by hand thingy. And, contrary to what C30 owners keep using, the decompression lever, we NEVER go anywhere near it.So, jaydog, PLEASE re-read the references I gave you in Post #7. Nice n Easy is right, too. And Don's right too, because you said in your question that you replaced BOTH filters.You do NOT need to crank the engine for bleeding an M25. You only need to do Step 5 below ONLY IF you replaced the engine mounted filter. If you only replaced the Racor, you do NOT need to do Steps 5 or 6. If you did, you do.In almost 9 years, I have NEVER heard of anyone needing to back off the injectors to bleed an M25. If you poke around our website, see next paragraph, you'll find some discussion about this and we concluded that it is just NOT necessary.Good luck, and feel free to wander around the C34 website message board, do a search on BLEEDING and you'll learn how we (over 700 C34 owners with Universal engines) came to the conclusions noted in my post #7.Thanks to all.StuPS -- ADDED A FEW HOURS LATER: Item 7 IS the "knurled knob" discussed in the C34 website reference in post #7. Also see Item 8 below, which says exactly that, although it would have been helpful if the wording in Item 8 were included in Item 7. Clear now????

****************************************BLEEDING PROCEDURE:Be sure to have some means available to catch or absorb any fuel escaping during the bleeding process so that it will not accumulate in the engine compartment or bilge.1. Be sure there is a sufficient supply of fuel in the fuel tank.2. Open the fuel shut-off valve at the tank.3. Start the electric fuel pump by turning the ignition key to the "ON" position on models 18,20, 25, 30, 50, all models after 1986.4. Model 15 has a mechanical fuel pump. Therefore with decompression on, turn engine over with starter. Crank at 10 second intervals while doing steps #5 and 7.5. Slowly loosen the air bleed plug on the fuel filter, letting air escape until an air free flow of fuel is evident. (1986 models see item 7).6. At this time, tighten the air bleed plug on the filter.7. Slowly loosen the air bleed plug on the injector pump, letting air escape until an air free flow of fuel is evident. Units with a self bleed return valve, open for a short period then start engine, as soon as engine runs smooth close valve. Model-12 has continuous fuel bleeding.8. At this time, tighten the air bleed plug or knurled knob on the injector pump.9. The fuel system should now be properly bled and ready for operation.Refer to starting instructions before attempting to start the engine after bleeding the fuel system.CAUTION: Excessive cranking with sea cock valve open can cause water accumulation in the muffler and possibly back up into the engine. Drain muffler as needed.

sailaway78 · May 17, 2007

Stu nailed it

Stu nailed it,Unless you for some reason open the system on the high pressure side, you need not worry about bleeding the injector lines. I am not familiar with the pumps on the Universal. But in this case it makes no difference. You opened the system at the filters. So there is no reason for air to be in the lines, or pump, past the filters. The bleed screws will handle this. And again, the only purpose of using an electric pump is for the ease of use. There are other advantages sometimes, but the primary purpose is to not have to use the manual thing when needed.It does exactly the same thing as the manual lift pump. I think some on here read the books, but do not apply any common sense to the problem. Under real life conditions, air only gets into the system where you open it. Air can not migrate through the filters, high pressure pump and into the high pressure side of the system. If you don't open the high pressure side, it doesn't need to be bled. One last thought. The injector fittings, at least on the Yanmars, are a flared fitting. These can be difficult to break loose. If they haven't been cracked in a long time, chances are at least 50/50 you will screw one up when breaking them loose.

sailaway78 · May 17, 2007

Stu nailed it

Stu nailed it,Unless you for some reason open the system on the high pressure side, you need not worry about bleeding the injector lines. I am not familiar with the pumps on the Universal. But in this case it makes no difference. You opened the system at the filters. So there is no reason for air to be in the lines, or pump, past the filters. The bleed screws will handle this. And again, the only purpose of using an electric pump is for the ease of use. There are other advantages sometimes, but the primary purpose is to not have to use the manual thing when needed.It does exactly the same thing as the manual lift pump. I think some on here read the books, but do not apply any common sense to the problem. Under real life conditions, air only gets into the system where you open it. Air can not migrate through the filters, high pressure pump and into the high pressure side of the system. If you don't open the high pressure side, it doesn't need to be bled. One last thought. The injector fittings, at least on the Yanmars, are a flared fitting. These can be difficult to break loose. If they haven't been cracked in a long time, chances are at least 50/50 you will screw one up when breaking them loose.