Diesel Fuel Additives ???

[Maine Sail]

Hi All,

Ok, for years I'd been using fuel additives for my diesel and bought into all the "stuff" they claim to do. Well last year, for some reason, about half way through the summer I stopped.

I've since changed my fuel filters twice and noticed no discernible difference in the condition of the filters, a 10 micron primary and a 3 micron secondary. The minimal soot I get on my transom is still the same too.

I had tried all of them over the years but was using Soltron/Startron last and prior to that some "cetane" boosters, Pri-D etc. etc..

I have been researching and come up with no real hard scientific evidence that any of these things, really do much to already clean fuel. If someone can point me to some real data, as done by an engine manufacturer, such as Cummins, Cat, Yanmar, Mann etc. etc. and NOT done by the maker of the magic potion, I'll switch back to using them in a heart beat.

Perhaps I'm just not looking in the right places for these studies?? My own very un-scientific study shows me no difference...??

 

[Warren Milberg]

I'm "sort of" with you....

I have had more or less the same experience with diesel fuel additives in my Yanmar 2GM20F, that is, I have been using a dash of Pri-D and a cetane booster (fuel I buy locally has a rating of 40 and the manual calls for 45). My annually changed 10 mic primary is only minimally dirty when changed (usually after about 50-60 hrs of engine use in a typical season). I stopped changing the 2-mic secondary when I noted it was always pristine. I now change that after 2 seasons (and it's still clean then, but I worry about it deteriorating).

I spend a bit of effort to try to buy and use the "freshest" diesel I can find (from a very busy local Hess station). I use a West water/crud separating filter right there at the pump when I fill a gerry can with fuel. I refilter (decant perhaps?) again into another jug that I take to the boat. When pouring it into my tank, I use a separate filter I keep on the boat that has a fine mesh screen. I hold a piece of nylon stocking over the spout when pouring fuel into the tank from the jug.

Do I need the additives? I don't really know. May be it's like crumpling the front page of the newspaper and tossing it over your left shoulder to avoid being bitten by sabre tooth tigers. I have never been bitten by either a tiger or bad fuel....

Perhaps the physicians motto applies: "First To No Harm."

I, too, would be interested in objective data on this topic, if any is available.

 

[Dave from Mi.]

Additives!

Hi Maine Sail;

I have never seen any "proof" that any additives have a positive effect on anything but the makers cash flow! The engine makers would loudly proclaim anything that would enhance their products and I have yet to see any of them recommend anything other than VERY CLEAN FUEL.

Fair winds
Dave

 

[tommays]

Well

Wiki says

Algae, microbes, and water

There has been much discussion and misinformation about algae in diesel fuel[citation needed]. Algae require sunlight to live and grow. As there is no sunlight in a closed fuel tank, no algae can survive there. However, some microbes can survive there, and can feed on the diesel fuel.

These microbes form a colony that lives at the fuel/water interface. They grow quite rapidly in warmer temperatures. They can even grow in cold weather when fuel tank heaters are installed. Parts of the colony can break off and clog the fuel lines and fuel filters.

It is possible to either kill this growth with a biocide treatment, or eliminate the water, a necessary component of microbial life. There are a number of biocides on the market, which must be handled very carefully. If a biocide is used, it must be added every time a tank is refilled until the problem is fully resolved.

Biocides attack the cell wall of microbes resulting in lysis, the death of a cell by bursting. The dead cells then gather on the bottom of the fuel tanks and form a sludge, filter clogging will continue after biocide treatment until the sludge has abated.

Given the right conditions microbes will repopulate the tanks and re-treatment with biocides will then be necessary. With repetitive biocide treatments microbes can then form resistance to a particular brand.[citation needed] Trying another brand may resolve this.


Tommays

 

[kloudie1]

Diesel Additives

FUEL ADDITIVES.. You really need to put in an anti-wear additive with today’s diesel. The sulfur in the diesel of old acted as an “extreme pressure” lubricant which reduces wear in the HP injection pump. Today’s diesel, especially if you buy normal road diesel, has so little sulfur that the injection pump WILL wear out prematurely. It is expensive to replace! Newer diesels, built after about 2000 have upgraded injection pumps and have no problem with ULSD.. (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel which was mandated by the EPA)

 

[sailaway78]

Additives

I use a biocide and an injector cleaner. Every other tank I add one of these, and the next tank the other. Living in a warm climate I worry somewhat about the little bugs growing in the diesel tank. With the injector cleaner I did notice a little improvement in engine performance when I first started using it. I too change filters annually, and they come out pretty clean. While I have no proof that my system works any better than any other, or doesn't work at all, I'm comfortable with what I am doing, so will continue to do so.

 

[Patrick S/V Shangra-La]

Biocide in mine

Mine is a 2000, the P O and I both used the biocide and I've never had a problem. The P O if my last boat did not use it and I had to have the tank cleaned and replace the fuel line because of bacterial growth, so here in Florida I strongly recommend a biocide.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

don't think you'll find any

I seriously doubt you'll find any empirical data demonstrating the efficacy of any fuel additive simply because there aren't any data with one exception, that being cetane booster. There is sufficient data from product testing and in-house QA at all refineries indicating that the cetane levels produced in U.S. production is below that recommended by some engine mfgs. With that exception, I think all you'll find is myth and marketing hype, some of which you see here in previous posts on the subject about algae, lubricating additives, etc...

By the way, I assume you know that most eng mfgs recommend a 30 micron rather than a 10 micron primary

 

[Buck2796]

Good Question

Like most of us, I've been using (FPPF) additives since I commissioned my Hunter 8 years ago, (Yanmar 4JH2T).
I have done so because the (highly respected) service dept at Norton's Yacht Sales informed all buyers that the use of FPPF additives was recommended by Yanmar.

In their catalog, Mac Boring, states, "Yanmar recommends FPPF additives".

However, like you, I have my doubts as to how benificial and necessary most of these additives really are.
They certainly don't prevent the accumulation of "gunky water stuff" in the bottom of my fuel tank (and Racor).
Their use or non use doesn't seem to change the amt of "sooty smoke" exhaust, nor did their use prevent having to replace the injectors after 2500hrs.

I don't seem to have pumped any bacterial gunk off the bottom of the tank, so prehaps the "Killim" has been effective.
I will continue to use it, and the "Cetaine 8+" and "Lubricity", not because I have seen any difinative studies that show they are really necessary, but, simply because Yanmar (apparently) recommends them.

But then, articles like the link below make one wonder.

http://forums.torresen.com/sailing/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3454

 

[J Page]

Deisel seminars

I've taken a few diesel seminars at Torresen Marine ( Marine diesel direct) and Brian states that they, as a rule, don't rec. any fuel additives as they have no conclusive proof that they do any of the claims they state. Brian says the best practice is to buy the freshest, water free fuel you can find( not always at the marine gas dock as they may only get 2 fuel shipments a year), keep your tanks full to prevent condensation, and if alge growth is a continual problem, to empty and clean the tank by hand if possible. They said they do more fuel system repairs from owners not using additives correctly and gumming up/damageing their systems. This advice was given accross all make of motors. The advice that yanmar now rec. an additive is news to me. What was the source of this advice? Mack Boring? Yanmar itself?

Pray for Wind,
Lugeman

 

[Mike B]

Yes to additives

I use an additive every time I fill up and haven't had any issues. I delivered a brand new trawler for a dealer last year and about an hour out it crapped out due to dirty fuel. The engine only had 10 hrs on it but the boat had been sitting for quite some time. When I got her restarted and ran back to the marina they changed the filters which were black. The fuel that was in it came from the same marina, which pumps their fare share of it. I presume it was clean when it when in the boat. The svc mgr and techs both felt it was due to fuel sitting for too long. I'm going to continue to use an additive based on that as well as experience with my own boat.
Mike
Mike

 

[Deadline]

Soot discovery

I backed down my Cetane from 8 to 4 to see if it would lessen the soot on the transom of my 18 2GM20 on 320H. What really worked was removing the back panel of the engine compartment, because the engine was starving for air. You'll never guess where I got this tip: Yanmar manual!

 

[Maine Sail]

I've spoken..

Quote: "By the way, I assume you know that most eng mfgs recommend a 30 micron rather than a 10 micron primary"



I've spoken with both Westerbeke and Parker filtration (Racor) tech support about this before. Here's what they said.

#1 My secondary is a 3 micron though not stated in any of their literature that is what it is and they only make it in a 3 micron.

#2 I can use either a 10 micron or a 30 micron primary with my Racor 500 and will have no problem. The only problem that may arise is that going straight from a 30 to a 3 will plug the secondary faster than using a 10 to 3 ratio. If they made a 15 or 20 I'd use that but they don't.

#3 The folks at Parker filtration and Westerbeke both agree that a 10 to 3 is a good balance as long as you have clean fuel & a clean tank which I do. I change my filters at 50-60 hours regardless and they still usually look perfect though the 10 primary is sort of a redish brown but the 3 is still yellow.




I know 50-60 is overkill but it's cheap insurance. I suppose I could change my secondary every other but why..? Having changed diesel filters in lumpy seas, upside down, while sniffing diesel is not something I want to ever do again. I've been using both 10 & 30 primary's for years but once I got a solid answer as to what my secondary was, a 3 micron, I switched to a 10 micron primary.

 

[MoonSailer]

Fresh Fuel is Best

I NEVER fill my tank!!!!!! I keep it about 1/4- full unless taking a trip. There is no advantage to topping off a diesel tank. I fyou are like me and use less than a gallon of fuel a month then filling a 24 gallon tank makes your average age of your fuel about 2 years old!!!!!! No good comes from using 2 year old fuel!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a myth about condensation forming in recreational boats DIESEL fuel tanks.

 

[Ross]

I guess that I am the odd man out here . This spring

I changed my fuel filters because they were 9 years old. I had only used about 100 gallons o fuel during that time and the glass sediment bowl was clean. But I followed peer pressure and made the change. I always buy automotive diesel at the station where I buy gasoline. I keep a jerry can on deck and have a ten gallon tank. I started the engine today after it had been sitting for a month. It was running after about 3 turns of cranking. Never add anything to the fuel and don't throw any away at the end of the season.

 

[Bob16841]

Incorrect Information

MoonSailer:
"Fresh Fuel is Best
I NEVER fill my tank!!!!!! I keep it about 1/4- full unless taking a trip. There is no advantage to topping off a diesel tank. I fyou are like me and use less than a gallon of fuel a month then filling a 24 gallon tank makes your average age of your fuel about 2 years old!!!!!! No good comes from using 2 year old fuel!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a myth about condensation forming in recreational boats DIESEL fuel tanks."

There is lots of good and lots of bad information on this forum. The above is the latter. Ask any pilot (who parks his airplane outside) and he will tell you it is critical that the tanks be topped off prior to leaving it parked. The constant cycle of heating/cooling results in condensation inside the fuel tank (where there is no fuel)...bottom line is water in the fuel. Old fuel burns fine as long as a stabilizer is used, and if diesel, a biocide.

 

[MoonSailer]

BoB Planes Use GASOLINE!!!!!!!!!!!

GEEZ you would think that someone as smart as Bob would know that diesel is not the same as gasoline. Also that an airplane is not a boat!!!! Consider the differences. Gasoline is very volatile diesel is much less so. Airplanes use wind tanks and are made of aluminun often parked out in full sunlight. Boats are usually in warm water made of fiberglass with te fuel tank low in the bilge where the temperatures change little any given 24 hout period. DUH!!! It is kind of like talking about horses and you saying my elephant doesn't do that!!!!

 

[Maine Sail]

Moon..

It depends on where in the country you reside. I can assure you Pascoe's advise holds ZERO water in a Maine winter. Either empty the tank totally or fill it totally or you WILL get condensation in the Northern climes. Temperatures inside boats in a Maine winter cans swing more than 50+ degrees in 24 hours. This is just straight physics and condensation in tanks does occur Pascoe shows this in his own explanation but then chooses to minimize the effect of it..

 

[MoonSailer]

Maine the Problem is

totally saturated air has little water. Cold air holds much less water than warm air. Also it is not a one way trip!!!!! When the tank is warmer than outside water moves out of the tank. Also at night the night air outside cools off more quickly so that by the time the tank cools the air is dryer!!!! Do a simple experiment put a little diesel into a jar and leave the lid open enough to vent. Leave it sitting protected from rain and see how quickly the jar fills with water!!!!
I don't have the numbers in front of me right now but air does not expand and contract but a few percent over a wide temperature change. maybe if you have a thousand gallon tank there might be some condensation. But in a 20 gallon tank 1/4 full the amount of air change with a dramatic temperature shift might be a quart. And a quart of air fully saturated might have one drop of water. Also to get that drop of water you have to drop the temperature very low....and even then you won't get it all. Water saturation is proportional to absolute temperature. you known absolute zero is 273 degrees below zero celciuis.
finally you have to balance a little water versus very old fuel!!!!! Which is better???? A quart of water over a winter and fuel that is less than a few months old or drier fuel that is a couple of years old????? even the oil companies don't recommend storing diesel for years!!!!! Also the oil companies that I have read don't recommend additives . But logic and reason don't count for much in this world. Myths and ledgends carry more weight for most people.

 

[Maine Sail]

Umm..

I drain my tank completely every winter and burn it in my boiler at home so I have no worries about moisture in my tanks I also plug the vent once it's drained.

I have seen the condensation occur in my barn many times. I simply go out there and flip on the pellet stove and anything with mass, like the floor or the heavy cast iron table of my table saw, quickly gets a layer of condensate. Cold fuel in a tank acts as a mass. I've seen it with beer bottles left on my work bench too..

Contrary to popular belief cold air can contain moisture trust me I regularly see humidity levels at 40-50% even at 30 degrees in February. Shrinked wrapped boats stored close to un-frozen water (Ocean) under tarps heat up rapidly as the sun hits them and many surfaces will condensate not just the inside of the tank but also the outside of the tank adjacent to the level of fuel in there.

Temp differentials with rapid changes and moist air will cause condensation just look at how your toilet and cold water pipes sweat due to this differential.