Here is my problem. I have put a deposit on a 1993 31' Beneteau and part of the boat check was to have the engine started and run for 15-20 minutes on dry land. Keep in mind this is Cape Cod in January although the temperature that day was in the 50's. The engine had not been started for at least a year. It is an 18hp Volvo diesel with a closed fresh water system and raw water cooling. I told the broker I did not want the engine started until I was present to observe how it started. As you can guess it was started the day before by the boatyards carpenter. Yes I said carpenter. He told me that it took a long time to start. I also noted that it took about one minute of turning over before ir reluctantly started. He had a 5 gallon jug of water hooked up to the raw water cooling intake. He thought it was just raw water cooled. It ran about 3 or 4 minutes and he shut it down because the water supply was gone. I told the broker that that was unacceptable, so she said that she would have the mechanic set the engine up to be run for a longer period of time. I left and came back to find that the mechanic had attached a garden hose with domestic water pressure (about 40 psi) to the raw water intake. He then tried to start the engine but it would not even turn over, just made a humming sound. He thought the battery was dead so he tried a fully charged battery, but it still would not turn over. It seems to me that you should not use a pressurized water supply hooked up to the raw water intake, because wouldn't the water enter the cylinders through the exhaust manifold and cause the the engine to try to compress the water when trying to start the engine? This would be a good reason for the engine to not turn over the second time when the mechanic tried to start it. Sounds to me that I should get my deposit back. What do you think? Any Marine Diesel Mechanics out there? I need an answer as soon as possible. Thanks in advance. Norm Hildreth
Diesel Engine problem
- Thread starter Norm H
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Engine out of water
When you want to start a desiel engine out of the water, disconnect the water pump. You can then run the engine for 15 or 20 minutes without doing any harm.
When you want to start a desiel engine out of the water, disconnect the water pump. You can then run the engine for 15 or 20 minutes without doing any harm.
reduce h2o pressure
I remove raw h2o hose from thru hull push a garden nozzle into hose and use a yellow flow adjuster on hose. A hose clamp will hold it on . Why reduce pressure? You can damage the impeller and supply to much h2o .This can lead to flooding the wet exaust and having h2o getting into the engine .
I remove raw h2o hose from thru hull push a garden nozzle into hose and use a yellow flow adjuster on hose. A hose clamp will hold it on . Why reduce pressure? You can damage the impeller and supply to much h2o .This can lead to flooding the wet exaust and having h2o getting into the engine .
Norm...
Unfortunately, you seem to have lost control of a situation in which you should be in full control. Seems like a number of people, i.e., your broker (who should be representing your interests), mechanics, carpenters, etc., have just decided to do whatever they feel like doing with a boat you may buy. IMHO, you have a number of choices: (1) get your deposit back and look for another boat as the conditions you stipulated have been violated; (2) get your own diesel mechanic to meet you at the boat and try to start/evaluate the engine; or (3) with a fully charged battery (which you may want to bring with you) and the raw water intake hose in a large bucket of water which also has a hose from a fresh water supply in it to keep it full, you try to start the engine. This could be your future boat and so starting the engine is gonna be your job anyway. To help things along on a cold winter day, you may want to also bring a small ceramic heater or hair dryer and let that blow some warm air into the air intake while trying the starter -- as some diesels are cold hearted beasts. Finally, see what you can find out about the condition of the fuel in the boat. How old is it? Has it been conditioned to keep it from gelling in the cold, etc. Good luck.
Unfortunately, you seem to have lost control of a situation in which you should be in full control. Seems like a number of people, i.e., your broker (who should be representing your interests), mechanics, carpenters, etc., have just decided to do whatever they feel like doing with a boat you may buy. IMHO, you have a number of choices: (1) get your deposit back and look for another boat as the conditions you stipulated have been violated; (2) get your own diesel mechanic to meet you at the boat and try to start/evaluate the engine; or (3) with a fully charged battery (which you may want to bring with you) and the raw water intake hose in a large bucket of water which also has a hose from a fresh water supply in it to keep it full, you try to start the engine. This could be your future boat and so starting the engine is gonna be your job anyway. To help things along on a cold winter day, you may want to also bring a small ceramic heater or hair dryer and let that blow some warm air into the air intake while trying the starter -- as some diesels are cold hearted beasts. Finally, see what you can find out about the condition of the fuel in the boat. How old is it? Has it been conditioned to keep it from gelling in the cold, etc. Good luck.
Bad Mistake
Last year, I tried the Pressurized water,but just from a Marina water line. The engine started, but then I noticed I had no water coming out of the exhaust. I shut it down quickly and went below to see what was going on,and saw water pouring out of the Engine. At first I thought maybe a pump hose had ruptured (it was the middle of Winter). After closer observation, it was coming out of the Air Cleaner. PURE SHOCK. I took the Air Cleaner off,and use Paper towel to get as much water out as I could. Then I shut off the fuel to the engine and opened the decompression levers. I then cranked the engine over hoping to send what water was left out the exhaust. The next morning, I contacted a Good Yanmar mechanic and discussed my options. I thought the Engine was gone. He told me it has happened before with sometimes negative results. There is a Check-valve in the water engine system, and I overoad it by useing High pressure water. He said for now, dont hook up water to it and just try to start it. If it turns over real hard, I might have bent a rod so shut it down and call him. After a few tries, mine started. I then ran water into a bucket, put my water intake hose in it, and ran the engine for about 5 minutes. Boy was I lucky. That was last year. The engine ran great all of 2004. My Boat is a 1988 Legend 35,with a Yanmar Engine.
Last year, I tried the Pressurized water,but just from a Marina water line. The engine started, but then I noticed I had no water coming out of the exhaust. I shut it down quickly and went below to see what was going on,and saw water pouring out of the Engine. At first I thought maybe a pump hose had ruptured (it was the middle of Winter). After closer observation, it was coming out of the Air Cleaner. PURE SHOCK. I took the Air Cleaner off,and use Paper towel to get as much water out as I could. Then I shut off the fuel to the engine and opened the decompression levers. I then cranked the engine over hoping to send what water was left out the exhaust. The next morning, I contacted a Good Yanmar mechanic and discussed my options. I thought the Engine was gone. He told me it has happened before with sometimes negative results. There is a Check-valve in the water engine system, and I overoad it by useing High pressure water. He said for now, dont hook up water to it and just try to start it. If it turns over real hard, I might have bent a rod so shut it down and call him. After a few tries, mine started. I then ran water into a bucket, put my water intake hose in it, and ran the engine for about 5 minutes. Boy was I lucky. That was last year. The engine ran great all of 2004. My Boat is a 1988 Legend 35,with a Yanmar Engine.
Is that a 2002 diesel
Norm, good advice so far from the other posts. Around here the Volvo engines, in particular te 2002, have a reputation for being hard to stat in cold weather, so the suggestion to warm it up is a good one. Kevin
Norm, good advice so far from the other posts. Around here the Volvo engines, in particular te 2002, have a reputation for being hard to stat in cold weather, so the suggestion to warm it up is a good one. Kevin
I have a series 2001 volvo
that was getting increasingly hard to start. The cure was Too easy< "pull the stop cable all the way out and push it all the way back in advance the throttle and pust the button" It started inabot three turns.
that was getting increasingly hard to start. The cure was Too easy< "pull the stop cable all the way out and push it all the way back in advance the throttle and pust the button" It started inabot three turns.
In a closed cooling system
the raw water (water from outside the boat) never goes into the engine itself. It goes through a heat exchanger. You can pump all the water into it you want and all it will do is fill up your muffler. The only way water could possibly get back into the engine is if the muffler fills up and backs into exhaust manifold. This cannot happen if the engine is turning over. The compression will force the water out of the muffler. From your post you stated the engine was running and then a tech. put city water to the raw water intake. Then the engine would not turn at all. It sound like he did in fact fill the engine with water. This guy sounds like a wanna be. I would check the oil and see if it is Real high on the dipstick. This will confirm if engine is water locked. All is not lost though, most times you can drain and change the oil, take out the injectors and turn the engine over to blow any water out. Put the injectors back and fire her up. The starter should notbe strong enough to bend a rod. Fair Winds cap'n dave
the raw water (water from outside the boat) never goes into the engine itself. It goes through a heat exchanger. You can pump all the water into it you want and all it will do is fill up your muffler. The only way water could possibly get back into the engine is if the muffler fills up and backs into exhaust manifold. This cannot happen if the engine is turning over. The compression will force the water out of the muffler. From your post you stated the engine was running and then a tech. put city water to the raw water intake. Then the engine would not turn at all. It sound like he did in fact fill the engine with water. This guy sounds like a wanna be. I would check the oil and see if it is Real high on the dipstick. This will confirm if engine is water locked. All is not lost though, most times you can drain and change the oil, take out the injectors and turn the engine over to blow any water out. Put the injectors back and fire her up. The starter should notbe strong enough to bend a rod. Fair Winds cap'n dave
Engine Survey
I think an engine survey is now in order and the broker should pay for it. Just make sure, you get to select the person to do the survey. Good Luck
I think an engine survey is now in order and the broker should pay for it. Just make sure, you get to select the person to do the survey. Good Luck
Volvo's seem to be a little hard to start.
Norm: From my limited experience with the Volvo marine engines, they do seem to be a little more difficult to start when they are cold. They also tend to smoke a little more than some other engines. These are not negative issues with the engines, they are just their attributes. We just had a survey on our new Hunter Vision 36 that was also on the hard. The engine was winterized too. Their method was to open the raw water strainer and keep the strainer full of water as the engine ran. When the process was done, they poured another gallon of RV anti-freeze into the strainer until it came out of the exhaust. Personally I do not think that running the engine without a load proves very much except that you know the engine will run. Without putting a load on it in the water, what have you really proved. I think that a run of 30-60 minutes at near wide open throttle is when you are going to find out if the oil pressure is going to drop, the engine is going to overheat etc. If you purchase this vessel, you may want to consider having a complete engine service done including valve adjustments, oil/filter & complete filter fuel filter change out. You should also replace the belts, impellers and air filters. If you are not comfortable doing these chores yourself, hire it done and be there when the mechanic does it. Ask him to show you how it is done. It can/will save you many hours of frustration in the future.
Norm: From my limited experience with the Volvo marine engines, they do seem to be a little more difficult to start when they are cold. They also tend to smoke a little more than some other engines. These are not negative issues with the engines, they are just their attributes. We just had a survey on our new Hunter Vision 36 that was also on the hard. The engine was winterized too. Their method was to open the raw water strainer and keep the strainer full of water as the engine ran. When the process was done, they poured another gallon of RV anti-freeze into the strainer until it came out of the exhaust. Personally I do not think that running the engine without a load proves very much except that you know the engine will run. Without putting a load on it in the water, what have you really proved. I think that a run of 30-60 minutes at near wide open throttle is when you are going to find out if the oil pressure is going to drop, the engine is going to overheat etc. If you purchase this vessel, you may want to consider having a complete engine service done including valve adjustments, oil/filter & complete filter fuel filter change out. You should also replace the belts, impellers and air filters. If you are not comfortable doing these chores yourself, hire it done and be there when the mechanic does it. Ask him to show you how it is done. It can/will save you many hours of frustration in the future.
engine delima
Norm, At this stage of the buying process I would demand that a $5000 escrow be held (by your attorney) on the engine pending a "in the water sea trial". There is something wrong with the engine. Be it a dead battery or some knuckle head filled it with water. IT is no longer your problem what ever it is. The owner and broker now have the problem. You have every right to walk away from this sale if that is what you want to do. If you want to proceed make sure you protect yourself. Demand a full in the water sea trial. No boat should be bought with out one (IMO). Or wait until spring to close on the boat after a sea trial. It is not that far away to April. You might want to mention to the broker that she failed you in your good faith efforts to purchase the boat by not accumulating your request to not start the engine until you were there.I also disagree with the post who said YOU were the problem. (bet he is a broker)It is your money and your choice to purchase the boat, that is why you had a survey done to examine the condition of the boat to see if it was acceptable to you. It is pretty clear that a boat with an engine that will not run is unacceptable (what ever the problem is)Let them fix the problem and call you when it is fixed. You might also want to have a independent mechanic check the engine over after it has been repaired,even if you have to pay for it. (I would fight that out with the broker)Bottom line is you can cancel the sale if you want (IMO) or proceed how ever you feel is satisfactory to YOU. There is always another boat, you don't need to be bullied around to buy this one. There is lots of good advice by other people who posted answers here also(except the one who blamed you). Good Luck ! Let us know the outcome!
Norm, At this stage of the buying process I would demand that a $5000 escrow be held (by your attorney) on the engine pending a "in the water sea trial". There is something wrong with the engine. Be it a dead battery or some knuckle head filled it with water. IT is no longer your problem what ever it is. The owner and broker now have the problem. You have every right to walk away from this sale if that is what you want to do. If you want to proceed make sure you protect yourself. Demand a full in the water sea trial. No boat should be bought with out one (IMO). Or wait until spring to close on the boat after a sea trial. It is not that far away to April. You might want to mention to the broker that she failed you in your good faith efforts to purchase the boat by not accumulating your request to not start the engine until you were there.I also disagree with the post who said YOU were the problem. (bet he is a broker)It is your money and your choice to purchase the boat, that is why you had a survey done to examine the condition of the boat to see if it was acceptable to you. It is pretty clear that a boat with an engine that will not run is unacceptable (what ever the problem is)Let them fix the problem and call you when it is fixed. You might also want to have a independent mechanic check the engine over after it has been repaired,even if you have to pay for it. (I would fight that out with the broker)Bottom line is you can cancel the sale if you want (IMO) or proceed how ever you feel is satisfactory to YOU. There is always another boat, you don't need to be bullied around to buy this one. There is lots of good advice by other people who posted answers here also(except the one who blamed you). Good Luck ! Let us know the outcome!
Sea trial before payment
Stop any payment until that is done. If the engine won't start now, that is not your fault. If you find that to be a problem after you buy it, you only have yourself to blame. Besides that, if the broker won't accomodate your reasonable request to be on hand when the engine is started, why would you trust her anyway?
Stop any payment until that is done. If the engine won't start now, that is not your fault. If you find that to be a problem after you buy it, you only have yourself to blame. Besides that, if the broker won't accomodate your reasonable request to be on hand when the engine is started, why would you trust her anyway?
Walk on this boat
I had a PO that was against dropping the Jib to check furler function of a furler , wouldnt let me fill the fresh water tank due to a leak , out right lied as to the decks being painted over gel coat , I WILL NEVER trust another seller , and the paper a survey is written isnt worth a cent , after the fact . So this is your baby .
I had a PO that was against dropping the Jib to check furler function of a furler , wouldnt let me fill the fresh water tank due to a leak , out right lied as to the decks being painted over gel coat , I WILL NEVER trust another seller , and the paper a survey is written isnt worth a cent , after the fact . So this is your baby .
Get Deposit Returned...
Seems some people can't follow directions. You wanted to be there when the engine was started... what part did they not understand? With the engine situation the way it is, and it would cost quite a bit to change an engine, I'd insist that the deposit be returned. Once you've got your money back, if you want to, you can start negotiations over again and talk some more but the longer they keep your deposit the less your chances are of getting it back. Cranking an engine full of water can be very harmful - talk to a surveyor and they will agree. As mentioned previously, there is the potential for a bent rod - or worse. Can a sea trial prove there is no engine damage? I doubt it. A slightly bent rod could take some time to reveal itself depending on the degree of damage. If you negotiate again maybe price in a new engine? If you don't buy it I pitty the sucker that comes after you. In today's world it seems there are so many people that "work for themselves" - if the broker is "your" broker, in theory, they're working for you, at least that's what they tell you when you walk in the door. In reality, many are looking at that commission - 5% or so? So the incentive to make the sale and somehow make you happy is there but I think the sale may be a little higher on the list of priorities. My opinion: Stop any further discussions and work on getting your money back. This way you can also find out if the broker is really working for you. Don't discuss what they can do to "make you happy" or what it would take to make this deal proceed - that will change the contract, muddy things up, and you could have a more difficult time weaseling out of it. Once you've got the deposit back (if that ever happens), then, if you still want the boat, get someone that doesn't stand to benefit financially with the transaction to work with you. If the engine is important then don't get a generalist - get a specialist, someone who really knows their stuff. Even then there's still no guarentee. In the meantime you can still talk to people like a Volvo retailer, factory rep, and the like, and even keep looking for another boat.
Seems some people can't follow directions. You wanted to be there when the engine was started... what part did they not understand? With the engine situation the way it is, and it would cost quite a bit to change an engine, I'd insist that the deposit be returned. Once you've got your money back, if you want to, you can start negotiations over again and talk some more but the longer they keep your deposit the less your chances are of getting it back. Cranking an engine full of water can be very harmful - talk to a surveyor and they will agree. As mentioned previously, there is the potential for a bent rod - or worse. Can a sea trial prove there is no engine damage? I doubt it. A slightly bent rod could take some time to reveal itself depending on the degree of damage. If you negotiate again maybe price in a new engine? If you don't buy it I pitty the sucker that comes after you. In today's world it seems there are so many people that "work for themselves" - if the broker is "your" broker, in theory, they're working for you, at least that's what they tell you when you walk in the door. In reality, many are looking at that commission - 5% or so? So the incentive to make the sale and somehow make you happy is there but I think the sale may be a little higher on the list of priorities. My opinion: Stop any further discussions and work on getting your money back. This way you can also find out if the broker is really working for you. Don't discuss what they can do to "make you happy" or what it would take to make this deal proceed - that will change the contract, muddy things up, and you could have a more difficult time weaseling out of it. Once you've got the deposit back (if that ever happens), then, if you still want the boat, get someone that doesn't stand to benefit financially with the transaction to work with you. If the engine is important then don't get a generalist - get a specialist, someone who really knows their stuff. Even then there's still no guarentee. In the meantime you can still talk to people like a Volvo retailer, factory rep, and the like, and even keep looking for another boat.
Norm, John Nantz is spot on.
What more can you say? If it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. Walk away. The biggest mistake a buyer can make is believing that the ONE boat they are looking at is a one-of-a-kind. Nonsense. You can walk down the block and find another. It's a buyer's market and don't let anyone tell you different. Go with your gut feeling. Even if absolutely everything checks out OK, you will wonder (in the very back of your mind) every time you run this engine and rely upon it if it will really be OK. Nobody wants that feeling. Walk away. Oh by the way, it works the same way with buying a car...
What more can you say? If it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. Walk away. The biggest mistake a buyer can make is believing that the ONE boat they are looking at is a one-of-a-kind. Nonsense. You can walk down the block and find another. It's a buyer's market and don't let anyone tell you different. Go with your gut feeling. Even if absolutely everything checks out OK, you will wonder (in the very back of your mind) every time you run this engine and rely upon it if it will really be OK. Nobody wants that feeling. Walk away. Oh by the way, it works the same way with buying a car...
getting deposit back
Norm it would appear that most think you should get your deposit back and look else where or at least start over on this deal. If getting the deposit back is a problem MOST brokers will not cash a check until after the sale is closed on.(check your account) You may be able to stop payment on the check if the broker gives you to much of a headache. If the money situation becomes extreme you can always bounce the check and deal with it that way,doubt the broker will have the nerve to press charges based on her bad behavior. I only say this because someone mentioned IF you ever get your money back. My second phone call today would be too the bank to stop payment of the deposit check if your first (call to the broker) is not satisfactory to you.Give the broker a chance to fix this but do it on YOUR terms. You might want to print this thread out and give it to the broker or at least make her aware of it and how to view it. Again Good Luck keep us updated ! !
Norm it would appear that most think you should get your deposit back and look else where or at least start over on this deal. If getting the deposit back is a problem MOST brokers will not cash a check until after the sale is closed on.(check your account) You may be able to stop payment on the check if the broker gives you to much of a headache. If the money situation becomes extreme you can always bounce the check and deal with it that way,doubt the broker will have the nerve to press charges based on her bad behavior. I only say this because someone mentioned IF you ever get your money back. My second phone call today would be too the bank to stop payment of the deposit check if your first (call to the broker) is not satisfactory to you.Give the broker a chance to fix this but do it on YOUR terms. You might want to print this thread out and give it to the broker or at least make her aware of it and how to view it. Again Good Luck keep us updated ! !
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