I'm shopping for a boat. I've been looking a lot, I'm just curious in general about what people feel about the different diesels. I've found a boat that has a 10 year old Westerbeke - I've had a few people tell me they're good engines but parts are hard to get and expensive. Yanmar was in 1 boat - good engines? parts more or less available or expensive? Last boat I just looked at had a 3 year old 18HP Universal. I haven't heard anything about universals. I know the maintenance is very impo. but engine for enging any better or worse diesel regarding reliability? parts? getting someone to work on one? Thanks in advance.
diesel "brands"
- Thread starter TI doug
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Most of the diesel engines are just fine.
Doug: Yanmars are very popular in the bay area. There are many very good engines available. Westerbekes, Universal and many of the other engines (like Yanmars) are tractor engines which have been marinized and relabeled. When you decide on a specific boat, you may want to get an "Engine Suvery" seperate from the marine survey. Most of these marine surveyors do not do any in depth survey of the engines. The engine surveyor should be able to shed some light on the brand that you purchase.
Doug: Yanmars are very popular in the bay area. There are many very good engines available. Westerbekes, Universal and many of the other engines (like Yanmars) are tractor engines which have been marinized and relabeled. When you decide on a specific boat, you may want to get an "Engine Suvery" seperate from the marine survey. Most of these marine surveyors do not do any in depth survey of the engines. The engine surveyor should be able to shed some light on the brand that you purchase.
Yanmars are big
Yanmar seems to dominate the sailboat market these days. Run them hard, don't skimp on power. Follow a routine maintenance schedule and they'll last forever. I'm told the Japanese engineered them to pump the rice paddies 24/7 so clearly they are built to last.
Yanmar seems to dominate the sailboat market these days. Run them hard, don't skimp on power. Follow a routine maintenance schedule and they'll last forever. I'm told the Japanese engineered them to pump the rice paddies 24/7 so clearly they are built to last.
Yanmar
The marine Yanmars are and were in fact designed as marine engines, at least from '80's+, not adapted from their tractors. Some other mfg are adapted to marine from industrial, but I'm not sure which. I have a mid 80's 14 hp. Yanmar tractor, and an '85 3GMF 21 hp. in my boat. The GM line was one of the longest running in manufacture. Excellent engines & pretty easy to service.
The marine Yanmars are and were in fact designed as marine engines, at least from '80's+, not adapted from their tractors. Some other mfg are adapted to marine from industrial, but I'm not sure which. I have a mid 80's 14 hp. Yanmar tractor, and an '85 3GMF 21 hp. in my boat. The GM line was one of the longest running in manufacture. Excellent engines & pretty easy to service.
I've owned 2 Yanmars, and now a Universal
My first Yanmar (1GM) was great...ran like a champ, although access to the water pump impeller was very difficult. My second Yanmar (2GM)was more of a problem due to hard starting in cold weather, but still not bad. I have had a Universal (now owned by Westerbeke) 25 XPB for one full season, and, so far, I love it! Runs smooth, starts easily etc. AND you can run it full-throttle (although I don't) for HOURS. My two previous Yanmars did not use a glo-plug. The Universal incorporates a more conventional glo-plug unit, and if I had my choice, I would go with the glo-plug set up. Both makes are good choices...although I really like the 3 cylinder 25XPB on my 31 foot boat.
My first Yanmar (1GM) was great...ran like a champ, although access to the water pump impeller was very difficult. My second Yanmar (2GM)was more of a problem due to hard starting in cold weather, but still not bad. I have had a Universal (now owned by Westerbeke) 25 XPB for one full season, and, so far, I love it! Runs smooth, starts easily etc. AND you can run it full-throttle (although I don't) for HOURS. My two previous Yanmars did not use a glo-plug. The Universal incorporates a more conventional glo-plug unit, and if I had my choice, I would go with the glo-plug set up. Both makes are good choices...although I really like the 3 cylinder 25XPB on my 31 foot boat.
diesels to die for
TI; I have a Perkins. Years ago they seemed to be in every production sailboat built, but they seem to have given way to Yanmar, which are supposed to be pretty good, tho they do turn fast, about 3600 cruising RPM. One thing I would do tho, is avoid turbocharging. Many engine builders, Yanmar among them, like to turbocharge an engine to get the maximum power from a small, lightweight package. I think a larger engine, turning slower, is the best way to gain longevity.
TI; I have a Perkins. Years ago they seemed to be in every production sailboat built, but they seem to have given way to Yanmar, which are supposed to be pretty good, tho they do turn fast, about 3600 cruising RPM. One thing I would do tho, is avoid turbocharging. Many engine builders, Yanmar among them, like to turbocharge an engine to get the maximum power from a small, lightweight package. I think a larger engine, turning slower, is the best way to gain longevity.
Westerbeke
Here are a few differences between Yanmar and Westerbeke, the only two I have any experience with. The Westerbeke has an electric fuel lift pump that provides self bleeding for the fuel system, so you'll never have that hassle to worry with when changing filters, etc. Just carry a spare pump. The Yanmar has a compression release lever that lets you spin the engine very easily, like if your battery is low, then release the lever to restore compression while its spinning and it starts right up. The Yanmars I've used have the impeller cover facing forward for easy access, while my Westerbeke faces aft and is hard to reach. The Westerbeke has an oil drain tube at the front of the engine making oil changes very easy. Overall, I'm very pleased with my Westerbeke, but my friends with Yanmars are just as happy. All of the engines mentioned have been around a long time and are very reliable. Your choice.
Here are a few differences between Yanmar and Westerbeke, the only two I have any experience with. The Westerbeke has an electric fuel lift pump that provides self bleeding for the fuel system, so you'll never have that hassle to worry with when changing filters, etc. Just carry a spare pump. The Yanmar has a compression release lever that lets you spin the engine very easily, like if your battery is low, then release the lever to restore compression while its spinning and it starts right up. The Yanmars I've used have the impeller cover facing forward for easy access, while my Westerbeke faces aft and is hard to reach. The Westerbeke has an oil drain tube at the front of the engine making oil changes very easy. Overall, I'm very pleased with my Westerbeke, but my friends with Yanmars are just as happy. All of the engines mentioned have been around a long time and are very reliable. Your choice.
Yanmar RPM
The actual cruising RPM of the Yanmar is about 2800. The maximum RPM is 3500 and they are designed to run continuously at 80% which is 2800. They are built VERY well and with proper care, it is my understanding that you can expect 10,000 hours before a major overhaul. I have a 3GM30 which is a 30 HP 3 cylindar. At 2650 RPM it pushes a 12,000lb boat at 6 knots and burns about 1/2 gal per hour. The longest that I have run it at 2650 rpm non-stop is 24 hours. It didn't seem to mind at all. Good Motor!
The actual cruising RPM of the Yanmar is about 2800. The maximum RPM is 3500 and they are designed to run continuously at 80% which is 2800. They are built VERY well and with proper care, it is my understanding that you can expect 10,000 hours before a major overhaul. I have a 3GM30 which is a 30 HP 3 cylindar. At 2650 RPM it pushes a 12,000lb boat at 6 knots and burns about 1/2 gal per hour. The longest that I have run it at 2650 rpm non-stop is 24 hours. It didn't seem to mind at all. Good Motor!
Yanmar very quiet too.
my neighbour has a westerbeke on his Catalina.... very noisy. Maybe it is the insulation, but I found my Yanmar 3gm relatively quiet.
my neighbour has a westerbeke on his Catalina.... very noisy. Maybe it is the insulation, but I found my Yanmar 3gm relatively quiet.
Weaterbeke
Westerbeke didn't make their own motors but thay did a great job at converting others for marine use. Their Perkins 4-108 conversion is superior to Perkins. I had a w-21 which was a Mitsibushi block and found it very reliable but a bit heavier and larger that the Yanmar. Parts are readily available, expensive but not as bad as Volvo. Westerbeke purchase Universal several years ago which made a big increase in their market share. Their self bleading fuel system is wonderful. I wouldn't hesitate buying another vessel with a Westerbeke
Westerbeke didn't make their own motors but thay did a great job at converting others for marine use. Their Perkins 4-108 conversion is superior to Perkins. I had a w-21 which was a Mitsibushi block and found it very reliable but a bit heavier and larger that the Yanmar. Parts are readily available, expensive but not as bad as Volvo. Westerbeke purchase Universal several years ago which made a big increase in their market share. Their self bleading fuel system is wonderful. I wouldn't hesitate buying another vessel with a Westerbeke
Westerbeke, Universal Yanmar, etc
All good diesels. All things being equal, you won't go wrong if it was decently taken care of and maintenance by PO (previous owner) done. I know many 20 year old Yanmars and 20 year old Universals. Good oil, Clean fuel and good habits and they'll run as long as the boat A lot of good remarks from people here. Point of interest. Many of the marine engines (Universal, Beta marine etc) are based around the venerable "kubota" tractor diesel engine blocks. Famously tough and long lived. The difference is they way they are "marinized" and features......
All good diesels. All things being equal, you won't go wrong if it was decently taken care of and maintenance by PO (previous owner) done. I know many 20 year old Yanmars and 20 year old Universals. Good oil, Clean fuel and good habits and they'll run as long as the boat A lot of good remarks from people here. Point of interest. Many of the marine engines (Universal, Beta marine etc) are based around the venerable "kubota" tractor diesel engine blocks. Famously tough and long lived. The difference is they way they are "marinized" and features......
Glow plugs
for cold starts are pretty much a necessity in some locales (like here in SF Bay). I'll bet there are a lot of Yanmars here, too, without that feature, that get their engines going, but I sure like it. We installed a solenoid for the glow plugs to make starts in 12 seconds. You shouldn't base your boat decision on an engine, but the whole package. Stu
for cold starts are pretty much a necessity in some locales (like here in SF Bay). I'll bet there are a lot of Yanmars here, too, without that feature, that get their engines going, but I sure like it. We installed a solenoid for the glow plugs to make starts in 12 seconds. You shouldn't base your boat decision on an engine, but the whole package. Stu
All these diesels...
... could be good -- or bad -- depending on the care and feeding they've had to date. I've had boats with a Universal and now have a H28.5 with a Yanmar. Both are very reliable, fuel efficient, and powerful. I think the Yanmar is much quieter (may be due to better insulation around the engine). As noted by Stu and others, the Universal uses glo-plugs and that really helps starting in cold weather. The Yanmar has higher compression and so they have no glo-plugs. Some Yanmars are notoriously hard to start in cold weather. At times, I plug in a hair dryer and aim it at the air intake and this serves the same purpose as glo-plugs: gets warm air into the cylinders and makes cold starting easy. Don't base your buying decision on engine type though. Find a "good" boat and most likely it will have a "good" engine in it.
... could be good -- or bad -- depending on the care and feeding they've had to date. I've had boats with a Universal and now have a H28.5 with a Yanmar. Both are very reliable, fuel efficient, and powerful. I think the Yanmar is much quieter (may be due to better insulation around the engine). As noted by Stu and others, the Universal uses glo-plugs and that really helps starting in cold weather. The Yanmar has higher compression and so they have no glo-plugs. Some Yanmars are notoriously hard to start in cold weather. At times, I plug in a hair dryer and aim it at the air intake and this serves the same purpose as glo-plugs: gets warm air into the cylinders and makes cold starting easy. Don't base your buying decision on engine type though. Find a "good" boat and most likely it will have a "good" engine in it.
gratitude
Thanks for the great responses, that makes me feel a lot better about the specific boats I'm looking at. Doug
Thanks for the great responses, that makes me feel a lot better about the specific boats I'm looking at. Doug
diesels
Part of the reason I asked this question is because I've been looking for my first boat, looked at a tartan 27 which had a westerbeke approx. 10 years old, engine wouldn't start again to get us back to port after sailing, next weekend looked at an ericson 25+ with a Yanmar 8 or 10HP and it was blowing black soot and lost RPM's as we were leaving the dock (I think that engine was 10 years old but current owner wasn't sure)so we turned around and didn't get a sail in. Last week went out sailing with owners of an ericson 29 which has a 3 year old universal and it ran great, looks like a brand new engine. I'm thinking the westerbeke probably had crud in the tank which plugged the fuel filters when we were sailing,,,was told the yanmar blowing black soot probably had an elbow exhause problem...and I know maintenance is most impo. with any diesel....but it sounds like there's no major difference/drawbacks to the different "makes". That was my experience with 3 different diesels on 3 different boats.
Part of the reason I asked this question is because I've been looking for my first boat, looked at a tartan 27 which had a westerbeke approx. 10 years old, engine wouldn't start again to get us back to port after sailing, next weekend looked at an ericson 25+ with a Yanmar 8 or 10HP and it was blowing black soot and lost RPM's as we were leaving the dock (I think that engine was 10 years old but current owner wasn't sure)so we turned around and didn't get a sail in. Last week went out sailing with owners of an ericson 29 which has a 3 year old universal and it ran great, looks like a brand new engine. I'm thinking the westerbeke probably had crud in the tank which plugged the fuel filters when we were sailing,,,was told the yanmar blowing black soot probably had an elbow exhause problem...and I know maintenance is most impo. with any diesel....but it sounds like there's no major difference/drawbacks to the different "makes". That was my experience with 3 different diesels on 3 different boats.
good maintenance=good engine, I like universal
Some additional thoughts to consider, especially since replacing an engine can run $5-10k. While shopping for a boat, ask to see the records of maintenance on the engine and how often and by whom it was maintained. There are lots of little things that make a difference on IF it will start when you need it beyond just routine maintenance. For example, using synthetic oil or at least the proper rated oil (many ARE NOT rated for Diesel engines), changing annually and using manufacture's oil & fuel & AIR filters instead of cheaper after-markets, valve adjustments at recommended intervals, adding appropriate additives whenever fueling-up (e.g. Biobor), changing the raw-water impellor at least ever other year, replacing the pencil zinc's in the engine/heat exchanger every year, etc. Also, ask when the anti-freeze was last changed. Diesel's run hotter, and old anti-freeze can spot-boil, causing cavitation and block problems. It should be done about every 2 years. Don't forget to ask about the tranmission. What direction do they leave it in during sailing (should almost never be in forward, reverse can be best on trannies), and how often has the fluid been changed. Also, pay attention to the engine temperature after it has been running for a bit (should be typically under 180 and if the engine doesn't have a heat exchanger, then under 160 -- the temp at which salt falls out of solution and clogs the engine). Also, if boats are winterized where you live, proper winterization procedures can make a huge difference, so if applicable, familiarize yourself with the proper approach and then ask the questions of how it was done. Also there are a few non-engine things that can adversely effect the reliablity of an engine. Examples are the condition & frequency of cleaning the raw-water strainer, checking the engine oil level at every start, replacing the starter (& glow plug) switches at 5-7 years, checking engine panel electrical connections, verifying proper water out of the exhaust at every start, checking/replacing the belt, adjusting the engine alignment (to prop), etc. BTW, my $.02 worth on which engine, I have a Universal M25XP in my 88 Catalina and absoutely love it. It might be slightly noiser than some, but has never failed to start (and it's 17 years old with about 500 hours). As mentioned it has an electric fuel pump which makes fuel filter changes very easy as it has a bypass for self-bleeding of the fuel lines. It does have a 'zinc' in the heat exchanger which should be changed at least once per year perhaps due to it being a marinized kubuto block, but well worth the reliabilty of the block (think about how many of their tractors you've seen). As it does have glow-plugs, a good battery does make a difference, but it ALSO has a decompression lever, just in case... By contrast, I have heard of lots of problems with Yanmar's, especially related to fuel issues, perhaps because of the lack of an electric fuel pump (as mentioned) or that they typically use larger micron filtering material in their fuel filters, allowing more junk to get to the engine. However, to their credit, they are often quieter, sometimes with less vibration, sometimes more fuel efficient, and may have fewer dis-similiar metals, sometimes eliminating the need for engine/exchanger zincs. Lastly, consider reviewing owners manuals of some of the typical engines you have encountered (most should be on the WWW), so you are familiar with what is suggested and can ask to see if it has been done. Below is a link to a diesel engine forum which might also help. Hope this helps...
Some additional thoughts to consider, especially since replacing an engine can run $5-10k. While shopping for a boat, ask to see the records of maintenance on the engine and how often and by whom it was maintained. There are lots of little things that make a difference on IF it will start when you need it beyond just routine maintenance. For example, using synthetic oil or at least the proper rated oil (many ARE NOT rated for Diesel engines), changing annually and using manufacture's oil & fuel & AIR filters instead of cheaper after-markets, valve adjustments at recommended intervals, adding appropriate additives whenever fueling-up (e.g. Biobor), changing the raw-water impellor at least ever other year, replacing the pencil zinc's in the engine/heat exchanger every year, etc. Also, ask when the anti-freeze was last changed. Diesel's run hotter, and old anti-freeze can spot-boil, causing cavitation and block problems. It should be done about every 2 years. Don't forget to ask about the tranmission. What direction do they leave it in during sailing (should almost never be in forward, reverse can be best on trannies), and how often has the fluid been changed. Also, pay attention to the engine temperature after it has been running for a bit (should be typically under 180 and if the engine doesn't have a heat exchanger, then under 160 -- the temp at which salt falls out of solution and clogs the engine). Also, if boats are winterized where you live, proper winterization procedures can make a huge difference, so if applicable, familiarize yourself with the proper approach and then ask the questions of how it was done. Also there are a few non-engine things that can adversely effect the reliablity of an engine. Examples are the condition & frequency of cleaning the raw-water strainer, checking the engine oil level at every start, replacing the starter (& glow plug) switches at 5-7 years, checking engine panel electrical connections, verifying proper water out of the exhaust at every start, checking/replacing the belt, adjusting the engine alignment (to prop), etc. BTW, my $.02 worth on which engine, I have a Universal M25XP in my 88 Catalina and absoutely love it. It might be slightly noiser than some, but has never failed to start (and it's 17 years old with about 500 hours). As mentioned it has an electric fuel pump which makes fuel filter changes very easy as it has a bypass for self-bleeding of the fuel lines. It does have a 'zinc' in the heat exchanger which should be changed at least once per year perhaps due to it being a marinized kubuto block, but well worth the reliabilty of the block (think about how many of their tractors you've seen). As it does have glow-plugs, a good battery does make a difference, but it ALSO has a decompression lever, just in case... By contrast, I have heard of lots of problems with Yanmar's, especially related to fuel issues, perhaps because of the lack of an electric fuel pump (as mentioned) or that they typically use larger micron filtering material in their fuel filters, allowing more junk to get to the engine. However, to their credit, they are often quieter, sometimes with less vibration, sometimes more fuel efficient, and may have fewer dis-similiar metals, sometimes eliminating the need for engine/exchanger zincs. Lastly, consider reviewing owners manuals of some of the typical engines you have encountered (most should be on the WWW), so you are familiar with what is suggested and can ask to see if it has been done. Below is a link to a diesel engine forum which might also help. Hope this helps...
17 years old with about 500 hours ?
Bill was that a typo? Thats not even 30 hours a year. I have a 6 year old boat and I have 600 hours and I know many people with much more. BTW I have a Universal M35B and it starts great and never really use or need the glow plugs, but its nice to know I have them. The universal runs great and seems very smooth, but maybe because it a 4 cylinder model. I had an old 2 cylinder yanmar 2QM15 in my old boat and it was over 20 years old when I sold it. It had no hour meter so I don't know exactly how many hours, but I bet it was easily 1200-1500 hours on her. Once she got started she was a work horse and never failed me and that "thuk-thuk-thuk" sound she made was not quiet but it was very comforting and soothing. The problem was she was a bitch to get started when the engine was cold and not used for over a day or so. Not sure if it was the fuel system or small air leaks or what (the compression measured looked ok and I had the injectors rebuilt with no difference). I would have loved to have had glow plugs on that engine. But like I said, once she was started she was great and could go all day and night.
Bill was that a typo? Thats not even 30 hours a year. I have a 6 year old boat and I have 600 hours and I know many people with much more. BTW I have a Universal M35B and it starts great and never really use or need the glow plugs, but its nice to know I have them. The universal runs great and seems very smooth, but maybe because it a 4 cylinder model. I had an old 2 cylinder yanmar 2QM15 in my old boat and it was over 20 years old when I sold it. It had no hour meter so I don't know exactly how many hours, but I bet it was easily 1200-1500 hours on her. Once she got started she was a work horse and never failed me and that "thuk-thuk-thuk" sound she made was not quiet but it was very comforting and soothing. The problem was she was a bitch to get started when the engine was cold and not used for over a day or so. Not sure if it was the fuel system or small air leaks or what (the compression measured looked ok and I had the injectors rebuilt with no difference). I would have loved to have had glow plugs on that engine. But like I said, once she was started she was great and could go all day and night.
600 hours in 6 yrs on a sailboat engine???
Methinks you're spending waaaay too much time motoring and not nearly enough under sail...'cuz 100 hrs/yr is about average for most powerboats!
Methinks you're spending waaaay too much time motoring and not nearly enough under sail...'cuz 100 hrs/yr is about average for most powerboats!
Hi Peggie, it all depends on how much...
use the boat gets whether 100 hours/year is normal or not. We went through 100 engine hours this past season during our seven week cruise to the Discovery Island Group and we were maybe 70 percent of the time under sail between anchorages. All things considered we usually go through 100 engine hours per year. The engine meter just rolled over 1,000 hours on our 1991 P42. Some consider that pretty light use, and others... Terry
use the boat gets whether 100 hours/year is normal or not. We went through 100 engine hours this past season during our seven week cruise to the Discovery Island Group and we were maybe 70 percent of the time under sail between anchorages. All things considered we usually go through 100 engine hours per year. The engine meter just rolled over 1,000 hours on our 1991 P42. Some consider that pretty light use, and others... Terry
I'm going to weigh in with a biased oppinion....
Everyone knows what I do. I'm in the diesel business. I am a dealer for all of the brands you know and some you don't. What I'll say here is...in the Sub-50hp market there is no diference in quality. All of these will last 20 years IF taken care of. Each has it's little quirks. Yanmar doesn't use zinc's and the 2 cylinders vibrate more than the three. Universal and Westerbeke use external heat exchangers with a zinc. Universals are all Kubota engines marinized in Mass. by Westerbeke. Westerbekes are usualy Mitsubishi and a few others. Yanmar GM series were purpose built while the new YM series is an adapted industrial engine. Yanmar is the only company of the three that produces it's own engines. Some mention was made of operating temperatures. All fresh water(closed) cooled engines are thermostated at 180 deg F and Raw water cooled are at 140 deg F. The above mentioned engine all have a 10mcn final fuel filter from the builder. Most of the time your stuck with what the boat builder instaled new or someone else repowered. THis isn't always a bad thing. Get a good mechanic to look it over on a prepurchase. Pat McCartin Inland Marine Diesel Buford, Ga imd_ga@hotmail.com
Everyone knows what I do. I'm in the diesel business. I am a dealer for all of the brands you know and some you don't. What I'll say here is...in the Sub-50hp market there is no diference in quality. All of these will last 20 years IF taken care of. Each has it's little quirks. Yanmar doesn't use zinc's and the 2 cylinders vibrate more than the three. Universal and Westerbeke use external heat exchangers with a zinc. Universals are all Kubota engines marinized in Mass. by Westerbeke. Westerbekes are usualy Mitsubishi and a few others. Yanmar GM series were purpose built while the new YM series is an adapted industrial engine. Yanmar is the only company of the three that produces it's own engines. Some mention was made of operating temperatures. All fresh water(closed) cooled engines are thermostated at 180 deg F and Raw water cooled are at 140 deg F. The above mentioned engine all have a 10mcn final fuel filter from the builder. Most of the time your stuck with what the boat builder instaled new or someone else repowered. THis isn't always a bad thing. Get a good mechanic to look it over on a prepurchase. Pat McCartin Inland Marine Diesel Buford, Ga imd_ga@hotmail.com
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