"take you to breakfast"??? also you should post his companys name so other board members dont use him!!!
Did I get ripped off??
- Thread starter ChangsinLattitudes
- Start date
i would like to know what the mechanic has to say about the bill ....this is a simple project but we really don't know what all took place on his boat...i am not saying that he is lying ...but if he didn't know how to do it.... there may be more involved here than he could even describe to us ...but if what he has said is all that there is to it ....YES he got took big time......
It's real easy to sit back and make a judgement on a service provided to a customer and the resulting charges. We base these comments on our own abilities, comments made by others and by how the aggrieved party presented the problem. A better understanding would include the side of the story the professional serviceman ran into.
Maine Sail would be the best qualified to make any real judgement. There is one hell of a number of boats that have sunk by less than professional repair jobs.
Finally, what do you charge for your work time? How about travel time? If you are a professional type what does your degree add to the bill, please include office expenses?
And finally, did the Doctor refund any of your money for a blown opinion? Only answer if you lived.
Ray
Maine Sail would be the best qualified to make any real judgement. There is one hell of a number of boats that have sunk by less than professional repair jobs.
Finally, what do you charge for your work time? How about travel time? If you are a professional type what does your degree add to the bill, please include office expenses?
And finally, did the Doctor refund any of your money for a blown opinion? Only answer if you lived.
Ray
I don't know how that installer bills?
*Does he charge for travel time?
*Does he bill it by partial days? (some guys do)
*Does he charge for the time he takes to get the parts needed?
*Does he bill by the "total hours" it took to do the job including travel, chandlery etc.?
I can't imagine it took 7 hours to install a new bilge switch and float and run the wires on a C-30 but depending upon wire chases, how and where he cut in the new switch, travel time, a trip to the chandlery etc. the bill may or may not be out of line? If the guy is independent and travels the time for a guy to come out to the boat and fix it does not start when he actually starts working on the boat itself.
I had 2.5 hours on Monday alone running around for hard to find parts that no one would normally stock. Calls on Saturday confirmed that two local suppliers had what I needed. Turns out they did not. This entailed a 45 minute drive each way to another supplier who actually did have what I needed. Who pays for that? Am I supposed to eat that time? Donate it for free? I did my best to "confirm stock" at two local sources who were both wrong about their inventory.
At least when I send a customer a bill he got 5 hours out of me, for a 5 hour bill, and I charge a LOT less than the local car dealer. When you go to the car dealer they charge you "flat rate".. Last time I had my car into the dealer I paid for 6.5 hours of labor while I "waited" for the car. It was done in 1:45........
Here is how last Monday went:
*Leave shop at 7:00 am and spend 2.5 hours finding parts for the job. (two suppliers had said *parts were in stock, and they were NOT $hit happens)
*Drive to club, load tools from car to dock cart walk down to dock to wait for the launch, launch to boat & unload tools 45 minutes
*Dig into job and do physical work on the boat 5 hours
*Call launch, wait, load tools and get back to shop .75 hours
Total 9 hours
How much is fair to charge this customer in terms of hours??? The entire "job" from the time I left my shop to the time I got back to the shop took 9 hours...? I did nothing else that day but his boat.. Is 9 hours fair? The physical time working on the boat was 5 hours but the ancillary realities of the job ate another 4.
I had a Hunter that it took me 6 hours just to run the flux gate wires. Damn pan built boats..
Owner was on-board the entire time. I was glad he was and saw what the job really entailed........
the guidelines are portal to portal in most jobs that entail travel time.......as they say its hard but its fairI don't know how that installer bills?
*Does he charge for travel time?
*Does he bill it by partial days? (some guys do)
*Does he charge for the time he takes to get the parts needed?
*Does he bill by the "total hours" it took to do the job including travel, chandlery etc.?
I can't imagine it took 7 hours to install a new bilge switch and float and run the wires on a C-30 but depending upon wire chases, how and where he cut in the new switch, travel time, a trip to the chandlery etc. the bill may or may not be out of line? If the guy is independent and travels the time for a guy to come out to the boat and fix it does not start when he actually starts working on the boat itself.
I had 2.5 hours on Monday alone running around for hard to find parts that no one would normally stock. Calls on Saturday confirmed that two local suppliers had what I needed. Turns out they did not. This entailed a 45 minute drive each way to another supplier who actually did have what I needed. Who pays for that? Am I supposed to eat that time? Donate it for free? I did my best to "confirm stock" at two local sources who were both wrong about their inventory.
At least when I send a customer a bill he got 5 hours out of me, for a 5 hour bill, and I charge a LOT less than the local car dealer. When you go to the car dealer they charge you "flat rate".. Last time I had my car into the dealer I paid for 6.5 hours of labor while I "waited" for the car. It was done in 1:45........
Here is how last Monday went:
*Leave shop at 7:00 am and spend 2.5 hours finding parts for the job. (two suppliers had said *parts were in stock, and they were NOT $hit happens)
*Drive to club, load tools from car to dock cart walk down to dock to wait for the launch, launch to boat & unload tools 45 minutes
*Dig into job and do physical work on the boat 5 hours
*Call launch, wait, load tools and get back to shop .75 hours
Total 9 hours
How much is fair to charge this customer in terms of hours??? The entire "job" from the time I left my shop to the time I got back to the shop took 9 hours...? I did nothing else that day but his boat.. Is 9 hours fair? The physical time working on the boat was 5 hours but the ancillary realities of the job ate another 4.
I had a Hunter that it took me 6 hours just to run the flux gate wires. Damn pan built boats..
Folks,
Thanks a lot for your insight.
To be clear, the mechanic was local at the marina so his travel time was walking to the boat from the shop (2 minutes) plus there is a pretty well stocked marine store on site. So this 7 hours is 6:40 of work I'd imagine.
Additionally, there was some incorrect wiring between the switch, pump and panel/electrical buss. So while this wasn't, in any way, a 7 hour job, it wasn't a simple job either. I didn't want the worry of it shorting out coming back to see my carpet under 2 inches of water because I didn't do something right.
Like many of you have said, I have now learned my lesson. I will never give away my money like this again. I do enjoy learning anything related to boats. As intimidating as electrical work sounds, I suppose I'll take a stab at it next time.
I did call the service manager and gave him a piece of my mind. My main point was, you told me you'd call me if this was going to be a "big fix." $700 is a lot of money. This was a "big fix," and you didn't warn me. You need to keep your word and make this right. Currently it's pending as to what his resolution will be.
Thanks again for all your experiences and opinions. I'll be asking a hell of a lot more questions here next time so the only bill I get is from the shop buying supplies!
Have a good night,
-C&L
Thanks a lot for your insight.
To be clear, the mechanic was local at the marina so his travel time was walking to the boat from the shop (2 minutes) plus there is a pretty well stocked marine store on site. So this 7 hours is 6:40 of work I'd imagine.
Additionally, there was some incorrect wiring between the switch, pump and panel/electrical buss. So while this wasn't, in any way, a 7 hour job, it wasn't a simple job either. I didn't want the worry of it shorting out coming back to see my carpet under 2 inches of water because I didn't do something right.
Like many of you have said, I have now learned my lesson. I will never give away my money like this again. I do enjoy learning anything related to boats. As intimidating as electrical work sounds, I suppose I'll take a stab at it next time.
I did call the service manager and gave him a piece of my mind. My main point was, you told me you'd call me if this was going to be a "big fix." $700 is a lot of money. This was a "big fix," and you didn't warn me. You need to keep your word and make this right. Currently it's pending as to what his resolution will be.
Thanks again for all your experiences and opinions. I'll be asking a hell of a lot more questions here next time so the only bill I get is from the shop buying supplies!
Have a good night,
-C&L
If the original wiring has transmuted into a rat's nest over the years, the source of the problem may not have been so obvious. I have been repairing electrical/electronic systems since 1971 (initial training courtesy of the USCG, now biomedical systems).
A well organized and maintained wiring system makes for quick repairs. Many older boats I have seen have an unorganized jumble of wires — some don't go where one would expect.
If your boat has a well organized wiring system, then the repair should have taken a short time (perhaps an hour if access was easy). If the wiring was unorganized, it can take a very long time to sort out what wire is what. It may not have been possible to simply "run a new wire" since there may not have been space to add it.
Were you ripped off? Can't tell from the information provided. Provide some photos for a more definitive set of answers. (I suspect that the wiring and locations were not as well laid out as one might like to think.)
Should the service manager have contacted you first? Probably, but you gave no precise limits. "Boat Dollars" have mean different things to different people.
Since you were not able to make the repair yourself at the time, the cost is less expensive than having to refloat the boat if it submerged.
A well organized and maintained wiring system makes for quick repairs. Many older boats I have seen have an unorganized jumble of wires — some don't go where one would expect.
If your boat has a well organized wiring system, then the repair should have taken a short time (perhaps an hour if access was easy). If the wiring was unorganized, it can take a very long time to sort out what wire is what. It may not have been possible to simply "run a new wire" since there may not have been space to add it.
Were you ripped off? Can't tell from the information provided. Provide some photos for a more definitive set of answers. (I suspect that the wiring and locations were not as well laid out as one might like to think.)
Should the service manager have contacted you first? Probably, but you gave no precise limits. "Boat Dollars" have mean different things to different people.
Since you were not able to make the repair yourself at the time, the cost is less expensive than having to refloat the boat if it submerged.
Welcome to the DIY club.
Pressed for time after replacing a troublesome cutlass bearing, i paid a marina to change ghe oil and transmisdion fluid but also to diagnose a ringing sound when the transmission was in gear. I got MY $700 bill paid and asked about the most importsnt thing...the dound, as i was moving the boat from Milford CT to Boston starting that morning. I spoke to the mechanic and the twenty something year old "mechanic" i paid $85/hr for had no idea what the noise was. I then spent ten minutes removing extra fluid from the transmission he significantly overfilled.
Welcome to sailing!
Bob
Pressed for time after replacing a troublesome cutlass bearing, i paid a marina to change ghe oil and transmisdion fluid but also to diagnose a ringing sound when the transmission was in gear. I got MY $700 bill paid and asked about the most importsnt thing...the dound, as i was moving the boat from Milford CT to Boston starting that morning. I spoke to the mechanic and the twenty something year old "mechanic" i paid $85/hr for had no idea what the noise was. I then spent ten minutes removing extra fluid from the transmission he significantly overfilled.
Welcome to sailing!
Bob
What Main Sail Stated.
You did not provide a limit, you did not get a quote, you did not shop the job. With the shop so close it seems a quote would have been easy to obtain. You left you self-wide open for a surprise bill.
I have written well over a thousand contracts over the years, they very in scope and types. You have to define the work and know what is to be done to get a fair price. Estimating is an art and much more goes into the cost of a job than the price of the parts and labor, you have Insurance, Office overhead, training, travel, it is complicated.
Learn to do as much as you can yourself and learn to do it correctly. The most important reason to acquire the needed mechanical skills is when you are out on the water or a remote anchorage, or even at some small marina you may need them in a hurry.
Is the price fair, if I were quoted that price for the work you described I would have given google a good work out to learn the value of the work and how to do it myself. You may want to start reading what Main Sail posts his information is spot on and if you do you work to his standards you will have better quality than 80 percent of the work done by most boatyards.
Boating is a learning curve and we all have our stories of over paying for a service. Mine is about running aground and towing, it still hurts to think about it.
You did not provide a limit, you did not get a quote, you did not shop the job. With the shop so close it seems a quote would have been easy to obtain. You left you self-wide open for a surprise bill.
I have written well over a thousand contracts over the years, they very in scope and types. You have to define the work and know what is to be done to get a fair price. Estimating is an art and much more goes into the cost of a job than the price of the parts and labor, you have Insurance, Office overhead, training, travel, it is complicated.
Learn to do as much as you can yourself and learn to do it correctly. The most important reason to acquire the needed mechanical skills is when you are out on the water or a remote anchorage, or even at some small marina you may need them in a hurry.
Is the price fair, if I were quoted that price for the work you described I would have given google a good work out to learn the value of the work and how to do it myself. You may want to start reading what Main Sail posts his information is spot on and if you do you work to his standards you will have better quality than 80 percent of the work done by most boatyards.
Boating is a learning curve and we all have our stories of over paying for a service. Mine is about running aground and towing, it still hurts to think about it.
Yes, that is way too much, I would have had a heart attack if I got that bill. I installed my own switch and pump with all new wire in about an hour. The circuit is simple and there is usually a diagram included with the switch and or pump. Routing the wire usually takes the most of the time. There are a lot of good DIY marine electric books out there. Of course in the end it will depend on if you feel comfortable doing it yourself. Otherwise get several estimates before paying someone else and also ask around with other sailors for recommendations.
Sometimes other sailors will volunteer and do it for you, and teach you, right on the spot.
When I was getting started, I always was on the boat the few times I ever had anyone else doing work, so I could learn.
Yes, I believe you were taken advantage of. We are talking 12v here. Don't just say "I can't do it myself". Plenty of information here and online available to hook up a wire and/or run a new wire. At least do a little homework when you get estimates so they know they are not dealing with someone totally clueless. They probably worked 1 hour and partied for 6 hours on your boat......any beer missing in the frig?
ripped off !
Lets not forget in most of the country boating is a seasonal business They have to make it while they can. some people have a knack for electrical work or engine work others do not
boat yards work by the hour The longer it takes the more they can charge. I have a different system that works for me. I can repair sales tune rigging splice rope do fiberglass work, navigate the old fashion way and do many jobs associated with sailing I cannot do electrical or engine work Years ago I became familiar with boat yards and how they operate, and developed a system that works for me. first I stay away from gadgets Ive found them to be unreliable in a marine environment, I cant do electrial work so I have no electrical system aboard my boat. I use gas lamps I have no head. I do have an outboard motor but I dont use it much If it needs repairs I bring it to an outboard shop inland I sail on and off my mooring. I have a trailer to take my boat from my yard to be launched to avoid a huge fee. I try to avoid anything associated with boat yards MY system is not for everyone but It works for me
some of
Lets not forget in most of the country boating is a seasonal business They have to make it while they can. some people have a knack for electrical work or engine work others do not
boat yards work by the hour The longer it takes the more they can charge. I have a different system that works for me. I can repair sales tune rigging splice rope do fiberglass work, navigate the old fashion way and do many jobs associated with sailing I cannot do electrical or engine work Years ago I became familiar with boat yards and how they operate, and developed a system that works for me. first I stay away from gadgets Ive found them to be unreliable in a marine environment, I cant do electrial work so I have no electrical system aboard my boat. I use gas lamps I have no head. I do have an outboard motor but I dont use it much If it needs repairs I bring it to an outboard shop inland I sail on and off my mooring. I have a trailer to take my boat from my yard to be launched to avoid a huge fee. I try to avoid anything associated with boat yards MY system is not for everyone but It works for me
some of
I know this is locking the barn door after the horse was stolen but the folks on this forum have conservatively saved me over a thousand dollars in superfluous mechanics costs. My gut feeling says you were ripped off. Please tell us the name of this mechanic/boatyard so the rest of us Maryland boaters can avoid him.
Another consideration is "taking your Chevy to the Maserati dealer for a simple repair". You had the boat fixed in a big boats/big bucks neighborhood - if not on your Catalina 30 at $100 an hour the tech would have been on one of the many really expensive boats where a $700 bill gets lost under "misc".
Don't let the wires ( or diesel, fiberglass, rigging etc) intimidate you, lots of information and great advice is available to make you comfortable with DIY or at least be an educated consumer with an idea of fair pricing and when you need to call on the pro.
Besides, it was less than a "boat buck", chalk it up to your continuing education.....
Exactly ...
Besides that, you did a good deed. Money doesn't serve any purpose until it's in circulation. Somebody was probably buying drinks all around based on their profitable day. Your money could be helping a local establishment stay in business and providing tip earnings for somebody who really needs it. Cheer up!
Scott,
If you'd like to send me any amount of uncirculating cash you have lying around I promise to get it moving for you and stimulate the economy a bit. :dance:
Think how happy everyone would be!