death rolls are different....

[centerline]

a few weeks ago I took my boat out and was playing in 12-16 kt wind with full main and genoa and was trying to see if i could find out where the knockdown point was... trying to learn the limits of the boat. I couldnt make it knock down on a beam reach or tighter to the wind....... it wont happen. BUT.... yesterday afternoon i took the boat to detroit lake, and was sailing along in light air with sunbreaks and some drizzle at times..... the wind would pick up a bit from time to time but nothing to get excited about... so I removed the main jib and hanked on the genoa..... that helped alot and made it go better. we sailed on a close reach for about 2 miles and then decided to return back towards the marina... and it was uneventful running down wind.... until the wind changed. and it all happend so fast I still dont know what saved my a*s from going swimming...
the wind was coming from the port quarter and i had the sails trimmed open to catch as much as i could, when all of a sudden a severe wind came along and, well... first we started to heel, then the heel got out of control, then the water was over the rail.... I pushed the tiller hard over and i knew we were in trouble cuz now we were taking on water over the combing and filling the cockpit. the the wind was still blowing and the boat was sluggishly coming around thru a broad reach.... but the boom tip was in the water and i just new the boat combing was acting like a sea anchor and keeping the stern from swinging around, and with the wind holding us down, if i couldnt get the boat to round up, this is how it was going to be until the blow is over.....
and then it finally came around and popped back up..... but I was so relieved that I wasnt paying attention and the wind got a grip on us again... it was still blowing hard and I went too far thru the point of wind and it layed us over the other way.... but this time I could get it rounded up and luffing.... we had water in the cockpit almost up to seat level. with the sails beating themselves to death Im surprised the wind didnt tear them out before i could get them down.... I then had time to start the motor and I told my friend (who has never sailed before) to keep it pointed to where the sails are luffing until I get them all the way down and tied off..... and by the time I had the genoa sheet pulled tight and all the way down, and had it wrapped with gaskets to keep it bunched together and stowed along the rail, another stronger wind came up.... and we had water splashing over the bow. i got back and gasketed the main to the boom and we made a run for the marina..... we had spray off the whitecaps and swells by the time we got in... just in time.

there was no time to be scared... but I found out that even though a typical knock down is not likey on my boat, a death roll is a highly probable occurrence.. and once its recognized as happening, its almost too late to do anything about..... if I would have been watching the water surface behind me where the wind was coming from I could have turned up in time to keep the excitement level down.... but still, it was an experience that I have learned from, and no damage done, so it was all good....

 

[Nom De Guerre]

Sounds exciting and a great experience!

From your description it sounds as if you experienced two knock-downs in succession (knock-down, tack, knock-down), as opposed to a true 'death roll'.

 

[sailaway78]

I am always amazed

I am always amazed at how much of the nasties a boat will take, and keep on going, no matter the size or the make. Many, many years ago, I had a Chrysler 22. Little swing keel boat. That thing just loved to be sailed with the rail in the water. Of the boats I have owned, every one of them could take much more of a beating than I could.

 

[kpgraci]

I don't really know but isn't a death roll when the spinnaker pole digs in due to being overpowered causing all heck to break loose?

 

[centerline]

Sounds exciting and a great experience!

From your description it sounds as if you experienced two knock-downs in succession (knock-down, tack, knock-down), as opposed to a true 'death roll'.

you may be right.... i was to understand a death roll is being pushed forward and over.... because it is incapable of rounding up in that situation. the boat has to come all the way around to round up. but im no expert either way... but i knew that when it was happening, the last thing i wanted was to pull the tiller the other way.... I can only imagine the doom and gloom that a jibe would have caused....

 

[Ross]

You can be "pitch poled" or " capsized" To be capsized and rolled requires both wind and wave action. Wind alone will knock the boat onto her beam ends in a capsize but will not roll her. To be pitch poled requies that you bury the bow in a trough while a following wave lifts the stern.

 

[centerline]

You can be "pitch poled" or " capsized" To be capsized and rolled requires both wind and wave action. Wind alone will knock the boat onto her beam ends in a capsize but will not roll her. To be pitch poled requies that you bury the bow in a trough while a following wave lifts the stern.

it was an abnormally strong wind and squall that overtook us....
pitch poled seemed to be where it was going... i had water up over the rail to the cabin top until i got it turned, and then it was filling the cockpit.
but the bow itself was not underwater, she was just layed forward with the starboard bow rail plowing water..... the sail was out and hard against the shrouds.... there was nothing i could do to save her, but as i've always said, I would rather be lucky, than good.... and i was lucky there.

 

[kpgraci]

it was an abnormally strong wind and squall that overtook us....
pitch poled seemed to be where it was going... i had water up over the rail to the cabin top until i got it turned, and then it was filling the cockpit.
but the bow itself was not underwater, she was just layed forward with the starboard bow rail plowing water..... the sail was out and hard against the shrouds.... there was nothing i could do to save her, but as i've always said, I would rather be lucky, than good.... and i was lucky there.

Sounds like one of those experiences you are glad to have don't want to repeat anytime soon.

I recently got enamored with downwind sailing, I bought a whisker pole and rigged up a preventer. Although I had not considered your scenario before now, it did occur to me that in a wing-on-wing configuration it would not be very easy to change either sails angle of attack in a hurry. I'm going to replace the preventer line with a boom brake, which will help.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

How is it that you didn't recognize that a squall was following you? Was it a clear air squall, or was the weather darkening? I've heard that clear air squalls are frequent in some of the mountainous areas, but I've never experienced a squall (on a boat) that I couldn't see well before it was on us.

 

[robertsapp]

Everyone was wearing a life jacket, yes?

 

[Joe]

RELEASE the VANG! to keep the boom out of the water. Center the rudder.... it's useless when you broach, so if you have it on center the boat won't jibe over when it comes back up.

 

[Gunni]

Many a sailor has learned the hard way the meaning and importance of "apparent wind speed" when running before the wind.

Once you stood it back up stalled into the wind the second knockdown was inevitable. You need to stay in motion, keep those foils working, get to a reach and start loosing sheets.

Now try it again with properly reefed sails

 

[centerline]

How is it that you didn't recognize that a squall was following you? Was it a clear air squall, or was the weather darkening? I've heard that clear air squalls are frequent in some of the mountainous areas, but I've never experienced a squall (on a boat) that I couldn't see well before it was on us.

yep, both of us were wearing life jackets.....

detroit lake is a mountain lake in a canyon.... you dont see anything coming until it has came around the bend.... then its upon you. the dark weather had past us with hard rain 30 minutes before. it was actually nice out at the time it hit. I wasnt watching rearward.... from the direction the wind was coming from. I would have seen it water change if i would have been watching.... for the last two hours i didnt have enough wind and I wasnt expecting it to change in a hurry anytime soon. the wind came before the rain and i just wasnt paying attention to the signs of any change.

releasing the vang would of helped me.... but I didnt know any better and if I would have i may not have had the time..... my vang release is at the boom..... it would make it nice if i had that control line run to the cockpit near the tiller....

 

[centerline]

Many a sailor has learned the hard way the meaning and importance of "apparent wind speed" when running before the wind.

Once you stood it back up stalled into the wind the second knockdown was inevitable. You need to stay in motion, keep those foils working, get to a reach and start loosing sheets.

Now try it again with properly reefed sails

im gonna have to try that reefing thing.... ive heard about it but i always thought it was for sissies

 

[njsail]

Glad to hear nobody was hurt and you still have a boat...not a submarine. Usually during a situation like you experienced people finally realize why washboards have pins to lock them in place and why cabin top slides lock in place.

This weekend we had some pretty Good wind In the morning blowing 20+ and I decided to teach my daughter how to sail in those conditions. Every action is magnified. When the boat started to heel too much I showed her how to steer slightly into the wind to reduce heel. Once it gusted while we were sheeted tight and she turned the wrong way and put us over more than she was comfortable with. Of course I left a little too much sail up intentionally to make it a little more interesting. She learned a lot from the experience and i had a blast too.

 

[Ross]

About reefing: If your boat sails well in ten to twelve with full sails understand that at fiftenn to eighteen the wind is blowning at least twice as hard.

 

[Stu Jackson]

.... my vang release is at the boom..... it would make it nice if i had that control line run to the cockpit near the tiller....

Either run it back or flip it over so the cam cleat block is on the boom, may be easier to reach.

 

[Joe]

the signs of any change.

releasing the vang would of helped me.... but I didnt know any better and if I would have i may not have had the time..... my vang release is at the boom..... it would make it nice if i had that control line run to the cockpit near the tiller....

Easy fix....... flip it over so the control line exits at the mast, remove the cam cleat and run the control line to a vee or cam cleat on the cabin near your other halyards. All you need to do is grab the end of the line and snap upwards to pop the vang. Now that you are aware.. it will be the first thing you think of when you start to broach.

 

[centerline]

Easy fix....... flip it over so the control line exits at the mast, remove the cam cleat and run the control line to a vee or cam cleat on the cabin near your other halyards. All you need to do is grab the end of the line and snap upwards to pop the vang. Now that you are aware.. it will be the first thing you think of when you start to broach.

it will be done.... ive not thought of that before, but I have had trouble getting it released because of the current angle of it.... it will soon be a past problem.

thanks everyone for all the helpful suggestions and comments.....

 

[tommays]

death gibe