Yup, I had a 14 (no jib) before the 16 and I almost always had to jibe, the 16 with a jib would tack most of the time and the 18 tacks great (sailing knowledge and experience may have something to do with this) but they do go into irons pretty easy.
Dealing With an Overpowered Situation
- Thread starter Don Guillette
- Start date
Jackdaw wrote:
Not sure what the question is. An increase in pressure always pushes the apparent wind aft. Easing sails matches the change in wind angle to the new breeze. Turning slightly up into the ‘velocity lift’ and trimming in until the boat regains it’s prior angle of heel is SOP, no matter if a puff or sustained pressure.
When you use the word 'pressure', you mean an increase in 'true wind speed' with no directional change or?
When the wind is ahead of the beam (e.g., beating on on a close reach), a "simple" gust will move the apparent wind direction more FORWARD, in addition to increasing the apparent wind speed. A "simple gust", for this purpose is no change in true wind direction, only true wind speed.
'Pressure' in a sense is a different concept that is harder to explain because it's multi-faceted (or somewhat ethereal to describe objectively).
Not sure what the question is. An increase in pressure always pushes the apparent wind aft. Easing sails matches the change in wind angle to the new breeze. Turning slightly up into the ‘velocity lift’ and trimming in until the boat regains it’s prior angle of heel is SOP, no matter if a puff or sustained pressure.
When you use the word 'pressure', you mean an increase in 'true wind speed' with no directional change or?
When the wind is ahead of the beam (e.g., beating on on a close reach), a "simple" gust will move the apparent wind direction more FORWARD, in addition to increasing the apparent wind speed. A "simple gust", for this purpose is no change in true wind direction, only true wind speed.
'Pressure' in a sense is a different concept that is harder to explain because it's multi-faceted (or somewhat ethereal to describe objectively).
- If you're describing the cumulative load on the sails, as resisted by the hull and control surfaces in terms of "heeling angle" (for example), that might be a different description.
- In that case, were you saying: Head off to maintain about the same angle of heel. If you can't do that, then you'll have to i) reduce sail, ii) ease the sails, in some combination, or iii) yield to greater angle of heel.
- Is that what you meant, Jackdaw?
No it won't. The wind speed and direction is represented by a vector at a given angle to the boat. The boat's heading and speed is represented by another vector at a given angle. The resultant vector from adding those vectors is representative of the apparent wind. The angle of apparent wind will always be ahead of the true wind. Increasing the vector force of true wind will change the apparent wind angle to come closer to the true wind angle always.
The only other factor will be the speed and direction of the boat. If that hasn't changed, apparent wind shifts aft.
-Will (Dragonfly)
Yes, if you try to tack. My point was to steer only as much as needed to keep the boat up on one pontoon. I found I had more control with steering than with the main sheet. You are also reducing lift off the bottom of the trampoline.
Hmmm... You said 'Letting trim out improves drive force by increasing efficiency of sail angle under those conditions. Heading up will do the same only quicker. '
You are probably right about that.
Please understand, however, I wasn't trying to outline the steps to take, only explain the options. In the second post, I did say coming up to avoid a knockdown was faster than easing the sheets. If you disagree with my saying so, I will seriously reconsider my approach.
When I (and most racers I suppose) say 'pressure', it means general airflow against the sail. The MANNER in which this can increase can vary:
It can be freshening breeze, a general increase in overall pressure
It can be a wind line, a localized increased pressure due to a topographic feature or a squall
It can be a puff, which along with added pressure might be a lift or knock, depending on what side of it you're on
Calling the type of pressure change can help the crew deal with what is about to happen.
'sustained wind-line in 3...2...1'
'big puff, looks like a knock (left side while on port tack) in 3.. 2... 1... building...'
At some point for all boats, an increased level of general pressure will call for reduced sail area.
Here's a short vid that shows wind calling, and the sailplan being eased to keep the boat on its feet. Very puffy conditions, but notice that the heel angle does not change much at all for most of the puffs. In (maybe one) that it does, it was because the main trimmer 'missed' it. After the ease, I turn up slightly as the main trims back on, maintains the same angle of heel.
-Will (Dragonfly)[/QUOTE]
You, and Jackdaw were right and What I wrote was incorrect.
So last night the wind piped up from just before start at 7-8 to about 11 at the start to about 15 about a 1/4 of the way to the windward mark. We were easing the main when we got overpowered to almost rounding up but I couldn't get her on her feet enough to quit fighting the rudder. Given that we were fighting our way upwind I was reluctant to ease the jib but I was getting quite the bubble in the main so I knew we weren't at peak trim. Obviously a reef was in order but I didn't want to take time for that, would you guys have eased the jib and given up a few degrees to sail faster? We were getting anywhere from 6 to 6.8 which is pretty good for us upwind.
I know this is a bit tangent to Don's original question but I thought it close enough to ask here instead of a new thread.
Dan
I know this is a bit tangent to Don's original question but I thought it close enough to ask here instead of a new thread.
Dan
You should never ever fight with your rudder. Its amazingly slow and you can damage your boat.
For sure jib cars back a notch and a slight ease. Traveler down 1/2 way between centered and down, then sheet on until the leach tightens and the boat hits the desired amount of heel. The weather helm will be gone. Only the back half of the main will be in trim, but that's what you want. Its called 'sailing the back half', and it keeps power in the main and saves the leach from damage. The front half will have a speed bubble in it from the genoa but that's OK. You have all the power you need (overpowered) and you're just trying to manage it.
For sure jib cars back a notch and a slight ease. Traveler down 1/2 way between centered and down, then sheet on until the leach tightens and the boat hits the desired amount of heel. The weather helm will be gone. Only the back half of the main will be in trim, but that's what you want. Its called 'sailing the back half', and it keeps power in the main and saves the leach from damage. The front half will have a speed bubble in it from the genoa but that's OK. You have all the power you need (overpowered) and you're just trying to manage it.
Thanks @Jackdaw that is very helpful.
We had a lot of fun this weekend on the lake with wind finally in the 8-10 knots. Gusting was recorded as 15 knots, but felt higher in certain areas. The lake had some chop and rollers also, My daughter and I sailed first thing in the morning and had no issues, while my wife and son joined us at noon.
By then we were getting a very constant 10+ knots and gusting was still showing 15 knots but felt higher in certain areas. We actually never had any significant heel compared to other times where I and my daughter used the leeward cockpit seat side to brace on, but my wife was not happy with the conditions. I never felt any fighting or issues in the tiller and I practiced the easing of the main like you noted above to keep us more upright. I felt fine as did my daughter and we did several tacking and moved to a reach. I want her to enjoy so this wasn't it for her and we head back in with no drama.
She agreed that she really needs to get confidents in the boat and that next year when our local instructor offers the 101 course that I and my daughter took she and my son will be taking it.
We had a lot of fun this weekend on the lake with wind finally in the 8-10 knots. Gusting was recorded as 15 knots, but felt higher in certain areas. The lake had some chop and rollers also, My daughter and I sailed first thing in the morning and had no issues, while my wife and son joined us at noon.
By then we were getting a very constant 10+ knots and gusting was still showing 15 knots but felt higher in certain areas. We actually never had any significant heel compared to other times where I and my daughter used the leeward cockpit seat side to brace on, but my wife was not happy with the conditions. I never felt any fighting or issues in the tiller and I practiced the easing of the main like you noted above to keep us more upright. I felt fine as did my daughter and we did several tacking and moved to a reach. I want her to enjoy so this wasn't it for her and we head back in with no drama.
She agreed that she really needs to get confidents in the boat and that next year when our local instructor offers the 101 course that I and my daughter took she and my son will be taking it.
Thanks Clay, we were shorthanded and therefore had the traveller centred but my instinct was to go the other way and raise it to create more twist. I thought lowering the traveller would cause the upper leach to close and cause more heel and weather helm, where am I wrong? Further, my thinking was that I wanted the boom closer to centreline to avoid choking the slot. I do understand moving the jib cars back for twist.
The information coming from this forum is amazing and I am grateful for the learning.
Dan
The information coming from this forum is amazing and I am grateful for the learning.
Dan
What you describe can work, but it requires much more attention to keep the sail from flogging. Lowering and trimming so the leach tightens to the point where it does not flog is easier. I've used both and this is the better way.
Moving the traveler does not effect twist. Think of a screen door with a pin in the corner that runs in a groove on the floor. When you open and close the screen door does the shape of the screen change? Obviously, it doesn't. All the traveler does is change the angle of attack. The movement you speak of will increase or decrease heel depending on which way you go.
Interesting.
If you hit a puff after adjusting as you have described, would I be correct in assuming that you would compensate by dropping the traveler to maintain correct helm/heel vs. dumping some mainsheet?