DDW Faster Than The Wind

Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I have been following a thread now over on SA for a looooooong while about two guys who set out to prove that you can move dead down wind faster than the wind using only wind power. The guys at Thin Air Designs just set an official record of 2.8 times the wind speed in 10 knots of wind using NO stored energy and only wind power.

North American Land Sailing Association just declared the record.
http://www.nalsa.org./

If you want a good laugh read the 153 pages of thread I have been following since 2008 here.

Please be advised that the link will take you to the often vile institute of Sailing Anarchy. If you are adverse to "F bombs" then don't click. There are a LOT of people now eating crow on that forum...;)

Congrats to the boys who starred physics in the face and said screw "theory" we'll prove it in practice!!

http://www.fasterthanthewind.org/
 

CalebD

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Jun 27, 2006
1,479
Tartan 27' 1967 Nyack, NY
You are correct MS. I also don't see how it is possible but ice boats routinely reach insane speeds so I'll take my Crow medium rare please! Physics be damned.
I guess that at some point relative wind is the stronger force and takes over. Why not sail into your the wind you have created?
 
Jun 7, 2007
875
Pearson- 323- Mobile,Al
I don't believe it!!!! Sounds like a perpetual motion machine and they don't exist. I'd like to see some peer reviewed articles. This would have to be published in Science or Nature magazines if it is real.
 
Jun 6, 2004
173
Catalina 38 San Francisco Bay
I just took a quick peek at the http://www.nalsa.org./ website.
The craft is using an odd propeller-looking device as its' 'sail'. It appears to me that this rig might develop an apparent wind in front of the 'blades' as they rotate by wrapping around the foils and creating a low pressure area in front of the blades. So ,.. DDW ~ yes .. but utilizing Bernouili to achieve wind speed + ... The same way we go to windward.... sort of ... !
 
Jun 7, 2007
875
Pearson- 323- Mobile,Al
Here is the thing as I understand it. Wind pushes it forward and the wheels turn the blades like in an airplane. The blades are pushing against the wind driven by the wheels which turn the blades faster and faster as the wheels turn faster and faster. I confess that I am not sure that it is even theoretically possible. Plus the energy transfers would have to be very efficent . I don't believe it but admit that I might be wrong. It would seem to me that it is such a breakthrough that we'd be hearing a lot of news reports. Seems like "cold fusion" too good to be true. Maybe we could hook up a water prop on the front of our boats to turn a air prop so that our sailboats can go faster down wind!!!
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
It appeared to me that the propellor was pitched wrong to rotate as it did with the wind from behind. Freeze frame the early sequences when the blades are just starting to turn.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I confess that I am not sure that it is even theoretically possible.
Don't let "theoretical book physics" get in the way of real world practice.:D Everything sounds good in "theory" until someone builds a device and proves the "theory" wrong..:)

I've been watching this one for over two years and was a believer from the beginning but still had doubts. But when they got the Google money and corporate backing and then set out to verify a world record and proved it at 2.8 times the speed of wind, we're not talking 10.2 knots in 10 knots of wind we are talking over 27 knots DDW in 10 knots being propelled by nothing other than the 10 knot wind. The verifiable record made it very obvious that book learned physics has been wrong on this one.

I am sure this will get published the record was only verified yesterday.


More reading:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/06/wind-powered-car-travels_n_636871.html

http://autogreenmag.com/2010/07/17/...go-faster-than-the-wind-also-internet-fights/

http://www.switched.com/2010/07/08/wind-powered-car-outraces-the-wind-leaving-legions-of-net-nerds/


This one is real amusing as a bunch of so called physicists poke holes in the "theory" of DDWFTTW thinking they are smarter than they really are.
http://scienceblogs.com/dotphysics/2008/12/dwfttw-the-saga-continues.php
 
Sep 25, 2008
615
Morgan 415 Out Island Rogersville, AL
When I had a mooring in Camden harbor there was a guy who fit a wind mill to a life boat. He could go directly into the wind with the contraption. I don't remember what his down-wind performance was. It would smart to walk into the prop.
 
Sep 25, 2008
1,096
CS 30 Toronto
Exceed the speed of wind

Check out the BMW-Oracle tri that won the America Cup back from the Swiss. It can do 25kt on 5kt of true wind. It is a fact. Not sure about DDW.

Boat sails on apparant wind. We routinely do 6.5+ (hull speed) in 7Kt of True Wind because the apparant wind will be reaching 11kt.

You can reach or slightly exceed wind speed with a big Spinnaker going down wind. Not sure about DDW because it is a very bad point of sail.

I suppose if the water drag is reduced enough, you can go beyond hull speed. Since boat sail on apparant wind, you can go faster and faster until the drag = drive.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Re: Exceed the speed of wind

I will accept this when Scientific American publishes the details. If this thing realy works he should be able to travel in a dead flat calm. Start out with 10 kts and just keep going when the wind dies.
 
Jul 28, 2010
914
Boston Whaler Montauk New Orleans
Re: Exceed the speed of wind

Wow! Hadn't heard of this quest before, but it is interesting. Ross, I don't think theoretically they are claiming it would work in dead calm. In the article from one of the links above, the guy said it is NOT like a perpetual motion machine because there is an external source - the wind. Without wind, the vehicle doesn't go.

One thing I thought of is that, given the pitch of the blades, the wind from behind would tend to turn the blades the opposite way the wheels are turning. It seems to me there would need to be an amazing gear ration in there to overcome that counter force.
 
Dec 25, 2008
1,580
catalina 310 Elk River
It looks to me to be variable pitch with some control mechanism.
Also, I don't see any connection from the prop to the wheels, if so it some how disconnects when it folds up?
Not a believer, yet.
 

Attachments

Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
I will accept this when Scientific American publishes the details. If this thing realy works he should be able to travel in a dead flat calm. Start out with 10 kts and just keep going when the wind dies.
I'll grant it is counter intuitive--I thought so too at first glance--but in part that is because we are thinking "boat."

A boat (fast boat or ice boat) can go over windspeed on a reach because of the oposotion of forces, not because of majic. We accept that. In this case they go fast because of the oposition of the ground (remember, the wheels don't slide) and the air. Imagine a vehical, between the ground and a high-force conveyor belt, with the right gearing; you can make a vehical that will squirt out, faster than the conveyor. That we can understand, I think.

This would not extend to a boat or to an ice boat. It will not work in a calm. It could work on a reach, but perhaps not much better than an ice boat or land yacht built to the same standard. I suspect the math will work dead to weather too, but it won't be as much fun.

I know that last statement will catch in some ones throat, but think of it this way: if you place a windmill on a cart and run the drive to the wheels at a very low gear ratio, will it not gradually creap into the wind? Kind of a pointless exersize, but fun I guess.

None of these are perpetual motion machines; they consume more wind energy that they use to move.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
There have been some very clever efforts on things like this and they always attract supporters. But there are no machines of this nature that have stood the test of time and close examination by independant parties.
I will wait to see it on the evening news and in National Geographic, and Scientific American.
 
Oct 8, 2008
362
MacGregor/Venture 25 Winthrop Harbor, IL Drummond Island,MI
A helicopter can auto rotate when it loses engine power. Air flows through the rotor disc to keep it spinning. The airfoil shape of the spinning blades produces lift. The STORED energy of the spinning disc allows the helicopter to break its descent at touchdown. This kinetic stored energy is FINITE. Bad timing with the collective would be a bad thing. I'm guessing this thing works the same way. Wind blows, makes it go. Stored rotor energy makes it go faster than wind until energy is dissipated(changing pitch just like a helicopter), slows down and cycle repeats itself. Isn't that what that graph shows. It doesn't continously go faster than the wind.

J
 
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Dec 25, 2008
1,580
catalina 310 Elk River
I'm generally a skeptic by nature, but I'm beginning to understand how this could really work.
How does a sail allow the boat to travel faster that the wind on a reach? It does this by creating a low pressure zone in front of the sail. As the air is moving faster over the outside surface verses the inside surface it is creating lift. In this case the blade may be acting like the sail that has an angle to the wind. From it's rotation it may be creating a low pressure zone right in front of the blades surface sucking the vehicle forward.
 
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Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
There have been some very clever efforts on things like this and they always attract supporters. But there are no machines of this nature that have stood the test of time and close examination by independant parties.
I will wait to see it on the evening news and in National Geographic, and Scientific American.
Ross,

You might want to stay close to shore so you don't fall off the edge of the earth....:D:D

BTW Scientific America is full of the same "read it in a book" types who said this could not be done. It has been done, and recorded and witnessed multiple ways, but if Scientific America says it's so, rather than ACTUAL VIDEO, it must be true..;) This record was only ratified yesterday and I am certain will be published..

Remember, be careful of the edge when sailing..:eek::)
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,606
Frers 33 41426 Westport, CT
I will accept this when Scientific American publishes the details.
This is the first I have heard of this, It has taken me about an hour to figure out how this works, as I was as confused as most people as to how this works.

I finally realized that the key is not the apparent wind for the car, but for the propeller. This is the part where everyone, myself included gets really confused. When the car is traveling at the same speed as the wind, and You would think that the apparent wind is zero. But you are only thinking about the apparent wind speed relative to the car chassis, when you should actually be looking at the wind relative to the propeller, which is rotating through the air rather rapidly, and seeing a strong apparent wind.

think of it like this. The propeller blades are like your main sail, on a near reach. They are spinning in a circle. When the car is going less than ~2x the speed of the wind, the wind is directly off your stern. The boat will move, but not that fast. (this is when the car is starting out, and hardly moving, most of the wind force is just pushing the car, there is no airfoil yet.)

As the boat speeds up, the apparent wind shifts, because the blades start to rotate, and you are now operating with the apparent wind, which would be like sailing on a broad reach, and as the apparent wind increases you shift to a beam reach. As the blades increase in rotational speed, and the apparent wind shifts from being astern, to ahead, the apparent wind is now like being close hauled. Eventually as the forward speed increases and the propeller's apparent wind shifts to coming from ahead, it is like pinching instead of reefing in high winds, you are still moving at hull speed, even though the sails are not operating to max efficiency, you have all the power you need. At a point though, the sails will start to back wind, which is what happens to the propeller's apparent wind when the car exceeds something around 3 times the apparent wind.

While they now have a variable pitch prop, the original tests were using a fixed pitch prop, so from the time the blades start rotating, they are essentially fixed somewhere between a near reach and close hauled, with the wind off the beam, and is why the car accelerates so slowly, the blades are not trimmed properly until the car hits at least 2x the speed of the wind.


How does any of this matter? When the car starts out from a stop, it's just the windage of the car that starts it moving, and the movement turns the wheels, which spin the propeller (the key to success being the gear ratio), [*this section is wrong, see the edit below* as the car increases ground speed it soon hits a critical speed (probably between 0.25-0.5 times true wind speed) where the propeller begins to act as an airfoil and spins freely, and induces zero drag on the wheels (allowing the car to speed up by the amount of drag the propeller had been inducing on the wheels), and this increase in the speed of the car will then cause the direction of force to reverse so that the propeller is now driving the wheels,] and propelling the car faster, and simultaneously increasing the speed of the apparent wind while pushing it farther forward increasing the lifting force of the propeller, and thus driving the wheels, until the point where the propeller is over trimmed and begins to backwind.

While I am not sure I am 100% correct on the details in the final paragraph, I am pretty sure that I have the concept down pretty accurately.


EDIT: after some more thought, I realized that the propeller NEVER drives the wheel, the wheels are ALWAYS driving the prop. the forward motion is 100% generated by the lift of the propeller, so my last paragraph is mostly incorrect, but everything else is dead on. I marked the section that was wrong above, but otherwise left it intact.
 
Apr 22, 2009
342
Pearson P-31 Quantico
And I saw David Blaine levitate people too

Sorry but this is just as believable.

Let's see the whole video, let's see the car, let's see this on myth busters.
 
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