Cutless Bearing-No Strut-Will this work?

[Solstice]

I need to replace my CB as it is showing a bit of vertical wear. I have a shaft log with no strut, and I have been trying to come up with a way to press the new CB in w/o removing the shaft.
This is the idea I came up with and I am looking for flaws in my idea:
I want to use a spacer, a couple of washers (per MS idea of greasing two so they don't bind), and using the the prop nut as my 'press'. The two obvious areas that concern me is damaging the thread on my SS shaft or somehow altering the press of the coupling on the Tran. side. My coupling has two dimpled set screws and I may attach a donut zinc on the shaft to help offset any pull. My thinking is that the prop in reverse generates plenty of pull, but still wanted to get some feedback. Good idea??

 

[Rich Stidger]

I'd like to know how you intend to get the old one out.

 

[Solstice]

Rich,
The old one is designed to be pulled out via the area that is exposed--in theory. If grabbing it and twisting it off doesn't work, I will try drilling and tapping 3 screws in the bearing making sure not to score the shaft, then attaching seizing wire to the screw heads. I will then put a block of wood at the end of the shaft with holes to feed the seizing wire to with bolts that will allow me to tighten/ twist. Just another hair brained thought on how to do this. Can you tell I'm trying to find a feasible way not to pull the shaft/drop the rudder?
The CB has 2 set screws and is supposedly designed to be removed without the need to remove the shaft. We will see...

 

[Maine Sail]

Rich,
The old one is designed to be pulled out via the area that is exposed--in theory. If grabbing it and twisting it off doesn't work, I will try drilling and tapping 3 screws in the bearing making sure not to score the shaft, then attaching seizing wire to the screw heads. I will then put a block of wood at the end of the shaft with holes to feed the seizing wire to with bolts that will allow me to tighten/ twist. Just another hair brained thought on how to do this. Can you tell I'm trying to find a feasible way not to pull the shaft/drop the rudder?
The CB has 2 set screws and is supposedly designed to be removed without the need to remove the shaft. We will see...

If it just twists out it is not properly fit. A cutlass bearing is always a light press to bearing press fit into a strut or a shaft log. The set screws are just added insurance. The set screws are not intended to take the "load".. The proper procedure for removal is to remove the shaft and cut the bearing shell out of the shaft log.

 

[Solstice]

If it just twists out it is not properly fit. A cutlass bearing is always a light press to bearing press fit into a strut or a shaft log. The set screws are just added insurance. The set screws are not intended to take the "load".. The proper procedure for removal is to remove the shaft and cut the bearing shell out of the shaft log.

Thanks Maine Sail. I have typically removed/replaced my CB's using a borrowed StrutPro. Since that is not feasible, I've been trying to come up with a way to avoid removing the shaft. If it doesn't work, I'll end up removing the shaft anyway, so thought I would give this a try. If I do end up removing the shaft, I will probably still bang it out of the boat from inside as I was never comfortable with my ability to cut the bearing without damaging the log-especially since it is fiberglass.

 

[alanwir]

cutless bearing

Solstice:
I had this job to do on my beneteau about 2 years ago and also had more to fear than you. The CB on a beneteau has a rubber flange exposed to the outside which should assist in pulling it off. I earlier wrapped some line around my propeller which ultimately sheared off the flange leaving me no easy access to the flange.

Your 3 screw idea will work but highly recommend a second little trick, dump some soap suds down the shaft and wait at least 2-3 hrs for the suds to penetrate down to the CB. It's not like it will just come off easy, you are going to have to do a full court press with some muscle power as you pull down, but I was able to get mine off. FYI, do not use WD-40 or any other lubricating oils, as you will make the situation worse, not better->soap suds only, from inside the boat and run then down the shaft.

It was expressed to me at the yard that the shaft would have to come off, however using the above suggested combination and having zero rubber flange to work with, I was able to get the CB off.

Of course the propeller blade has to come off the shaft and if your craft is a beneteau, when pulling the blade off the shaft, note the position of the washers, as they must go on the correct way when completing the job.
alanwir

 

[alanwir]

Hmmm, see Cat guy and I gave beneteau plan

Solstice;
Sorry about that, missed the fact that you were Catalina owner
alanwir

 

[Solstice]

Solstice:
I had this job to do on my beneteau about 2 years ago and also had more to fear than you. The CB on a beneteau has a rubber flange exposed to the outside which should assist in pulling it off. I earlier wrapped some line around my propeller which ultimately sheared off the flange leaving me no easy access to the flange.

Your 3 screw idea will work but highly recommend a second little trick, dump some soap suds down the shaft and wait at least 2-3 hrs for the suds to penetrate down to the CB. It's not like it will just come off easy, you are going to have to do a full court press with some muscle power as you pull down, but I was able to get mine off. FYI, do not use WD-40 or any other lubricating oils, as you will make the situation worse, not better->soap suds only, from inside the boat and run then down the shaft.

It was expressed to me at the yard that the shaft would have to come off, however using the above suggested combination and having zero rubber flange to work with, I was able to get the CB off.

Of course the propeller blade has to come off the shaft and if your craft is a beneteau, when pulling the blade off the shaft, note the position of the washers, as they must go on the correct way when completing the job.
alanwir

alanwir,

Thanks for the tips and some renewed optimism! I did not planning on any lubricants other than dish detergent on the shaft and glycerin on the new bearing when it goes back on. I was going to post the pic with the Prop already off, but had an old picture handy. I plan on using a spacer and the prop nut to press the new one back.
My main reason for not pulling the shaft is because of the logistical nightmare of dropping the rudder. I am on asphalt, so no hole digging is possible, so arranging the use of the lift during spring launch season would probably cost me a month of an already short sailing season.
The C350 has a similar setup (as do all new 5 Series Catalina's), but many of the older 350's had the phenolic CB's and they would disintegrate when skipper's tried to grab a hold of them to remove. I spoke with Gerry Douglas at Catalina and he is the one informed me that they are left 'proud' to remove without shaft removal. We shall see....

 

[capta]

There are just some things that you should let the boat yard do. What may take you hours and hours to do they can do in minutes, with the proper equipment. Equipment that you need not spend the money on for such very occasional use.
IMO you should save yourself the grief and hassle and bite the bullet and spend the few bucks to insure the job gets done correctly and w/o damage. Pulling it and replacing it, both.

 

[kloudie1]

Measure the cutless OD and select a pipe threader (or a machine thread) that you can use to thread the OD of the part that is sticking out; screw a female threaded pipe onto that, and hook on a slide hammer and you can pull the CB without removing the shaft. The new one can be driven in with a pipe the same size as the CB Outer Diameter. I wouldn't use the prop shaft as a puller or pusher because of possible damage to the transmission bearings and/or motor mounts.
As Capta says, sometimes it is easier to let the guys with the proper tools get it done

 

[Rich Stidger]

I think capta has the right idea. Although I am a confirmed DIYer, after my prop was off my boatyard changed the CB in my strut for a total of two shop hours. I supplied the CB because they could not get one for 3-4 days and I was willing to drive a 40 mile round trip to pick one up. The shop work was the best $150 Ive spent with them.

 

[Solstice]

I think capta has the right idea. Although I am a confirmed DIYer, after my prop was off my boatyard changed the CB in my strut for a total of two shop hours. I supplied the CB because they could not get one for 3-4 days and I was willing to drive a 40 mile round trip to pick one up. The shop work was the best $150 Ive spent with them.

Thanks guys,
This isn't a situation where I'm trying to save a few bucks. Although I am a DiYer, I know my limitations and don't think twice about hiring a pro. However, in this case I'm trying to avoid the necessity to have the boat put on the lift to drop the rudder, nothing more.

Although I've changed many CBs myself, this is the first boat I've owned w/o a strut. Whether I do it or a pro does it, if I have to remove the rudder, which entails getting the boat in the sling, removing the rudder, removing the strut, taking the strut and coupler in to get refaced and putting it back together. Since I'm sandwiched in for the winter, there's no way the yard will do this until spring. Once the spring launch season starts, they won't tie up the lift for this work.
I definitely will not put any force on the tranny side of the drive train--MS warnings on not using any kind of slide hammer or hammering force is well heeded. Thanks again for the feedback...

 

[Witzend]

Would it be easier to pull the engine up enough to slide the shaft inside? I did this with my C310, did not need to disconnect any hoses or wires, just removed a bulkhead and lifted the aft end up a bit.

 

[Solstice]

Would it be easier to pull the engine up enough to slide the shaft inside? I did this with my C310, did not need to disconnect any hoses or wires, just removed a bulkhead and lifted the aft end up a bit.

Witzend,

Lifting the engine would certainly be a better option than dropping the rudder due to the logistics, however I would have the same challenge of press fitting the CB without stressing the stern tube. Curious as to how you did that. I was searching for some creative ways to properly do this-that is pressing in the bearing and not stressing the Tranny in any way and I came across this interesting approach:

http://memoryrose.blogspot.com/2008/12/cutlass-bearings-modification-and.html

It occurs to me that if I remove the shaft it would address the removal, but not the insertion of a new bearing. If I used a thread rod, I would still end up putting undo stress on the inboard end of the stern tube.
I have a friend who is a machinist and I think I will be building a tool consisting of two metal plates With some threaded rods to pull/press the bearing. I will post this if it works as most boats without struts face this challenge and the tools like a strut pro don't work in this situation. I also find that most boat yard 'pros' simply use brute force and don't press the bearings in correctly. Thanks Witzend....

 

[Witzend]

C310s have struts, so I did not face the same challenges that you have.

Do you have a square surface to work with on the inside of the stern tube?

If the stern tube wall is at least 3/16-1/4" thick, I would think you would not have an issue using a threaded rod with backing washers to press the new bearing in place. Maybe slightly bevel the aft inside edge of the tube, and then take a file and knock off the corner of the forward end of the bearing casing to get it started without digging into the fiberglass.

 

[Philip_Oceanis 361]

After replacing the rubber cutlass bearing is it recommeded to lubricate the new bearing before inserting to the shaft S/S tube? If yes, with what? Normal marine grease?

Edit: Just to add. The cutlass bearing is of course lubricated by water. My question is whether to lubricate a little bit with grease the outside diameter of the bearing before sliding up the shaft tube.

 

[Solstice]

After replacing the rubber cutlass bearing is it recommeded to lubricate the new bearing before inserting to the shaft S/S tube? If yes, with what? Normal marine grease?

Edit: Just to add. The cutlass bearing is of course lubricated by water. My question is whether to lubricate a little bit with grease the outside diameter of the bearing before sliding up the shaft tube.

I use Glycerin, available at CVS or similar. You can also use dish soap.

 

[redhead78]

cutlass brg install

Check this one out, look at the end, I almost crapped when I saw it. PO said he thought there was a little too much drip, ha, this was with the old engine and drive train which I replaced, sounded like there were a dozen little men down there installing a roof at 1700RPM. If I want to change I have to move the engine, as the shaft is 66" long and will not pass by the rudder skeg, I believe you call it. Jeanneau uses all rubber brgs, the one I installed still is good after 3 seasons... Red

 

[Philip_Oceanis 361]

Is a brand new rubber cutlass bearing supposed to be a tight fit on the shaft?
I have just replaced mine, I am sure it's the correct one, but it's not tight (I can push it up and down the whole shaft).

Thanks

 

[Solstice]

Is a brand new rubber cutlass bearing supposed to be a tight fit on the shaft?
I have just replaced mine, I am sure it's the correct one, but it's not tight (I can push it up and down the whole shaft).

Thanks

I was the OP on this topic as I thought I had a bit too much play on a brand new boat. After going through the aggravation of removal-replacement, I was also concerned that the new CB had the same play as the one I thought was worn.
I ended up calling the two major manufacturers of CB's, MORSE and Johnson Duramax. I spoke with engineers at both companies (very helpful on both counts). Both companies provided me with their designed tolerances:

OD Tolerance: 1.501 +/- .001
ID Tolerance: .003-.008

These are obviously for a 1x1.5x4 CB, but both engineers said that these CB's are designed to work on a film of water and should never be tight on the shaft, as they will simply wear. I know there is a lot of discussion on this stuff, so I decided to go to the source.
Interestingly enough, my real concern was that my CB was not 'press fit' into my shaft log, which is fiberglass. Both engineers also said this not uncommon for a fiberglass shaft log as is the case on my boat. I also spoke with the designer of my boat who tried to set me at ease regarding the ease with which I could remove/insert the new bearing. With additional thanks to Maine Sail, who was kind enough to communicate with me on this privately, it looks like I will have to trust the manufacturers and designer that my CB will be fine with very little 'press' and primarily be held in place via the set screws. Not sure if I am comfortable with this yet, but not sure I have a choice. Hope this helps...