Hello, I'm new to sailing so go easy on me! I have been sailing my Catalina 22 since July. I want to become more proficient at sailing, so I have been reading books and experimenting on my boat. The current book I am reading, "Sail power : the complete guide to sails and sail handeling" by Wallace Ross with Carl Chapman describes how you tension the luff of main with either a cunningham or the downhaul. The book does not state (or I missed) why you would one or the other. Any ideas / comments / hints? I have a downhaul on the boom, and there is a hole near the tack of the mainsail that I just learned is for the cunningham. I don't have any lines run to the hole, but I could probably rig one up if it would help. I have a traveler, downhaul, outhaul, and adjustable jib blocks. Now I just need to learn how/when/why to use them! Thanks, Barry Lenoble lenoble@optonline.net
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Jim Wolfgram
One thought.
Here's my thinking, but I'm sure Don G. will weigh in with the authoritative answer. FYI - Pick up his book, I've got it's terrific and geared towards people like yourself. I think that the downhaul is applicable on a boat where the boom is attached to the mast on a slide. My old ericson 29 had that arrangment. You do the intitial hoist, then tension with the downhaul, e.g., pull the boom down on the track. The cunning ham is for a situation where you have the boom mounted at a fixed point. The current situation on my Cat 320. I use the cunningham to tension the luff and move the draft forward. hope this helps, and do pick up Don's book, a good deal and a quick read.
Here's my thinking, but I'm sure Don G. will weigh in with the authoritative answer. FYI - Pick up his book, I've got it's terrific and geared towards people like yourself. I think that the downhaul is applicable on a boat where the boom is attached to the mast on a slide. My old ericson 29 had that arrangment. You do the intitial hoist, then tension with the downhaul, e.g., pull the boom down on the track. The cunning ham is for a situation where you have the boom mounted at a fixed point. The current situation on my Cat 320. I use the cunningham to tension the luff and move the draft forward. hope this helps, and do pick up Don's book, a good deal and a quick read.
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Chris Burti
Thought and a half
I've been sailing for 35+ years and have learned only recently (or have been informed if not correct) that both are used on sliding gooseneck. This is of a particular concern in class racing where there are strict requirements on sail measurement. On such boats you will see a black band near the top and bottom of the mast. If a mainsail has stretched enough for the boom to drop below the bottom band when the head is at the top band, you would use the cunningham to shorten the luff preventing the boom from dropping below the band while the downhaul moves the draft forward and keeps everything taught.
I've been sailing for 35+ years and have learned only recently (or have been informed if not correct) that both are used on sliding gooseneck. This is of a particular concern in class racing where there are strict requirements on sail measurement. On such boats you will see a black band near the top and bottom of the mast. If a mainsail has stretched enough for the boom to drop below the bottom band when the head is at the top band, you would use the cunningham to shorten the luff preventing the boom from dropping below the band while the downhaul moves the draft forward and keeps everything taught.
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Paul McGhee
Check here
The North Sails web site has a great animated course on sail trim. Paul http://www.northsails.co.uk/media/fast/mainsail/default.htm
The North Sails web site has a great animated course on sail trim. Paul http://www.northsails.co.uk/media/fast/mainsail/default.htm
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Don Guillette
Cunningham Vs Downhaul
Barry: I'm glad you want to become a more proficient sailor. So Many sailors just roll out the jib and raise the main and they then call it sailing. The boat does move through the water but so much more enjoyment can be obtained by fine tuning the controls. The problem with most books, and I research over 25 books, 5 videos and over 100 sail related articles when I was writing my book, was I had no idea what the authors were talking about. Additionally, the infomation was all over the book. The cunningham might be on pages 25, 52, 135 and 225. I took all the infomation ever written on the cunningham and put it on one page. I include every thing ever written on telltails on 6 pages and did the same with all the other controls for the main and jib. Also, a lot of authors used complicated equations I did not understand. I was never good at math. I went to Catholic grammer school in the late 40's and I knew why God created me but I wasn't good with calculations. I did know what a steel edged wooden ruler was as the Nuns used it many times on my knuckles!! My book is designed for the begginer to very high intermediate and it is written with those folks in mind - I wrote it as I saw it through my eyes as I remember how hard it was for me to understand sail trim. Anyway, on to your question. The first thing you should ask yourself is WHY am I making a particular sail trim adjustment and what adjustment do I want to make. The reason you want to adjust the cunningham or the downhaul or the halyard (they all do the same thing) is to change the draft position. Review Ross's book or mine to find out eactly what draft position is. Also look up draft depth, twist and angle of attack. Unless you have a complete understanding of those 4 items, sail trim will never make any sense to you. Another thing to do is take Paul's suggestion and go to the North Sail site and check out the animation. Jim Wolgram gave the answer on the downhaul. The boom is on a slide and not in a fixed position. Without a way to pull the luff down you could not adjust the sail. Additionally, with a downhaul you don't need a cunnigham. Now, consider this, look at the money I just saved you on the purchase of a cunnigham. Take what you saved and buy my book!! I sell it with a 100% guarantee - if your not satisfied, I'll return your money and you can keep the book. Take a look at my sail trim chart, while your at it.
Barry: I'm glad you want to become a more proficient sailor. So Many sailors just roll out the jib and raise the main and they then call it sailing. The boat does move through the water but so much more enjoyment can be obtained by fine tuning the controls. The problem with most books, and I research over 25 books, 5 videos and over 100 sail related articles when I was writing my book, was I had no idea what the authors were talking about. Additionally, the infomation was all over the book. The cunningham might be on pages 25, 52, 135 and 225. I took all the infomation ever written on the cunningham and put it on one page. I include every thing ever written on telltails on 6 pages and did the same with all the other controls for the main and jib. Also, a lot of authors used complicated equations I did not understand. I was never good at math. I went to Catholic grammer school in the late 40's and I knew why God created me but I wasn't good with calculations. I did know what a steel edged wooden ruler was as the Nuns used it many times on my knuckles!! My book is designed for the begginer to very high intermediate and it is written with those folks in mind - I wrote it as I saw it through my eyes as I remember how hard it was for me to understand sail trim. Anyway, on to your question. The first thing you should ask yourself is WHY am I making a particular sail trim adjustment and what adjustment do I want to make. The reason you want to adjust the cunningham or the downhaul or the halyard (they all do the same thing) is to change the draft position. Review Ross's book or mine to find out eactly what draft position is. Also look up draft depth, twist and angle of attack. Unless you have a complete understanding of those 4 items, sail trim will never make any sense to you. Another thing to do is take Paul's suggestion and go to the North Sail site and check out the animation. Jim Wolgram gave the answer on the downhaul. The boom is on a slide and not in a fixed position. Without a way to pull the luff down you could not adjust the sail. Additionally, with a downhaul you don't need a cunnigham. Now, consider this, look at the money I just saved you on the purchase of a cunnigham. Take what you saved and buy my book!! I sell it with a 100% guarantee - if your not satisfied, I'll return your money and you can keep the book. Take a look at my sail trim chart, while your at it.
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Butch Beard
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Don Guillette
Cunningham vs Downhaul
Butch: Thank you for asking. You can get my book right here on Sailboatowners.com. Take a look at their ship store and you'll find it. When you call them to order, ask for my good friend Karisa and tell her Don G said to say hello and told you to call. While your talking to her ask her about my Sail Trim Chart, which identifies all points of sail and wind conditions and gives you the settings for your mainsail and jib plus a whole bunch more sail trim stuff. The Chart tells you WHAT to do and the Book tells you WHY you are making a particular sail trim adjustment.
Butch: Thank you for asking. You can get my book right here on Sailboatowners.com. Take a look at their ship store and you'll find it. When you call them to order, ask for my good friend Karisa and tell her Don G said to say hello and told you to call. While your talking to her ask her about my Sail Trim Chart, which identifies all points of sail and wind conditions and gives you the settings for your mainsail and jib plus a whole bunch more sail trim stuff. The Chart tells you WHAT to do and the Book tells you WHY you are making a particular sail trim adjustment.
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David Stone
He still needs a Cunningham
if he is racing that C22. I raced them for a lot of years & I know he will get protested for exceeding the max luff length if he doesn't have a stop to keep the boom at the top of the lower black band. Then he should use the Cunningham to move the draft. He should also mark the halyard so that he knows the headboard is at the upper black band. That will keep him race legal. I don't know about the newer 22's but the older ones ( pre 95 or so )had lightweight, fairly bendy rigs. To go fast you need to bend the mast to flatten & use the cunningham to shape the main. With no cunningham, the sail gets ugly when you bend the mast. Sail Power is a great book if you can hang with all the technical stuff. The technical stuff is what I needed. I also had a naval architect friend who could explain what I couldn't understand. Sometimes I just had to go do it. If it didn't work like the book said, I started pestering other 22 owners until I found the answer. Its a great boat to learn in. Well... maybe I'm a little biased. It was my first boat.
if he is racing that C22. I raced them for a lot of years & I know he will get protested for exceeding the max luff length if he doesn't have a stop to keep the boom at the top of the lower black band. Then he should use the Cunningham to move the draft. He should also mark the halyard so that he knows the headboard is at the upper black band. That will keep him race legal. I don't know about the newer 22's but the older ones ( pre 95 or so )had lightweight, fairly bendy rigs. To go fast you need to bend the mast to flatten & use the cunningham to shape the main. With no cunningham, the sail gets ugly when you bend the mast. Sail Power is a great book if you can hang with all the technical stuff. The technical stuff is what I needed. I also had a naval architect friend who could explain what I couldn't understand. Sometimes I just had to go do it. If it didn't work like the book said, I started pestering other 22 owners until I found the answer. Its a great boat to learn in. Well... maybe I'm a little biased. It was my first boat.
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Brian
Don, I gotta ask
You stated, in your reply, "with a downhaul you don't need a cunningham". Wouldn't you need one to adjust luff tension when reefed?
You stated, in your reply, "with a downhaul you don't need a cunningham". Wouldn't you need one to adjust luff tension when reefed?
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Pops Landing
On My h25
If I am reefed, my cuningham point is no longer available (its a shorter point than the reef point). I use the halyard to move the draft (I use a velcro attached black stripe for RACING). Just kidding, I would never cheat.
If I am reefed, my cuningham point is no longer available (its a shorter point than the reef point). I use the halyard to move the draft (I use a velcro attached black stripe for RACING). Just kidding, I would never cheat.
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Tom S.
Brian when you are reefed, the cunningham is
Already on the boom under the sail material of the reef and you would never use a cunningham, nor could you really get to it. A cunningham is the first grommet about the tack and much further below the first reef tack grommet
Already on the boom under the sail material of the reef and you would never use a cunningham, nor could you really get to it. A cunningham is the first grommet about the tack and much further below the first reef tack grommet
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Dan McGuire
Downhaul
I have been sailing for about six years, however, there are few sailors where I sail. Why do you need a downhaul when you could tighten the halyard? I guess I am missing something.
I have been sailing for about six years, however, there are few sailors where I sail. Why do you need a downhaul when you could tighten the halyard? I guess I am missing something.
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Frank Ladd
So Many sailors just roll out the jib
Hey...I resemble that remark. The truth is that I no longer race so I usually just adjust the sails and sail the luff by watching the tell tales and steering. The only time I'm doing "performance sailing" is when conditions are really bad or I'm trying to make a point without having to tack. Still I think it's very handy to be able to sail well when you need it. It's also important to be able to sail into your slip and set an anchor quickly without the motors help.
Hey...I resemble that remark. The truth is that I no longer race so I usually just adjust the sails and sail the luff by watching the tell tales and steering. The only time I'm doing "performance sailing" is when conditions are really bad or I'm trying to make a point without having to tack. Still I think it's very handy to be able to sail well when you need it. It's also important to be able to sail into your slip and set an anchor quickly without the motors help.
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Jim Wolfgram
two reasons for the downhaul.
First reason might be class rules for racing. There are lines on the Mast and boom, you can't hoist your sail beyond the black line on the top of the mast. The downhaul helps you tension the luff if you are close to the black line, and stay in compliance with the rule. The second reason is mechanics, it is easier to tension the lower half of the luff with a downhaul or cunningham. The drag on the slides or slugs really impeed your ability to tension the lower portion of the luff with the halyard. This is even true on my 320 with very clean lubed slugs. Yesterday, I needed to put in a bit of cunningham to get the crows feet out of the sail. This would have been impossible with the halyard, even with a 32 power winch. My system is slick enough that I can douse the sail, by releasing the halyard, (i.e., if fall all the way down and flakes itself on the dutchman). happy sailing.
First reason might be class rules for racing. There are lines on the Mast and boom, you can't hoist your sail beyond the black line on the top of the mast. The downhaul helps you tension the luff if you are close to the black line, and stay in compliance with the rule. The second reason is mechanics, it is easier to tension the lower half of the luff with a downhaul or cunningham. The drag on the slides or slugs really impeed your ability to tension the lower portion of the luff with the halyard. This is even true on my 320 with very clean lubed slugs. Yesterday, I needed to put in a bit of cunningham to get the crows feet out of the sail. This would have been impossible with the halyard, even with a 32 power winch. My system is slick enough that I can douse the sail, by releasing the halyard, (i.e., if fall all the way down and flakes itself on the dutchman). happy sailing.
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Don Guillette
Cunningham vs Downhaul
Mates: Oops, I'm getting in over my head here. I've never been on or sailed on a C22 and am not familiar with the rig. I was thinking of the rig on a sailing dingy and trying to apply that experience to the question Barry presented. I still think you can get away without the cunningham but we'll see What I should have done was first refer the question to a friend of mine named Skip Meisch who sails and races a C22. He has won more races in his boat than I can count. I have asked Skip to comment and hopefully we'll hear from him shortly.
Mates: Oops, I'm getting in over my head here. I've never been on or sailed on a C22 and am not familiar with the rig. I was thinking of the rig on a sailing dingy and trying to apply that experience to the question Barry presented. I still think you can get away without the cunningham but we'll see What I should have done was first refer the question to a friend of mine named Skip Meisch who sails and races a C22. He has won more races in his boat than I can count. I have asked Skip to comment and hopefully we'll hear from him shortly.
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Don Guillette
Cunningham vs Downhaul
Frank Ladd: Yup, I agree with you. A number of years back when I had a Catalina 25, I was sailing with another boat down the coast from Long Beach. It was a beautiful day but as the day wore on the wind started to pick up as it always does but I mean really pick up. We turned around to come back but got pushed into a spot along the coast off of Huntington Beach called the "flats". The waves rolling in meet the waves coming out and I hate that place. I was trying to get out to sea and in all the commotion the motor flooded and would not start. The next thing that happened was the wind went down to nothing. I had two choices - either anchor or sail out of there. Fortunately I was able to sail out. My friend motored out. The point is, you never know when your going to need your sailing skills. The time to find out your deficient is not when everything has just turned to crap!
Frank Ladd: Yup, I agree with you. A number of years back when I had a Catalina 25, I was sailing with another boat down the coast from Long Beach. It was a beautiful day but as the day wore on the wind started to pick up as it always does but I mean really pick up. We turned around to come back but got pushed into a spot along the coast off of Huntington Beach called the "flats". The waves rolling in meet the waves coming out and I hate that place. I was trying to get out to sea and in all the commotion the motor flooded and would not start. The next thing that happened was the wind went down to nothing. I had two choices - either anchor or sail out of there. Fortunately I was able to sail out. My friend motored out. The point is, you never know when your going to need your sailing skills. The time to find out your deficient is not when everything has just turned to crap!
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