*cry SALVAGE MY POCKET *cry

[SEADANCE]

WE JUST PURCHASED A 1983 IRWIN CITATION SAILBOAT AND I AM NERVOUS. THIS IS OUR THIRD SAILBOAT. OUR FIRST WAS A SIDEWINDER WHEN WE WERE DATING, WHEN WE MARRIED IT WAS A 27' RANKIN AND SOLD IT WHEN OUR DAUGHTER WAS BORN AND NOW THAT MY DAUGHTER IS 9 AND SON 3, WE NEEDED AND CRAVED A SAILBOAT.FIRST OF ALL I LOVE SAILING AND THE ROMANCE OF IT. I CLEANED THE BOAT INSIDE FOR SEVERAL HOURS YESTERDAY BECAUSE I WANTED MY HUSBAND TO FEEL A LITTLE BETTER ABOUT IT. IT HAS A LOT OF COSMETIC PROBLEMS, MOSTLY DRY ROT AROUND THE PORTHOLES. ALL OF THE PORTHOLES NEED REPLACING. WE ALSO FOUND OUT AFTER THE SALE THAT THE BILGE PUMP DOES NOT WORK, WE ARE HAVING A FRIEND LOOK AT THAT BUT I HAVE BIT OFF ALL OF MY NAILS WAITING. OUR OTHER PROBLEM IS GETTING IT INTO THE WATER THIS WEEKEND.THE OUTSIDE OF THE BOAT IS FRESHLY PAINTED AS IS THE BOTTOM AND HULL WORK AND FRESH PAINT ON IT. IT TURNS OUT IT WAS A SALVAGE BOAT...THE WORDS SALVAGE... HOW BAD IS THE WORD???

 

[larry w]

salvage

was it a Katrina victim? had it ever sunk? If it has ever sunk, everything will need replacing; engine, transmission, wiring, batteries, radio, everything. did you get a pre-purchase survey?

 

[AXEL]

More info?

What's the lenght of that boat?What type of engine does it have?Have you checked/started the engine yet?What condition are the sails in?Did you get a "steal" on it?Who did you buy from, private of dealer?I'm assuming you didn't get a survey.Don't worry about the bilge pump, a replacement is about $30. A lot of times they stop working because of a poor connection of bad fuse.Salvage implies that the boat was in some sort of trouble above and beyond a simple grounding but not necessarily a disaster. In these cases the persons who "rescue" the boat are entitle to fees equal to a partial value of the boat. It could mean that the previous owner did not have the cash to pay or didn't want to keep the boat. It could also mean the boat sustained some damage and the owners didn't want to invest in repairs. For piece of mind, I would suggest while the boat is out of the water, get a survey. They cost on average $300. A good survey will tell you exactly what condition the boat is in. If you didn't already do this, you should do it now. Better to spend some extra money now rather then get in trouble out on the water $$$.

 

[SEADANCE]

re

As it turns out it was a Katrina Victim but in New Orleans. When we asked the person we purchased it from whether it had been a salvage, his answer was "no" several times. The electrical inside the boat works beautifully and the engine started up, it is a new engine. Radio and navigational gearing was conveniently stolen while in the boatyard according to this gentleman. I only discovered it was a salvage boat after the paperwork was turned over on it and I was sifting thru it and discovered an insurance company paid out the original boat owner $20,000 a month and a half after Katrina and it has been passed on 3 times thru salvage companies since then. There is no information on this boat anywhere about sinking . The gentlman says it had some rain water in it from the portholes being damaged. The mast was removed once it was in the boat yard. The gentlman says the wire were clipped on it instead of removed properly...he claims he sailed it in there and had it lifted..I found out by demanding answers from the office that it had been towed there. So I am not even sure the mast is for the boat. The lines are present , I am sure they will need replacing somewhere.While I was cleaning yesterday I discovered a water line on any of the wood work about 4 inches up from the floor and when removing the mattresses there was debri..leaves and dirt and such along the seams of the trimwork and in any compartments say behind the cushions when I pulled them to air them out. The boat was no means a steal, we paid several thousand dollars for it.She is a beautiful boat, my husband is worried she is a mistake. He has wanted one for a very long time and probably got too excited about her. We have been looking for months and I say not give up on her just yet. I'd like to keep her but I am not sure if it is a mistake or if I am trying to make light of things and be suportive.

 

[tweitz]

salvage

Regardless of the condition, the seller did commit fraud by telling you it was not a salvage boat. If you do have more problems, you really should consider action against the seller.

 

[SEADANCE]

re

This seller conveniently was on his way back to England and asked that the cashiers check be made out to his company name...Is there a way to call the insurance company that paid out to the original boat owner and ask what the damages were and why it was paid out or do I have no legal right to even attempt at it?

 

[Rick D]

Relax...

...it's probably just buyer's remorse If the boat had really major damage, you'd probably know it. I suspect it did not. It may have been driven aground, or banged up some on the docks and pilings. See, the deal is with the insurance company, they have to figure how much repairs will be, then add the value of the boat in it's damaged condition and then compare that to the cost of settling the claim as a 'total loss'. Now, you have to consider also that the cost of repair after a disaster when all the repair folks are at a premium; maybe double normal? Anyhow, it would have been easy to 'total' that boat for maybe ten thousand dollars, which wouldn't have gone very far in the post-Katrina environment (I think... I wasn't there). It is also possible the insurance company settled out with the owner for a cash amount and they elected to sell it to a salvage company rather than repair it. In any event, if it was misrepresented to you and you have concerns about it, you may want to speak to an attorney. And, a surveyor, even now, might not be a bad idea. All this, please understand, is complete speculation on my part, but my gut tells me it isn't a big deal as you have described this. best of luck. Rick D.

 

[Nice N Easy]

Katrina Boat

I hate to say this, but I gave up on boats around here and bought one from up north for this very reason. I looked at several boats here that had been damaged in Katrina. The damage was fairly obvious on most, and not a single owner would say up front it was a Katrina boat. I looked at a Hunter 33 in Gulfport, that the owner specifically told me it was not a Katrina damaged boat. But a not too close inspection showed the keel cracked, and poorly patched on, you could see where they had painted one side and the paint was not an exact match, and there was salt corrosion on the stanchions on one side. If I were you, my next step would be an attorney. This crap isn't right, and people should not be able to get away with it. Following that, I would bite the bullet and have a survey done, to find out exactly what you have. It sounds as if the boat may be OK, and not need a lot of major repairs. But do contact an attorney.

 

[BobW]

By all means get a survey.....

In the worst case, you'll know whether it's worth pursuing legal action against the seller, and/or whether you want to keep the boat at all.In the best case, you'll have an idea of what needs to be done to get your dream ship-shape. Be SURE to be present when the survey is done, and PEPPER the surveyor with questions. Video/audio record the survey if he'll let you, so you can refer to it later.That the engine and electrical systems working is encouraging, but not conclusive. You know there was water in the boat, but not whether it was fresh or salt - you really do need a survey, to see where you stand.I don't know whether the insurance company is obliged to give you any information about the boat, but you should try - it won't hurt to give them a call and just inquire. If you end up with an attorney and a suit against the seller, you could probably subpoena any relevant documents.Cheer up! EVERY boat is a 'project boat' to some extent. Since the boat was on the hard, presumably you made sure the hull was intact, and the engine runs. There's two big checkmarks... you're on your way!Cheers,Bobs/v X SAIL R 8

 

[Stu Jackson]

It's your boat now

and it sounds like you like it.1. Get a survey, good advice, see what's up with it.2. Buy this book: Don Casey's This Old Boat. anything you need to repair it, it's in this book. Not only that, the first few chapters will answer your questions better than we can in this limited space.3. Please, tell us what size boat. If it's got an inboard engine, and you can sleep your family on it, also purchase Nigel Calder's Boatowner's Manual for Mechanical and Electrical Systems.For the price of the survey ($300) and these two books (less than $100) you'll have made one of the best less than $500 investments you can make in the boat.Once you find out what's up, and do some reading, you'll have enough information to make an informed decision. Leave the lawyers for another time. Your boat, your choice.

 

[Peter]

What "Salvage" means

is that the prior owner filed a claim with his insurance company for the damage. The insurance comany determined that the cost to repair the boat exceeded what its value would be after the repair. It's essentially the same as "totalling" a vehicle after an auto accident. It doesn't necessarily mean the boat is worthless. The insurance company detemines the "cost to repair" based on a professional doing the work at his professional billing rates. If you can do most of the work yourself, or use somebody whose rates are less than usual, you may have a good deal. It happens occasionally that the owner of the boat who makes the insurance claim and gets the insurance payoff may buy the boat back from the insurance company if he thinks he can repair it with his own "sweat equity".

 

[SEADANCE]

re

I would like to first say that You gentleman are making me feel a little calmer about this boat and I thank you.The sailboat is 34 feet long and has an inboard engine. It sleeps 6 and yes we had plans to sleep our family on it near the Chandelier and Ship Islands, do some over nights on it and sail to Tampa and Florida to visit family. We purchased this Saturday and my son and I have been on it every day since.For a Christmas present I purchased two books for my husband ,Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual and Steve Sleights The New complete Sailing Manual.They are both very vague about repairwork as I searched about the bilge pump.I too was afraid of a Katrina boat as one post mentioned. People were not being honest about any damage their boats sustained here along the coast.We started to look up north and alongside California but our biggest concern was getting it here. At this point I would have preferred to have spent the money to ship it or have someone sail it down.My biggest problem today was trying to find a surveyor, still looking. I also tried to track down the old insurance claims and policy with the numbers I had but I was told I had no right to the information and if my husband new I was pouring my soul out on the internet about this boat I am not sure of his reaction as it is still a very "delicate" matter as we are not sure whether it was a big mistake but I like this site and the people that are posting. I find this would be valuable information and there are not too many people that sail here its more of a motor boat type of world and I would like to learn as much as I can besides reading the few books we own and the occasional magazine on sailing. I like this boat and am overlooking cosmetics because those are repairable and we have the money saved to do it..I'm not ready to let her go just yet.*x Can you tell the difference in salwater vs. freshwater staining on wood? I see long lines where it has faded and its nowhere neal the windows.

 

[SEADANCE]

Sails and chemical toilet

The mainsail that belongs to this boat is sadly covering paint containers outside under the boat, and the sail looks bad, shredded. There are two sailbags inside the boat that I have not had a chance to take out but will bring them home tonight.I did not want to put them out on the ground in the boat yard with the rocks, sand dirt and shells and debri strown everywhere. I was thinking my front or back lawn and I remember how to clean it and fold it back up.The boat has a chemical toilet, my husband does not like this, would like a regular toilet in there and has a friend that can do the plumbing work has anyonne ran into a problem with this kind of change over?

 

[David10790]

Get the Survey First

Before you start thinking about major alterations, and putting in a marine head is one, get the survey done. In the worst case, you could be throwing good money after bad; and in the probable case, you will have other priorities, such as sails and rigging,which can easily run into the 000's.Putting in a marine head requires a hole in the bottom of the boat to pump water into the bowl, and a holding tank to hold water flushed out. If you plan to go off shore, you can also have another through-hull to pump out into the ocean. The toilet has to be affixed to the hull firmly, and the plumbing has to be high quality - every time you put a hole in the bottom of the boat, you are providng the ocean with a way in. A regular residential plumber may not have the experience for the job. As well, you will have to think about venting, which involves yet more holes.Given the magnitude of the other tasks in front of you, I would put this one down the list.Best of luck with the boar.

 

[dvideohd]

A good start....

The best present you could give the SO is your deep interest... It sure starts out as deep concern.... If you have a vetrean "old boat" owner friend or two - you know - the ones that work on their own boat - then perhaps invite them over for a BBQ - and to look at your new boat... Being fanatics (aren't we all..) they might go over it in really close detail... and give you a lot of information....Your questions might be:"what do I need to keep it in the marina?" - ie, the base operating cost kind of questions...Then..."what do I need to make day sail trips safely...?"... (take notes.... :>)You might do this to start you UP on your owning learning curve. There is so much to learn... A bit at a time is how you do it.... Jumping in FIRST OFF with a professional surveyor.... you might now know enought to aske the questions... For me, it was "give the boat a GOOD CLEANING:.. every hole, space, opening, behind the openings.. and especially the engine.. This is how you start to know enough to follow the surveyor around and ask questions... As the fellows said, then you might talk to a professional surveyor and see how much that would cost. Follow along, ask all the above questions and TAKE NOTES.. that you care to ask questions and pay attention GOES A LONG WAYs....*******I bought a Katrina Boat. Lots of damage. It was represented very fairly to me and was what I expected. I met and dealt with a lot of good people to get the H37C to the backyard... to start my own restoration - certainly a lot more than most would want to do... But then again, I just wanted to learn more.. ********** You find a lot of good materials and references out there....Magazines....Pratical SailorGood Old BoatDIYWeb sites... This and others....Books... Publishers --> Sheridan HouseAuthors --> Don Casey, Nigel Calder...Technolology... West Systems....etc....These are just a very few references...... That's why people hang out here - to trade info and ideas... (except those up north who are grinding their teeth till the ice breaks... :>)Getting really worried and concerned... that's the right place to start.. If only you could have seen my family when the 70" trailer with the boat pulled up in the Alley - and the crane offloaded... !!! Well... these are some of my suggestions... the advice to take a lot of pictures to start (digital) has also been good.... Have at it and have fun!!!--jerrySometim

 

[Nice N Easy]

May I Help

I would be more than happy to stop by, take a look and give you my opinions for whatever they are worth. For sure if you take my opinion, and a couple bucks to the 7/11 it will get you a cup of coffee. I make it through Gulfport nearly every weekend, and would be happy to take a look. I do have some boating experience, am not on my third sailboat, a Seidelman 37. As I stated in my previous post, I ended up buying this boat in New Jersey, because of so many dishonest owners here. Sailed it back home. But I am retired and have the time.I usually come through Gulfport on Fri. evening, and again on Sun. evening or Monday morning. Let me know if your interested.

 

[BobW]

Be sure to get the survey before getting it wet...

that probably goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Any competent surveyor will make you haul the boat to check the hull, prop shaft, cutless bearing, rudder, keel, through-hulls, etc. so you will save some money AND find out whether there is any work that MUST be done before putting it in the water.The good news: it's a nice boat! I looked at some of the listings on Yachtworld, and the design and layout are good - I like the galley from what I see. The boat also was built with a proper marine toilet in the head, so it was probably removed by a PO (previous owner). You'll want the surveyor to determine if that was because of some kind of problem - like a leaky holding tank. David is right about getting somebody who understands marine plumbing - it's different... not necessarily more complex, just different.Oh, another book that you will DEFINITELY get a LOT of use out of is from our very own Headmistress (no, she's not in charge of a boarding school ;D) titledGet Rid of Boat Odors by Peggie Halland it's available right on this site.Also, don't sweat the sails too much - there are usually used sails out there for most boats that will get you going.There's also likely to be an Irwin owners forum around somewhere, that would be a good resource.... not NEARLY as good as ours, but you get what I mean. Cheers,Bobs/v X SAIL R 8

 

[John24107]

STOP!!!!!!!!

Don't spend another dime until it is surveyed. I'm afraid that Stu was a little conservative on the cost of that, though. I recently spent between $15-$20 per foot which was the going rate as I searched the web. Still the best money you will spend. I saw you had another post for sail measurements. Don't buy sails, a single foot of line, even a new padlock for the companionway until the boat is surveyed.Good luck.

 

[higgs]

John is absolutely righter than anyone

That's my vote! We would all like to assuage your fears on this, but there is a possibility that you have been taken. You should invest another $500 to find out just where you actually do stand.

 

[William12213]

Survey first..then break out the tools!

A survey is a great (the best) first step if you are worried about the boat. It will let you know exactly what is wrong with it and weather it is safe to go in the water right now.Once you have that done and you decided that this is the boat you want...go for it and have fun. It is a sailboat not a rocket ship. Boats are easy to work on and you have a great bunch of people on this site that can help you through any problems that might arise. I have gone thru my 35 year old boat and learned a lot about her in the process. I didn't spend a fortune while doing it and I have a boat that has dramaticly increased in value and pride of ownership.If you are not handy or don't want the extra work sell it before you put any more into it and start looking for that next boat. Owning a boat should be fun not matter what you have. I like to tinker so my old boat has been great...my wifes fear now is that I will sell it since it is all redone to buy one I can work on! LOL