Cruising laminate sails heavier than the dacron ones?

jviss · Nov 8, 2017

My cruising laminate sails, mylar-Pentex-mylar, on my 38', are lighter than the cruising Dacron sails on my 36. I think it's generally true that for the same application laminates will be lighter.

Jackdaw · Nov 8, 2017

My cruising laminate sails, mylar-Pentex-mylar, on my 38', are lighter than the cruising Dacron sails on my 36. I think it's generally true that for the same application laminates will be lighter.

Unless the cruising laminates have a thin dacron taffeta installed on one or both sides. Sailmakers often do this to greatly increase the sails durability, but it adds some weight.

jssailem · Nov 8, 2017

But the query is “are the laminate sails better (worth the extra money) over the Dacron sail”.

Meriachee · Nov 8, 2017

It depends less on the weight than on the materials used and the weave. I'm currently staring at a "10" and a "15" weight of material, (from an unnamed supplier) and they are for all intents, the same weight. The "15" however, has about 30% more fibers, making the material inherently stronger.
The more important questions are things like material in the layers, fibers, uv, edging, glued or sewn, that type of thing. Some of the new ones have glued on dacron for sun protection. Comparing that to Dacron is like comparing fiberglass to plywood.

Meriachee · Nov 8, 2017

jssailem said:
But the query is “are the laminate sails better (worth the extra money) over the Dacron sail”.

The quote for a mainsail was about $700 more than Dacron. Not that much in the big picture, but that main is black fibers, and Martha Stewart would never allow a black fiber main next to a white fibre genny.

Sacrilege.

jssailem · Nov 8, 2017

So you are going to have to buy two sails? On my recent visit to Canada it was suggested that due to the US Dollar difference that we should buy a second boat.

Jackdaw · Nov 8, 2017

jssailem said:
But the query is “are the laminate sails better (worth the extra money) over the Dacron sail”.

First a 'sailmaker' who is recommending a pre-built sail from a major like NP will often be thinking more about their profit margin than performance differential.

But beyond that.

Don't get fixated on the weight of the sail built for your conditions. The big part will be the mid/long term performance. A laminated sail will hold its shape MUCH longer, while a dacron will put up with more abuse, UV, and flogging.

Broadseamed dacron sails will have a noticeable loss of performance in the first year. They might look OK longer, but the world is full of boats with blown out dacron sails that still look OK.

Flogging and chafe is the big enemy of laminated sails, which is why taffeta is so popular on cruising laminates. If you take care of them, they can easily last over 7 years with only small loss of shape.

At the end of the day; its all about how you sail, and whats important. No one answer to fit all.

Meriachee · Nov 8, 2017

John,
Please stop reminding me.

We can get a nice glued, full batten, loose foot with a deep shirt tail black main made in Canada solution, or a white main from FX that matches the existing 155 and might be of sewn laminate construction for about 20% more. That 20% disappears fast when we start talking about a matching black 155, and I'd get busted pretty quick on THAT purchase.

Meriachee · Nov 8, 2017

danstanford said:
Wanting to upgrade my 115 head sail for next year to hopefully gain a little speed for racing.

Back to the original question however, the question becomes more of how much time do you spend cruising, vs how much time do you spend racing? Further to Jackdaws point, if you're prepared for the increase in "care and feeding" that the laminates require then maybe there's an advantage. You certainly do have to be mindful of how you handle them, and you'll be handling them much more than racing with them.

Jackdaw · Nov 8, 2017

One other thing, noticed your boat.. On a boat with roller furling, a non-overlapping laminated headsail will last pretty much forever, unless you abuse it. The combination of furling and the sail not being pressed in the spreaders, dragged across the mast, or always in the stanchions really keeps it nice. Our current laminated 110% jib is 3 years old, raced several times weekly, and looks brand new.

chuckwayne · Nov 8, 2017

go with the laminate - Our cruising laminate main, even with the dacron taffeta, is much lighter than our original dacron main, and has held it's shape perfectly. I agree with Jackdaw, the loft is more interested in it's profit margin than in selling you a sail that will last longer and perform better.

Ted · Nov 8, 2017

danstanford said:
Wanting to upgrade my 115 head sail for next year to hopefully gain a little speed for racing.

Based on the fist sentence in your post, purchasing a laminate sail is a no brainer. A laminate sail will hold its racing shape much longer than a dacron sail. For additional durability, very lightweight dacron taffatas can be specified. Even with the taffeta, the laminate sail should be lighter than a dacron sail designed for the same wind range. Why such a small headsail? Do you sail in a predominantly windy area?

Jackdaw · Nov 8, 2017

Ted said:
. Why such a small headsail? Do you sail in a predominantly windy area?

The boat has a non-overlapping rig.

Rick D · Nov 8, 2017

Curiosity... what do you think of Dacron vs. laminate or other with respect to rating allowances? More specifically, common adjustments for cruising class rules. For example, my boat in SoCal, a Hunter 40.5, rating 102, would have a -6 for headsail and -6 for main; bringing my rating down to a 90. That sounds steep over a very good Dacron as my Quantums were.

uncledom · Nov 9, 2017

This is what my sails are made from, Paneled Tri-Radial Pentex/Technora with Tedlar UV cover, they work awesome and are definitely lighter than my original Dacrons. The performance is incredible compared to the original Dacrons which stretch further each time you try to flatten the sail in high winds. I don't think my PRHF rating included sail material, just dimensions.

uncledom · Nov 9, 2017

Dan, the Tedlar UV cover is a clear laminate. You need to be told which side its on or feel for it with your hand when the sail is new. Of course the sail maker needs to know which way your furler turns when furling.

Jackdaw · Nov 9, 2017

Rick D said:
Curiosity... what do you think of Dacron vs. laminate or other with respect to rating allowances? More specifically, common adjustments for cruising class rules. For example, my boat in SoCal, a Hunter 40.5, rating 102, would have a -6 for headsail and -6 for main; bringing my rating down to a 90. That sounds steep over a very good Dacron as my Quantums were.

Yes some PHRF cruising fleets do this. The numbers have to be a bit of a SWAG, and also (I'm sure) include the non-sail related effects of a person likely to race laminated sails in a cruising class. Meaning that person is likely to be better, sail better, and while it should not, that will effect the rating.

Jackdaw · Nov 9, 2017

danstanford said:
Thanks for your input everybody, I am soaking it up and feeling more comfortable as we go. The Cruising Laminate sail is quoted in CDX7 Polyester w taffeta and the conventional laminate in GPL 05 Carbon Scrim. Any thoughts on these in terms of performance and durability? I do take good care of my sails and prevent flogging as much as is possible.
Second piece is the inclusion of a UV cover. For our racing the Guys would love something else to do, but my bride loves the convenience of furling and forgetting so I need a real boost in performance to risk making her enjoy things less!
Thanks again, Dan

Those two materials you list are likely the name the sailmaker has given to some standard Challange/Bainbridge/DP/etc laminate. I can tell you that a Polyester (or better yet Pentex) thread laminate will not be nearly as stretch resistant as carbon, but will be MUCH more resistant to wear and tear, and breakdown from flexing. Its a good compromise for the non-super-hardcore.