Cruiser size
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Ed, I didn't read any post that claimed off shore passage experience. Most posts were references to others who have published first hand accounts of off shore passages and the boats they sailed. The things that were good and the things that were not so good. An account worth reading is By Tim and Pauline Carr and their boat Curlew. They lived on South Georgia Island in the south atlantic.
I have. My longest passage was from New Zealand to Hawaii direct and that took one month and we've done a few others that took more than two weeks.
--Tom.
Even the Pardays recognize that there might be some merit in size; otherwise the would still be sailing the 24' boat. When the First Mate and me were young and skinny we would lounge on an 20' sloop now we require something larger. We are also kind of social and like to invite friends and family to sail with us. That would not be possible in a boat designed for two. Comparing a boat designed for ocean travel and a production boat designed for coastal cruising is like comparing apples and oranges. Size may be one of the minor design considerations.
reality
I was in St. Lucia three years ago when the ARC fleet arrived. There were certainly boats who had employed professional crew for the crossing, but I don't remember seeing any boats destined for the charter trade. Indeed, most boats going into charter in that area these days are catamarans, and the great majority of ARC boats were monohulls. And they were not the sort of monohulls you'd ever see in charter; they were boats festooned with windvanes and solar panels and SSB antennae and wind turbines, et cetera.
When is the last time you saw a charter boat with a life raft?
The growing host of virtual cruisers on sites such as this claim to be inspired by the Pardees: they claim not to need an engine, or a head, or more than a gallon of water a day. But the reality out there is that people who are actually crossing oceans are doing it in bigger and bigger boats all the time. Much of this is because the technology now exists where a shorthanded crew--especially a cruising couple--can manage a boat longer than 12 meters. Yes, and the digital cruisers banging out blogs swear that you shouldn't rely on technology; they seem to forget that a boat, even a simple birchbark canoe, is a technology.
Big boats are certainly expensive, and I have great admiration for those able to cruise on a restricted budget. I had two friends aboard last weekend--fellow teachers--who are preparing to cruise a Westsail 32 next year. Good for them. But I can assure you they were not only exhilarated by the speed of my 46 footer, but were impressed by how comfortable it is in a seaway, and how easy it is to tack, to gybe, to shorten sail and to deploy the chute.
Ross complains of how much weight something like a refrigerator adds to a boat, but in reality a refrigerator is a tiny proportion of a 15-ton vessel. And the fact that I carry enough water in my five built-in water tanks to be able to shower during a passage is unbelievably cool. I honestly don't want to spend that much time hanging out with a crew who have gone weeks without a shower. Especially not in a small boat.
Anyone who wants to emulate the Pardees and go the bucket-and-chuck-it route has my sincere blessing. But the reality out there amongst those who are actually cruising is that waterline is a good thing. A very good thing.
I was in St. Lucia three years ago when the ARC fleet arrived. There were certainly boats who had employed professional crew for the crossing, but I don't remember seeing any boats destined for the charter trade. Indeed, most boats going into charter in that area these days are catamarans, and the great majority of ARC boats were monohulls. And they were not the sort of monohulls you'd ever see in charter; they were boats festooned with windvanes and solar panels and SSB antennae and wind turbines, et cetera.
When is the last time you saw a charter boat with a life raft?
The growing host of virtual cruisers on sites such as this claim to be inspired by the Pardees: they claim not to need an engine, or a head, or more than a gallon of water a day. But the reality out there is that people who are actually crossing oceans are doing it in bigger and bigger boats all the time. Much of this is because the technology now exists where a shorthanded crew--especially a cruising couple--can manage a boat longer than 12 meters. Yes, and the digital cruisers banging out blogs swear that you shouldn't rely on technology; they seem to forget that a boat, even a simple birchbark canoe, is a technology.
Big boats are certainly expensive, and I have great admiration for those able to cruise on a restricted budget. I had two friends aboard last weekend--fellow teachers--who are preparing to cruise a Westsail 32 next year. Good for them. But I can assure you they were not only exhilarated by the speed of my 46 footer, but were impressed by how comfortable it is in a seaway, and how easy it is to tack, to gybe, to shorten sail and to deploy the chute.
Ross complains of how much weight something like a refrigerator adds to a boat, but in reality a refrigerator is a tiny proportion of a 15-ton vessel. And the fact that I carry enough water in my five built-in water tanks to be able to shower during a passage is unbelievably cool. I honestly don't want to spend that much time hanging out with a crew who have gone weeks without a shower. Especially not in a small boat.
Anyone who wants to emulate the Pardees and go the bucket-and-chuck-it route has my sincere blessing. But the reality out there amongst those who are actually cruising is that waterline is a good thing. A very good thing.
Amen, if I had the money I would turn tail on my refrigeratorless brothers and take 2 showers a day and leave the water running while I am not in there. And never have to learn to sail because I would hire a crew that knew how to sail and cook.
I'd be on a 50' catamaran and give a new meaning to the term 'decadent american'.
Actually I wouldn't want any crew. I am not a social person in the real world. I work in my shop by myself like the 'crazy inventor' that I am. I go to a really big church, been there 6 or 7 years now. I don't know one soul there. I have one friend, my wife has 0. We really are hermits.
I'd be on a 50' catamaran and give a new meaning to the term 'decadent american'.
Actually I wouldn't want any crew. I am not a social person in the real world. I work in my shop by myself like the 'crazy inventor' that I am. I go to a really big church, been there 6 or 7 years now. I don't know one soul there. I have one friend, my wife has 0. We really are hermits.
IIRC, all the boats participating in the ARC are required to have a liferaft, regardless of whether they will need one after participating or not. 
On the other end of the extremes is this :
http://www.aroundinten.com/
For those among us that believe that a shower a day is the only road to personal hygene I should like to recommend a wash rag and a steel helmit full of cold water.
http://www.aroundinten.com/
For those among us that believe that a shower a day is the only road to personal hygene I should like to recommend a wash rag and a steel helmit full of cold water.
My wife and I were surprised at how effective a sponge bath can be when one is short on water. Of course a shower is better but a swim with a light rinse uses a lot less water. MONEY!!!!!! It really does come down to dollars and cents. My 32' Pearson is a basic boat for a couple. we have refrigeration that we rarely use but not enough water. 2 X 17 gallon tanks. We usually carry drinking water separately. we have a hot water heater that we rarely use....right now it isn't connected to the engine and why use the heater at the dock??? But if we had the money we would definately go larger but probably 40' would be the max. We are thinking 36' as the max that we can handle. A Pacific Seacraft 37 would be awesome. A Tanyana 37 or a Hood 40 look good too. BUT dollars and cents. The Pearson is paid for to buy another boat we'd have to sell the house..which is possible. But dollars and cents. sailing broke and hopeing for good luck or with 100K in the bank??? Sailing a smaller boat with money to spend in port or anchoring out eating rice and fish???? Obviously with money all of these concerns disappear. Unfortuantely we will have to cruise on a budget or not cruise at all. So Bahamas on a 32' boat or no bahamas at all???? After 30 years of boat ownership I have learned that the purchase price of a boat is often just a small part of the cost of boat ownership. After 5 years of ownership we have paid more in dock fees ,insurance etc than we paid for our boat. So even though that extra 8' on a 40' boat feels good it costs $40/month more for a slip at a cheaper marina. $5/ft/mo is the going rate around Alabama but many marinas want more. $10/ft/mo is not rare and was the rate at the marina where we bought our boat. So is 8' worth an additional $840/year in slip fees????
LOL
I've decided not to shower today, just as an experiment. The forward water tank is down about 70 gallons, and I don't want to have to tap into the others at this point even though we plan to return to the marina tomorrow.
Well, there you have it: the one thing we didn't think of when outfitting this boat was a steel helmit. Or even a steel helmet.For those among us that believe that a shower a day is the only road to personal hygene I should like to recommend a wash rag and a steel helmit full of cold water.
I've decided not to shower today, just as an experiment. The forward water tank is down about 70 gallons, and I don't want to have to tap into the others at this point even though we plan to return to the marina tomorrow.
For the typical cruising couple who don't want to carry crew there is a maximum practical size. I've heard people stuck in anchorages begging for crew because they could not run their boats without. If you sail a boat that takes two able people to run and one of them gets hurt or goes over the hill you're in trouble. If you have a boat that requires complex systems to run and they go out in some remote spot you're in trouble. And, of course, being boat poor is sure to cut into cruising time and flexibility. In any event, I do not believe that there is single ideal size for a voyaging cruiser and I am sure that there is such a thing as too much waterline even for folks with infinite budgets. I think if one defines the problem well enough there is an best compromise. My default answer is for the ideal boat length for a voyaging couple of means is 36' for monohulls and 46 for multihulls... Subtract 5' for single handers. For typical designs of that length you can put six months stores and spares aboard and still have a boat that is seaworthy and sails decently. But, I think the real answer is it depends... So, my opinion as a cruiser who's really out there (take that as you may
) is somewhat in disagreement with your "reality". --Tom.
We need to define "Needs" and "wants". The Pardeys carry a dinghy with positive flotation for their life raft and water taxi. It has sail ability. They just this year bought hand held gps units and check them with a sextant.
That said , we need food ,water and shelter. We all like to have a little more than that basic discription of living. Most of the amenities that we take for granted didn't exist one hundred years ago on boat or in homes. I have an architects book and catalog of house plans published 1907. There is no mention of plumbing or electrical service in his plans nor is there a diagram for central heat . If you don't have plumbing then you don't need central heat. If there are no light bulbs you don't need electricity. Clothes washing machines had little gasoline engines or a treadmill for the family dog. With laundry so big a project, changing clothes everyday just didn't happen. All of those stone ware crocks that are collectors items today were necessities for food storage and preservation. Home canning took the place of food freezers and the ice box the place of refrigerators(or vise-versa).
That said , we need food ,water and shelter. We all like to have a little more than that basic discription of living. Most of the amenities that we take for granted didn't exist one hundred years ago on boat or in homes. I have an architects book and catalog of house plans published 1907. There is no mention of plumbing or electrical service in his plans nor is there a diagram for central heat . If you don't have plumbing then you don't need central heat. If there are no light bulbs you don't need electricity. Clothes washing machines had little gasoline engines or a treadmill for the family dog. With laundry so big a project, changing clothes everyday just didn't happen. All of those stone ware crocks that are collectors items today were necessities for food storage and preservation. Home canning took the place of food freezers and the ice box the place of refrigerators(or vise-versa).
Breaking wave height to LOA ratio
Alhard Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing states that breaking waves 55% of LOA taken head-on or close to that will start to endanger a good boat with a good pilot of pitchpoling and capsizing. Taken beam-on a breaking wave only has to be 35% of LOA to eventually capsize any boat.
So a 40' boat can probably handle 22' breaking waves, while the same pilot in a 28' boat can handle 15' breaking waves. A 55' boat can handle 30' breaking waves.
This can be used to justify a really big boat with power winches.
Alhard Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing states that breaking waves 55% of LOA taken head-on or close to that will start to endanger a good boat with a good pilot of pitchpoling and capsizing. Taken beam-on a breaking wave only has to be 35% of LOA to eventually capsize any boat.
So a 40' boat can probably handle 22' breaking waves, while the same pilot in a 28' boat can handle 15' breaking waves. A 55' boat can handle 30' breaking waves.
This can be used to justify a really big boat with power winches.
Following this thread it appears as though most of the thought has been given to a vessel while under way. Other than the obvious comfort and speed you get in a seaway from a larger, heavier boat, IMO, size isn't that important while moving from point A to B. I do a couple of 2 day trips every season. That means constant work, no shower, eating from my lap, etc. It's once I'm there and on the hook or in a slip the extra room and creature comforts come in to play, and I wouldn't trade them for anything. Of course size does matter. The size of our wallets
First I'd say that Cole is a little behind the study of boats in waves. LOA has absolutely nothing to do with capsizing, only pitch poling. The beam, hull design, and keel have to do with capsizing. We have a boat here with 32' LOA but only 5' of beam.Alhard Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing states that breaking waves 55% of LOA taken head-on or close to that will start to endanger a good boat with a good pilot of pitchpoling and capsizing. Taken beam-on a breaking wave only has to be 35% of LOA to eventually capsize any boat.
So a 40' boat can probably handle 22' breaking waves, while the same pilot in a 28' boat can handle 15' breaking waves. A 55' boat can handle 30' breaking waves.
This can be used to justify a really big boat with power winches.
Second, a good drogue designed to prevent pitch poling can make a 10' boat safe in large breaking seas and I feel it should be on anybody's boat doing bluewater sailing.
However, I do believe the bigger the better. More waterline usually equals more speed. More beam usually means more stable. More waterline usually means more it can carry, epseically water which is heavy.
Maybe it's my personality or my experience with single handling or my physical abilities, but I think 2 people can handle just about any boat with proper modifications. Bigger sails mean bigger winches (they don't have to be electric). All lines can be run to cockpit so no need to go on deck. Good below deck auto-pilots can serve as another crew member. Basically, mechanical advantage can make any boat workable.
I sail a 37' boat with no problems by myself and I could see myself moving up to a 55' if I had the money to purchase and maintain it.
Now, as to what size is best, well, definately no need for a 40'+ boat if you're just going to spend a few months in the Caribbean, but if you plan on sailing the world for years, then it sure would be nice to have a 40'+.
Ross if you want to talk about needs, you don't NEED a sailboat. Why spend that much money and time on a boat and then wash your butt out in a steel pot?
"Small?" Boat Warnings
The figures were based on the investigation of the '79 Fastnet which concluded that it was the height of breaking waves which caused the disaster, and on subsequent research by many. That may be dated, but boat length has got to be a huge factor when the ocean wants to hurt you.
You make an excellent point that a fitted drogue changes everything for anything small enough to be called a boat, and that every cruiser should have one is the take home message for this thread.
After you pitchpole, a monohull is capsized.
The figures were based on the investigation of the '79 Fastnet which concluded that it was the height of breaking waves which caused the disaster, and on subsequent research by many. That may be dated, but boat length has got to be a huge factor when the ocean wants to hurt you.
You make an excellent point that a fitted drogue changes everything for anything small enough to be called a boat, and that every cruiser should have one is the take home message for this thread.
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When I started to search for a boat that I hoped would take me to far away places with strange sounding names I read a lot of books.
Seaworthiness- The forgotten factor by C.J. Marchaj was high on my list and was read more than once and is still referred to. Cruising Sailboat Kenetics by Danny Greene N.A. was another that was prominant in my desision making. Larry and Lin Pardey were influencial in my quest, Hiscock was there lending his years of cruising, Hal Roth had his say in my learning. I knew that in many things I had one shot to get it as right as I was ever going to. I didn't rely on just one opinion or set of experiences. I watched flotsum at the beach, I learned how floating things respond to the waves, I built models and watched them founder and also watched them sail away never to be seen again. No one can live long enough to try all of the cruising boats that have been built, each one by a builder hoping to get the right combination of stability, carrying capacity, and sea kindliness to have a true winner. Lyle Hess has come close. So Also have Crealock, Bruce Bingham, C.W. Paine made their mark in cruising sailboat designs and their work left their marks on me.
So If you must pick a cruising sailboat, study the work of these people and learn that there are wonderful boats that are cherished by their owners, sought after by those who have learned of their work and unknown to those that follow the mass market.
Seaworthiness- The forgotten factor by C.J. Marchaj was high on my list and was read more than once and is still referred to. Cruising Sailboat Kenetics by Danny Greene N.A. was another that was prominant in my desision making. Larry and Lin Pardey were influencial in my quest, Hiscock was there lending his years of cruising, Hal Roth had his say in my learning. I knew that in many things I had one shot to get it as right as I was ever going to. I didn't rely on just one opinion or set of experiences. I watched flotsum at the beach, I learned how floating things respond to the waves, I built models and watched them founder and also watched them sail away never to be seen again. No one can live long enough to try all of the cruising boats that have been built, each one by a builder hoping to get the right combination of stability, carrying capacity, and sea kindliness to have a true winner. Lyle Hess has come close. So Also have Crealock, Bruce Bingham, C.W. Paine made their mark in cruising sailboat designs and their work left their marks on me.
So If you must pick a cruising sailboat, study the work of these people and learn that there are wonderful boats that are cherished by their owners, sought after by those who have learned of their work and unknown to those that follow the mass market.
Unfortunately, as Franklin has pointed out this is a bit dated... Using a Jordan Series Drogue, which was developed in response to the Fastnet disaster, much of the risk of pitchpoling or capsize, as well as problems with being beam on to breaking seas goes away. The tests done with the USCG and the testimonials and empirical data prove that it works. IMHO, any small sailboat going bluewater should have a JSD aboard—along with the bridle and proper chainplates for the bridle rigged to go.
Alhard Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing states that breaking waves 55% of LOA taken head-on or close to that will start to endanger a good boat with a good pilot of pitchpoling and capsizing. Taken beam-on a breaking wave only has to be 35% of LOA to eventually capsize any boat.
So a 40' boat can probably handle 22' breaking waves, while the same pilot in a 28' boat can handle 15' breaking waves. A 55' boat can handle 30' breaking waves.
This can be used to justify a really big boat with power winches.
Newly: I've only chartered once (Sunsail BVIs 2007), but yes, the boat had a life raft. I asked about it, and they said it was the law. It was stowed in a hard case in the aft lazarette.
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