CP-22 Mk II Fin Rudder

HERSH · Mar 18, 2014

I wonder why MK II only ?

Hersh

NewportNewsMike · Mar 19, 2014

They (Catalina Direct) seem to have a separate listing for the MK I Fin keel: http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm ... y-hdpe.cfm

They also have a MK II Wing model: http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm ... y-hdpe.cfm

Catalina Direct's pictures of the standard rudders in both their description of the MK I and MK II HDPE replacements look NOTHING like the rudder that came on my #1258:

Not sure if it is an apple-to-apple comparison, but many years ago the Tanzer 22 Class Association had a "replacement" rudder made for the T22 that was a similar deep, straight NACA foil design that replaced the T22 standard rudder that looked much like the rudder in CD's picture (as the "old" rudder), but with even a more aft-sweeping curve. Man, what a difference. It was like power steering and the new did point a little higher and did not allow the boat to lose "bite" and stall the rudder at high rudder angles. So, it IS possible to make a "better" rudder shape!

shnool · Mar 20, 2014

There is also a difference between wing and fin, because the fixed (non-kickup) rudder from a FIN would hang lower than the keel on the wing.

Just an observation..

PS: One of the reasons why One Design boats have strict guidelines about changing the shape of foils is, because it DOES matter. Certainly a better keel, and a better rudder can be designed... but you might also require a new rating if you race...

I keep my nose clean in OD for my Capri 25. Not that we have a terribly big OD class. I am not even sure there IS a OD class anymore for the Capri 22 is there?

HERSH · Mar 21, 2014

" If I start to win and they want to change my rating, I'll deal with that."

Most PHRF's will not change a number. It is too easy to leave them be. Numbers have remained the same for 10-20 years. I argued for 6+ months that the Catalina 25 with a tall mast should have a different # then the Catalina 25 standard rig. Can you believe the PHRF guy actually argued against me! His argument was "show me the data" expecting I couldn't. Well I did. I had a PHRF book which lists all the ratings by region. I tabulated the results and showed him that only one region had them both the same ... guess which one. It wasn't till I threatened to go to PHRF US that the committee looked at it.

We have had one boat go through 2 different owners and low and behold how much the new owners position improved, once he got the new boat. The Pearson 26 O.D. has a real "sweet number."

Hershey

sinnettc · Mar 21, 2014

What are the other boats in your club? I've tried to point my fin keel with the wavelength 24's and Santana 20's and can't do it. Especially if I've got the genoa up instead of the blade. My understanding is that wing keels don't point as well as fins so I doubt you can point there either. What I've found works better is to foot off a bit and catch them on the downwind run. Of course I only do the beer can races so I may be talking out my *ss.

NewportNewsMike · Mar 23, 2014

drewlamparello said:
..... The one that is on the boat now looks like a barn door, check out the photo below. Mike do you think it has a bigger appearance than yours?

The one in the photo is definitely bigger (front-to-back) than my rudder. And I have an opinion on why it is. For the wing keel, the designers made the rudder less tall (to be protected by the keel). And to maintain a similar area to the rudder on the fin keel, they had to add length fore-and-aft. Hence, the cat-boatish barn door. Remember, the boat needs a rudder of X square feet to perform.

drewlamparello said:
Does any one think the balanced rudder would have a tendency to stall when you are over powered?

My experience with the Tanzer 22 was when I changed rudders from a scimitar-like rudder (easy to stall) to a balanced one was that the balanced rudder was much harder to stall than the original rudder.

I have another opinion to share: I would really give a second thought to having a fixed-rudder hanging down a foot or more below the bottom of the keel. My concern may be more than yours because of where I sail: the Chesapeake Bay. Running aground here can happen a lot. Doing so on our mud bottom (no real rocks like Maine, for example) is generally not damaging, just a nuisance to extract yourself, particularly if you have hit with some speed and really buried the keel. I cannot imagine doing that with the rudder taking the impact. Not sure the pintles would not just rip out of the stern. My wife's Uncle would say "You have a lot of nice water here, but it is spread rather thin in spots."

There is another option for you at Catalina Direct. They have a new-style kick-up rudder that is deep that can be used safely with a winged keel.

HERSH · Mar 23, 2014

drewlamparello said:
Chris
My club has mostly Ensigns, with a Ideal 18, a Soling and a U20 thrown in to break it up. OK I understand the last 3 but the Ensigns, I really would have thought I'd be able to keep up with them. But I think you're right I simply need to not try and point so high and go for speed to avoid loosing way.

Its all fun either way.

We have a lot of Ensigns in our club. They point very well and you would think with their PHRF of 246 the Capri's (213) would be able to walk all over them. But ...

Hersh

dave_ren · Mar 24, 2014

The kick-up uni-foil rudder from Catalina Direct appears to be the Rudder Craft, Inc. (formerly Idasailor) rudder. I have no experience with it, but if you go to catalinaowners.com and search for "Idasailor" or "Rudder Craft", you get some pretty positive feedback. Of course, that's $300 more than the foil you asked about, but it might beat ripping the gudgeons off the transom, though...

shnool · Mar 26, 2014

Pointing isn't just a matter of foils... it's a symphony of settings for any particular boat. Certain designs hold well to point better than others.
IT's NOT WRONG to think that you might be able to greatly improve your wing keeled Capri 22... And there is merit in looking at the rudder foil as one potential easy fix. OH and burrying that longer foil in the mud will certainly snap the pintails.
Best writeup I've seen to date about "pointing ability" that makes sense for my stupid brain is here:
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/snkpoint.asp

I've taken this guys treatise on pointing ability to heart. What I've found? He's so 100% correct. Nothing less than everything affects one's ability to point.

Ok this maybe has not helped you... so here lemme TRY to help you...
* Check foil shape/size (what you are asking about here)... reduce cross section to comply with association minimums (in this case, just try to emulate a decent NACA foil)
* Make sure the bottom is smooth and FAIR..., this is bigger than above (yeah I know you wouldn't think)
* Your sail shape isn't just trim... the "condition and cut" matter.. if you have older sails, your point will suffer GREATLY This is as big a deal at the 2 before this
* TWIST... induced or REDUCED, matters to point... you want to "POWER UP" get moving, then let your below water foils work... then REDUCE twist to get point... this is a cycle.. They say the best sailors will sail a slow "zig zag" of foot, ease, speed, point, trim, foot, ease, speed, point... Don't ROW the boat... this should be subtle and if you get good at it, you can do it JUST with trim (no rudder at all).
* crew position - god I am the WORST with this... My fat keester is at the helm and digging the darned stern into the water like I'm carving a pumpkin. Get the crew forward, against the cabin, and reduce movement as much as possible. Tacks, should be orchestrated, but also any trimming should be don with minimal movement... this will KEEEP YOUR SPEED UP, so you can point...

Read through that guide, print it... share it with your crew... understand that POINT requires EVERYTHING be right and when everything is trimmed/setup/prepped correctly POINT gets better as fall out, and you're sailing a different boat. TRUST me I KNOW! NO my point isn't perfect, but my boat was SO bad in 2012, that 2013 was like sailing a different boat... and I addressed everything at once... so the feeling was completely different.

By the way, you want the easy fix? Sell your wing keel and get a fin (preferably with new sails). Sorry getting a wing keel to point well is a challenge on a good day. It requires speed, and lots of it, and you'll always have your head handed to you with the same boat with a fin. Good news... if you stay flatter... you can kill them downwind.

My Capri 25 is an air craft carrier wide... for a 25 footer... it's drag and shape make it point less than a J/24, but the foil shape I picked for my keel puts me at class minimum, so when we turn around, and I throw a masthead kite... I can go from dead last to first place. Everyone cringes when my kite goes up. So if you wanna WIN PHRF with that wing... GET good with the kite!

CP-22 Mk II Fin Rudder

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