Covid-19 Vaccination

Jan 11, 2014
11,421
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Dave I recognize you defend the vaccination of the US population.

Should we ask questions about this process, the popular reaction defines this as wrong.

The essence of scientific thinking is to ask critical questions.

The use of a specific term like “idiopathic-anaphylaxis” has a definition. If that definition is a medical statement then I would seek a medical groups definition.
Perhaps WebMD is a credible site to search for a definition.
But if your doctor calls it "idiopathic" anaphylaxis, it means cause for the reaction isn't known.
Depends on the dictionary. First, I said "idiopathic response" not idiopathic anaphylaxis. Anaphylaxis is an extreme allergic reaction and is easily treated with ephrinephrine and Benadryl.

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
idiopathic
adjective
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id·i·o·path·ic | \ ˌi-dē-ə-ˈpa-thik \
Definition of idiopathic

1: arising spontaneously or from an obscure or unknown cause : PRIMARYidiopathic epilepsy
2: peculiar to the individual
The second definition is the one I was using. Since the particular set of adverse effects of the vaccine vary among individuals, the responses are idiopathic, some get headaches, some nausea, and other symptoms. There are long lists of symptoms associated with the vaccine, mostly with a fairly small incidence rate. (Its late here on the right coast, or I would look up the link to the reported symptoms and incidence rates. ;) ) If the adverse effects were consistent or with a very narrow range that were of a higher frequency, then the adverse effects in any person would not be idiopathic, as the would be the same across large groups of people.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
21,099
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
I can accept these definitions and that there are a variety of individual reactions to this new form of therapy.

My question is why is there such variation of response? My non medical education leads me to question the experienced difference in the responses reported to this vaccination as compared to the experiences I have had to other vaccinations. Why do seemingly healthy individuals have such extreme responses when others shrug it off as nothing but a little sore arm, a minor inconvenience?

The news reported leaders appear to be selling the experience as one of no concern. The political leaders say even after receiving the vaccine you still need to be in lock down to protect your neighbors. Dr Fauci now says one mask is not enough you need to wear three.

Schools are still empty or meeting 1 day a week.

Are we in a state of mass hysteria? Where is the new normal?
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,421
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
My question is why is there such variation of response? My non medical education leads me to question the experienced difference in the responses reported to this vaccination as compared to the experiences I have had to other vaccinations. Why do seemingly healthy individuals have such extreme responses when others shrug it off as nothing but a little sore arm, a minor inconvenience?
Interesting question and I'm sure some researcher somewhere is asking that question. My crude guess is that while much of what it takes to be human is common across all people, there is enough variation between us due to genetics and environmental exposure to cause the variation. Why do some life-long smokers never have lung cancer and some do? Why are some people allergic to cats and others not? What state of health is the person in when they receive the vaccine?

The news reported leaders appear to be selling the experience as one of no concern. The political leaders say even after receiving the vaccine you still need to be in lock down to protect your neighbors. Dr Fauci now says one mask is not enough you need to wear three.
It appears that very few people experience the kind of reactions that MaineSail's wife had and even fewer have severe enough reactions requiring hospitalizations. As smart as we humans are about some things, as a group we are not very good at assessing risk. A few thousand adverse reactions seems like a lot, however, when compared to the tens of millions of vaccines given, the actual incident rate is pretty trivial, unless of course you happen to one who had an adverse reaction.

Back when I took my neuropsych courses the professor would always start the class with the warning that he was giving us the best information he had at the time, however, the research was moving rapidly and by the end of the semester a lot of the information would be outdated. And that is the case with COVID, while the epidemiologists are very knowledgeable about how viruses and diseases spread, there is much unknown when a new virus shows up. As a result information and recommendations evolve. That is the very nature of science, not everyone understands this and expect definitive answers that remain unchanged from scientists.

Regarding the mask and social distancing requirements continuing after getting the vaccine I think there are a couple of issues, one political and one medical. There seems to be some uncertainty about being able to spread the virus after getting the vaccine. We know the vaccine does a really good job at preventing death and serious illness from COVID, but the jury is still out on whether vaccinated people can spread the virus after being vaccinated. And, while the vaccines are highly effective, they are not 100% effective, thus so long as the virus is highly prevalent, there is a greater risk of contracting the virus and subsequently spreading it.

The political issue is one of enforcement. At this point in time, it is far easy to simply apply rules related to prevention to every one than to try and discriminate between those who have received the vaccine and those who didn't. And who is going to enforce the rules? Do you have to bring your vaccine card with you to the store? Show ID that the card belongs to you? And unlike a Drivers License the vaccine card would be pretty easy to counterfeit. Sometimes we just have to take one for the team, wearing masks and social distancing is what we have to do for the human team now. If we don't reach a sufficiently high number of vaccinated individuals I do believe that selective restrictions will be put in place, for example, some people will be denied employment because the vaccine is required to work in nursing homes, hospitals, etc. or because an employer determines that all employees must be vaccinated. Travel restrictions may be put in place based on vaccinations, those of us of a certain age remember our yellow vaccination cards that went with our passports (I still have mine!).

Schools are still empty or meeting 1 day a week.
Schools are all over the place, some fully remote, some hybrid, some normal. One very under reported issue with schools is the impact of COVID on the adults. The media and politicians are focused on the transmission of the virus in schools and that is an issue in the high schools and old poorly designed and maintained schools. A big issue is staffing. In addition to the usual absences staff have for various reasons, exposure to virus, whether infected or not, and the staff member has to quarantine for 2 weeks. It doesn't take many exposures to make the school short staffed. And staffing is much more than just teachers, there are bus drivers, kitchen workers, custodians, tech support, nurses, aides, clerical staff, and so on. This on top of an ongoing teacher shortage. I was recruited for 2 positions last fall, both of which I turned down.

Are we in a state of mass hysteria? Where is the new normal?
The good and competent political leaders have been trying to prevent mass hysteria. There is a big controversy in NY right now about how the death of nursing patients where initially reported. The number of reported deaths was accurate, however, if a patient moved from a nursing home to a hospital and died there it was counted as a hospital death, if the patient died in the nursing home it was counted as a nursing home death. First there is no incentive for the nursing home to take credit for its patients dying in the hospital, in fact the there is every incentive for the nursing home owners and administrators to keep the in facility death rate low, makes them look better. Second imagine the chaos that would ensue if loved ones panicked about death rates in the homes caring for their parents and family? In the early months of the pandemic in places like NY there was more than enough panic to go around, the leaders did not need to create more.

Normal is always evolving.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,074
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
"...My question is why is there such variation of response?..."

Because of the biologic bell curve. Most if not all biological systems follow the principle of a bell curve. In others words a small number of individual will have very little reaction, the majority will have some mild or moderate reaction, and a very few will have a severe reaction. At the root of it is our genetic diversity, which is a good thing. It is what has saved us many times from extinction.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,669
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
The number of reported deaths was accurate, however, if a patient moved from a nursing home to a hospital and died there it was counted as a hospital death, if the patient died in the nursing home it was counted as a nursing home death.
Or what the son of one of our neighbors who passed away is dealing with. He is suing multiple parties including the State of Maine. Why? His mother who was 87 called him on a Friday morning and said she was ready to be taken to hospice. She had lung cancer about 16 years ago and had been on oxygen ever since. She was at max and could no longer take the suffering and shortness of breath. She, and her son and daughter had discussed this in-depth before she made the call. She had been in her house alone for the last three years, (longest living resident in our neighborhood and was actually born in the house) unable to drive, walk etc. and her son & daughter would deliver food, schedule oxygen deliveries etc.. She enjoyed sitting on her porch watching the ocean and boats but was literally confined to her house and would waive when neighbors walked by. With the oxygen, she had been pretty self sufficient. Steve took her to hospice Friday, mid day, and other than her cancer related lung issues she was in fine health, no abnormal cough, fever NADA, nothing.

When hospice removed oxygen and comforted her with meds she survived for about 5 hours while her son and daughter were right there by her side. When he went to pick up the COD certificate the cause of death was listed as COVID 19. He argued with them and they refused to change it despite zero COVID 19 positive test results and zero COVID 19 symptoms (which was all documents on the intake forms). Because he was so angry, he paid to have three different COVID 19 tests done on her body and and then as autopsy.) He is so irate about the false COD he has filed multiple law suits to hopefully prevent this stuff in the future.

Take any of this data with a grain of salt.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,370
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Or what the son of one of our neighbors who passed away is dealing with. He is suing multiple parties including the State of Maine. Why? His mother who was 87 called him on a Friday morning and said she was ready to be taken to hospice. She had lung cancer about 16 years ago and had been on oxygen ever since. She was at max and could no longer take the suffering and shortness of breath. She, and her son and daughter had discussed this in-depth before she made the call. She had been in her house alone for the last three years, (longest living resident in our neighborhood and was actually born in the house) unable to drive, walk etc. and her son & daughter would deliver food, schedule oxygen deliveries etc.. She enjoyed sitting on her porch watching the ocean and boats but was literally confined to her house and would waive when neighbors walked by. With the oxygen, she had been pretty self sufficient. Steve took her to hospice Friday, mid day, and other than her cancer related lung issues she was in fine health, no abnormal cough, fever NADA, nothing.

When hospice removed oxygen and comforted her with meds she survived for about 5 hours while her son and daughter were right there by her side. When he went to pick up the COD certificate the cause of death was listed as COVID 19. He argued with them and they refused to change it despite zero COVID 19 positive test results and zero COVID 19 symptoms (which was all documents on the intake forms). Because he was so angry, he paid to have three different COVID 19 tests done on her body and and then as autopsy.) He is so irate about the false COD he has filed multiple law suits to hopefully prevent this stuff in the future.

Take any of this data with a grain of salt.
That is a heartbreaking story.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,370
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
"...My question is why is there such variation of response?..."

Because of the biologic bell curve. Most if not all biological systems follow the principle of a bell curve. In others words a small number of individual will have very little reaction, the majority will have some mild or moderate reaction, and a very few will have a severe reaction. At the root of it is our genetic diversity, which is a good thing. It is what has saved us many times from extinction.
I guess I'm on the lucky edge of that curve. I was raking leaves with my daughter on the Sat & Sun. after T-give. She went home Sunday evening and had moderate chills and feaver on Monday, test came back positive on Tuesday, I went and got tested Wednesday and it also came back positive. But my symptoms were just a stuffy head/nose. Had it not been for my daughter, I would have thought it was simply alergies from the leaves we raked on the weekend. It never got worse than a stuffy head but it lasted about two weeks.... and I slept 10 hours each night. :thumbup:
 
Feb 21, 2013
4,638
Hunter 46 Point Richmond, CA
Yahoo!! My wife and I just got the first Pfizer vaccination at the Mosconni Center in San Francisco (reason we were able to get it there as we used our boat marina county address since that county was taking 65+ vs. our home residence county was only taking 75+).......checked in early, no wait, no jab pain, waited 15 minutes to confirm no side effects and left. Next will drive 500 miles to camp in Palm Desert then drive back in 3 weeks for second vaccination and return to Palm Desert until winter ends. The vaccination center was extremely organized.
 
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Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
"In my peer-reviewed research, paid for the citizens of the United States of America through donations to IPAK, prior to the development of any COVID vaccines, I found that all but one of the proteins in the SARS-CoV-2 virus have what we call unsafe epitopes – right, which are parts of proteins that are capable of causing immune conditions. Autoimmune conditions, and immune responses against proteins in our own body. This is peer-reviewed research and I’ll be happy to provide the press with reference after this.

About a third of the proteins that might be targeted by autoimmune conditions by SARS-CoV-2 viral proteins, either through infection or injection, target the immune system. But from the start, it looks like this virus has evolved the ability to attack our immune system as part of its disease-causing capacity. This pathogenic priming I predicted in my study, which parts of the human body would likely be most affected by pathogenic priming, and now studies by medical physicians, by medical teams around the world are confirming my predictions."

This statement was made by Dr. James Lyons-Weiler a research scientist with a PhD in Ecology, Evolution and Conservation in Biology, and a postdoctoral in Computational Molecular Biology from Penn State University.

Knowing what I know about Crohns Desease and what I have seen first hand in reaction to an early childhood vaccine, this now makes a lot more sense. My next step is to work to understand pathogenic priming further and if these early childhood vaccines contain unsafe epitopes. This is describing a lot of things that I know nothing about. I'll also be very curious about what my GP doctor says, as he is one of the first medical doctors I've run into who does not buy into the traditional blames for Crohns.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,421
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
"In my peer-reviewed research, paid for the citizens of the United States of America through donations to IPAK, prior to the development of any COVID vaccines, I found that all but one of the proteins in the SARS-CoV-2 virus have what we call unsafe epitopes – right, which are parts of proteins that are capable of causing immune conditions. Autoimmune conditions, and immune responses against proteins in our own body. This is peer-reviewed research and I’ll be happy to provide the press with reference after this.

About a third of the proteins that might be targeted by autoimmune conditions by SARS-CoV-2 viral proteins, either through infection or injection, target the immune system. But from the start, it looks like this virus has evolved the ability to attack our immune system as part of its disease-causing capacity. This pathogenic priming I predicted in my study, which parts of the human body would likely be most affected by pathogenic priming, and now studies by medical physicians, by medical teams around the world are confirming my predictions."

This statement was made by Dr. James Lyons-Weiler a research scientist with a PhD in Ecology, Evolution and Conservation in Biology, and a postdoctoral in Computational Molecular Biology from Penn State University.

Knowing what I know about Crohns Desease and what I have seen first hand in reaction to an early childhood vaccine, this now makes a lot more sense. My next step is to work to understand pathogenic priming further and if these early childhood vaccines contain unsafe epitopes. This is describing a lot of things that I know nothing about. I'll also be very curious about what my GP doctor says, as he is one of the first medical doctors I've run into who does not buy into the traditional blames for Crohns.

 
Oct 26, 2010
1,904
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
"...About a third of the proteins that might be targeted by autoimmune conditions by SARS-CoV-2 viral proteins, either through infection or injection, target the immune system. But from the start, it looks like this virus has evolved the ability to attack our immune system as part of its disease-causing capacity. This pathogenic priming I predicted in my study, which parts of the human body would likely be most affected by pathogenic priming, and now studies by medical physicians, by medical teams around the world are confirming my predictions."
@Daveinet - Is this physician/researcher saying that the SARS-CoV-2 virus itself has these "unsafe epitopes" or the vaccine (or both). If its the former alone, then all the more reason to get the vaccine. Does the study include an estimate for the percentage of people that get the actual virus itself who suffer the autoimmune disorders and what type of disorders are predicted? If both the virus itself OR the vaccine lead to autoimmune disorders, does the study address the difference in incidence or severity of the disorders that are caused?

It is definately a risk vs reward decision, not only for the individual but for the population as a whole. Considering that we have had about 500,000 deaths in this country alone attributed to COVID-19 and the untold number that have been saved by heroic efforts and hospital resources it may still point to the imperative for vaccination. Although, I'm not sure the virus itself is a cause or a contributor if is person is in hospice and dies or is 80+ with severe underlying conditons - (see post above)? The other option is Herd Immunity through actual infection and if the complication/death reat holds true for that scenario are we willing to accept 1 million or maybe even 2 million or more deaths in this country? Who gets that short straw? Masks won't stop the spread, they just slow it down and level the curve enough for our medical care resources to keep from being overloaded. IMHO we are in a "war" with an discrimating enemy that preys mostly (but not exclusively) on the weak and those who can least fight off the infection. No war is won without taking risks.
 
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Feb 21, 2013
4,638
Hunter 46 Point Richmond, CA
............My question is why is there such variation of response? My non medical education leads me to question the experienced difference in the responses reported to this vaccination as compared to the experiences I have had to other vaccinations. Why do seemingly healthy individuals have such extreme responses when others shrug it off as nothing but a little sore arm, a minor inconvenience?
My wife and I fortunately did not have a sore arm or response to the vaccination. It was no different than my "first" flue shot I had recently.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
Well, I don't care much for the conspiracy aspect, but only the part that I mentioned has triggered a desire for more specific information. I gave the context of why I care, and suspicion does not lead to a conclusion, but rather more research.

In an earlier post you mentioned about GMO corn protein being modified to kill off a rootworm. This struck me as interesting as I react very strongly to corn based products, particularly corn syrups. The reaction is measure in minutes. Again more research is needed.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,421
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
In an earlier post you mentioned about GMO corn protein being modified to kill off a rootworm. This struck me as interesting as I react very strongly to corn based products, particularly corn syrups. The reaction is measure in minutes. Again more research is needed.
I don't recall making this statement. Must be someone else.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
research and posts all run together. I'm getting old. My organazation of thought isn't what it used to be.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,421
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
research and posts all run together. I'm getting old. My organazation of thought isn't what it used to be.
No harm, no foul.

It is completely human to search for answers and causes for unfortunate events, be they illnesses, accidents, or random events, when they befall us. The challenge in this search is to remain objective, an admittedly challenging task, and to not let our hopes and fears color or cloud our thinking.

In a story too long to relate here, my family has painfully suffered the consequences of letting emotions obscure facts and distort reasoning among otherwise intelligent people. I understand the pain it can cause, I understand how life shortening it can be. When I see pseudoscience and questionable cures, I push back.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
Interestingly my issues have been managed through alternative medicine, most of which was a diet change, which made a huge difference. My GI doc said, whatever you had before, you don't have it now. Its taken me a lot of years to really understand it and find information consitent with what I knew about how my body acted. I can choose to aggravate my condition and put myself right back where I was in short order. Either way, I have a compromised immune system, which makes me much more cautiuous about what I do to it. As such, I really don't know if I should get the vaccine or not. I got covid when this first hit. Took me more than two months to get over it. No fever, which I think was part of the problem. For shortness of breath, I was right at the threshold, meaning if I did anything, like walk around, I started breathing heavy. O2 got as low as 92% once. Many times it got down to 93%. My concern is much more for the long term affects, which there is NO information about. For the normal healthy immune system, the vaccine is likely harmless, but like so many other things for me, my immune system is not that great, which makes me a little more paranoid. J&J will soon release their vaccine which I've read works differently - whatever that means.
 
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Jan 1, 2006
7,074
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Daveinet, have you had the antibody test? It is not 100% accurate but it may help drive the decision. If you have antibodies for Covid you may not need the vaccine. Whatever the result I would repeat it at least once and then every 6 weeks or so, if positive.