Cost threshold for an engine replacement

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Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
I priced up a bunch of motor maintenance costs for parts and spares I need to buy using the Torresen web site. I need some pretty major items like a new exhaust manifold, alternator, exhaust part, heat exhaner upgrade kit, etc. My shopping list came to about three to four grand. Just pondering whether the cost and effort is worth it to end up with a 24 year old motor with a few new parts versus just replace the motor. Any thoughts out there on cost threshold and maybe work/aggravation threshold for replacement. I'd guess a new BETA 25 would run around 8K plus installation. so probably 12 to 15K as a guess.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
Fresh or Raw water cooled would be the big factor as Fresh can really last VS raw with the corrosion issues
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,704
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
How many hours on your old engine? Perhaps a used engine might be the solution.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Fresh or Raw water cooled would be the big factor as Fresh can really last VS raw with the corrosion issues
I rebuilt a 30 year old raw water cooled yanmar. I was adamant about adding a heat exchanger before I took it apart. I expected to see a lot of corrosion inside but what I found was a build up inside the water jacket. Everything is cast iron in this engine. I dn't know what other engines are made of. Everything was fine, just needed cleaning out. Now I am not concerned at all with this engine. The cost benefit just isn't there for a heat exchanger.
The best part of fresh water cooled is hot water.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
Hermit

Its and X factor in saltwater as i have seen plenty of otherwise perfect motors DIE from corosion issues
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
It may be a good time to have an engine survey.

I would guess you can find some of these parts as salvage or used to save some money. $4k sure beats $15k in my book, assuming that the engine has had proper care.
 

larryw

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Jun 9, 2004
395
Beneteau OC400 Long Beach, CA
The Universal 5411 is raw-water cooled, and they last for thousands of hours.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,982
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Spare parts

jibes,

As I recall you have an M25. A friend of mine recently purchased a used M25 with 1,037 hours on it on eBay - I don't know the cost, but all he had to replace was the front bearing case and add a few other minor things like a glow plug solenoid and an oil pressure sensor and he has it running. He bought it to replace an aging A4 in his 1974 Pearson 10M.

While I don't know his raw cost for sure, YOUR stated cost for "spare parts" for your engine seems to me to be WAY over the limit.

Here's why: Our new 3 inch HX was $300 in 2001, can't be too much more today.The exhaust riser from Catalina was $185 in 2003. I get alternators from our resource in Wisconsin, 100 A high output with plug & play harness connection for $160 including shipping. So how come that's way less than $1K for the really expensive parts?

So, without a detailed accounting, or maybe with one (!:snooty:!): How'd you ever "...get to about three to four grand...??? :eek:

It is unfortunate that you have already purchased these items, as it seems from your post. Next time you're shopping, give me a yell, first, and I'll try to guide you into finding some better priced resources for you. Torresen usually does have all the parts and they are great for those parts that are unique to Universal engines, but they aren't the only kid on the block when it comes to engine parts. For instance, Sen-Dure does the HXs, although I bought mine at a local Universal dealer here rather than buying it from afar (that was a long time ago, too, way before online shopping became so prevalent). Oberdorfer pumps and parts can be found at discount, whereas Sherwood pumps and parts never can be discounted. If I had a Sherwood raw water pump, I'd replace it with an Oberdorfer (which is what we do have).

The question is how many engine hours you have. Me: 2333. A friend, before he had to replace his M25XP with an M25XPA was well over 5555+. This friend is one of our mechanical gurus. He would keep anything running and be able to fix anything. He got tired of dealing with seals issues, and he knew he would keep this boat until they tore it out of his clenched fists, so replacement was a no brainer for him. His replacement story is in the Nov. 2009 Mainsheet magazine (unfortunately both horribly and heavily edited). We'll have the full story with color photos up on our Tech Notes Online very soon.

I'm guessing you have lotsa life left in your old 3 banger!;)

Most responses to the basic "Is it worth re-powering my boat?" usually ends up with: "Only if you intend to keep her for a long time." 'cuz you'll never get the $$ out of it if the boat sells soon afterward.

If the only reason you have to consider it is "...is worth it to end up with a 24 year old motor with a few new parts?" then engine hours, general condition, and how it's been treating you over your period of ownership (reliability), come into play.

One of our C34 skippers, with his new-to-him 1988 boat when he first bought it maybe five years ago, went through the same thought process, and mentioned the Beta, too. He thought about it some more, listened to our input, then shopped and purchased parts frugally, and still has his now trusty M25XP purring right along with almost 2,000 hours. This same skipper wrote this article on our C34 Tech wiki: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Rebuilding_the_M25-XP I don't know what that cost, but it sure had to be way less expensive than a replacement, right?

Our engine is now 22 years old. Still going strong. Just getting warmed up. You get the picture...;)

Knowing you, I'm sure your engine is in perfect condition and well maintained. The conclusion then becomes much clearer.
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Good inputs - thanks

I've searched around on the net but the Wisc. site seems to be about it for universal parts? If anyone knows others let me know as I would love some discounts. The exhaust manifold is the big ticket, at $1568.05 just for the part, add in gaskets, fittings, studs, and pressure cap and it is up to 1617.00
Motor only has 700 hours but that is after a rebuild done in year 8 by prior owner. I don't know the original hours but they were an elderly couple so I doubt it is more than 1500 hours total. I am more concerned about reliability than about whether to keep the boat or sell it. For now I intend to keep it indefinitely but could be persuaded to change my mind for the right boat and deal. I don't need bigger, and the boat is great, I would prefer shallower draft and maybe bluewater for trips to Bermuda and the Bahamas without going down the canals. The O'day 34 won the Marion to Bermuda race one year so it is a capable vessel on the ocean but certainly not a bluewater boat. I've done offshore work in her and she's been fine in 35 knots and 12 footers for several days.
The online source has replacement alternators listed as $441 for a 105A aftermarket ARCO and $605.55 for a Westerbeke 51A. OEM is a 51A Motorola. LAst survey I had said the output was only about 13.5A, I can probably get it rebuilt somewhere, I'll look around. New seems really outrageous. I don't use much power when I am at anchor, I like to sleep when the sun goes down and wake up when it comes up.
Believe it or not the online source has a 2" heat exchanger listed as $472.89 and the 3 inch plus the brackets and stuff for the conversion is $760 or $860 depending on which version you want. How outrageous is that. Seems like no competition is allowing them to gouge the market. Just a spare impeller for an oberdorfer is $49.28. An electric fuel pump is $260.70
So you can see the dilemma. As I add up all this stuff I start wondering if a new motor is a better deal.
Stu, The exhaust manifold is the unit that bolts to the head and holds your engine coolant. I had the alternator braket support bolt snap off in the casting. I drilled it out but then an easy out snapped off in the hole. I have it jury rigged but it is the kind of thing that eats your mind away wondering when the casting will crack and lose all the coolant. you'd never know it until thick smoke was coming up through the cabin. So I absolutely will be replacing that and the alternator. The rest is somewhat optional.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Hermit

Its and X factor in saltwater as i have seen plenty of otherwise perfect motors DIE from corosion issues
My boat has always been in salt water. What do you mean "Its and X factor"?

I believe you that corrosion can kill motors, I am just saying mine was neglected with salt water sitting in it for 10 years with no zinc. The whole thing was one giant ball of rust. But on the inside of the water jacket there was a minilla colored crust that formed on everything completely blocking most of the water flow. In the block I left a thin layer of that on parts that weren't to be mated to something else, like the new cylinder sleeve.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,982
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Spare Parts

jibs, you wrote: The online source has replacement alternators listed as $441 for a 105A aftermarket ARCO and $605.55 for a Westerbeke 51A. OEM is a 51A Motorola. LAst survey I had said the output was only about 13.5A, I can probably get it rebuilt somewhere, I'll look around. New seems really outrageous. I don't use much power when I am at anchor, I like to sleep when the sun goes down and wake up when it comes up.

NONSENSE. I can get you a 100A alternator with plug & play harness for $160. Read this: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Catalina_34_Electrical_System_Upgrade Cost is up from $120 to $160 with S&H. Main Sail's Leece Neville source was also much lower than those prices.

Our Wisconsin source is still alive and well, I talked to Harv last month and got a new alternator from him. Only a phone call away. This "Wisconsin site" is only an alternator resource, has NOTHING to do with Universal. The engine doesn't care where the alternator came from :).

I'm still not too sure about the whole new exhaust manifold. I understand the description of the occurrences, but not too sure about your need for replacement. If it's been holding so far, what can now go, or conversely, what can you do to hold it together for good?

I often say, "If it was my boat..." so I'm not quite sure about this one yet.

Your other "online sources" may need some more detail, because the inflated prices seem so high, or perhaps they really have gone up that much since my purchases and the dates I gave you in my last post.

Fuel pumps: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2515.15.html Agin, your sources are WAY over priced.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
Its sounds like its a combo manifold/heat exchanger

Blocks are sandcast and NOT all equal and just like some people never have galvinic issues others have alka seltzer boats that eat parts up :)

Atomic 4s used a much better alloy which is why so many are still around
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,982
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
More stuff

jibes, you also wrote: Stu, The exhaust manifold is the unit that bolts to the head and holds your engine coolant. I had the alternator braket support bolt snap off in the casting. I drilled it out but then an easy out snapped off in the hole. I have it jury rigged but it is the kind of thing that eats your mind away wondering when the casting will crack and lose all the coolant. you'd never know it until thick smoke was coming up through the cabin. So I absolutely will be replacing that and the alternator. The rest is somewhat optional.

If your old alternator wokrs, why replace it, yet? Depends on the cruising you do, of course, and what charging sources you have and/or use.

You mention casting. I'm pretty sure you're familiar with the alternator bracket upgrade, so I'm confused about the use of the word casting. Do you mean the manifold casting? OK, so if it broke off in there, it's sealed. If it's a bottom stud, then you shouldn't have any issues because it's in compression against the manifold. And there also is the possibility to have the manifold removed, the stud drilled out and another way to hold the bracket onto the side of the engine. There are four or six studs supporting the bracket, so if one of 6 is cut, I'd think you could lvie with it, OR fix it without a $1600 replacement. http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=M-25_Alternator_Mount_Conversion_Kit_"B/M_256891"
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,982
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Its sounds like its a combo manifold/heat exchanger
Tommy,

No, it's not, It's an M25 engine (if I'm correct, jibes didn't confirm it specifically, but that's what I remember).

The manifold he's talking about is the freshwater antifreeze coolant vessel. The HX is completely separate from it on this particular engine. If you look at the alternator bracket link I provided, you can see the diagram of the new bracket next to the manifold.
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Alternator bracket upgrade

OK Stu you've talked me into it. i have the bracket upgrade kit but haven't installed it yet. Maybe this morning is a good time to start, this will take the stress off the exhaust manifold bolt holding the alternator bracket to the manifold front end. Hopefully the studs will not need replacing, they come with the kit but with my luck I'd snap one off and then need a head removal to fix that. just assuming Murphy's law which is usually a good assumption.
Regarding your plug and play alternator/ harness source can you send me a PM with name, address so i can make contact. is it a web site i can check out ?
The motor runs fine otherwise, so a replacement isnt warranted on that basis, all these peripherals cost a fortune, if you built an engine by buying the parts it would be about $35K versus 8K for buying one already built. I assume you've installed the upgrade kit for the alternator bracket, any issues you remember? I saw the note about the hoses being a pain.
Today I get to winterize everything and then see what else I have time for. Off to Santa Barbara for two weeks after that. How's the weather out there this time of year?
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Stu - electrical question

A couple years ago the yard that was doing some work on my boat gave me a mini survey. One of the items they noted was the alternator output was low, should be 14.6 and was only 13.5 or somewhere in those ranges. After reading your C34 links it is noted that the original automotive alternator supplied with the M25 has a regulator that only outputs 13.5 or so if the batteries are already fully charged, in other words a sustaining charge level. It is sounding more to me like the yard was just getting a lower output that is actually normal and maybe telling me I had a problem when I don't? I haven't had any problem but have mostly been day sailing and using the on board charger to keep the batteries topped up at the dock. Should I just remove the alternator and have it checked at an auto store or from my description do you think it is likely OK? I doubt the yard removed it from the boat it sounded like they just use a voltmeter to check the output terminals.
 
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