"Cosmetic" Rub Rail Damage

[John Nantz]

Al, That toe rail looks absolutely totally gross. Are these toe rails still made? My guess is your marina has a clause in their rental agreement that exempts them from damage? I'd be curious what any 'lawyers' on this site might have to say about what to do next. If replacement toe rails are still available then during assembly I'd recommend using some anti-sieze compound on the stainless steel bolts, say, Lanocote or Never Seze.

 

[Rick Webb]

Slight, My Behind

Man I would have been HOT there should be no excuse for treating someone else’s boat this way. Accidents do happen but to push it off as slight and tell you to call your insurance company is inexcusable. A more correct response may have been "I'm sorry, here is the name of MY insurance company. Tell me what we need to do to make this right for you, sir” I have found it is very difficult to be upset with folks who own up to their errors and try to fix them. I have no tolerance for someone who try’s to push of the blame or responsibility onto someone else. After all what do you say to someone who says "I am a stupid son of a bitch for letting that happen and I will do everything I can to correct it for you.”?

 

[Steve Dion]

Your insurance will deal with their insurance!

Al:That is gross. Ask the yard guy if he would think this is cosmetic if it was on his forhead<g>. There is a company Taco Metals, that makes toe rail. I would just see what the insurance company say about it and go from there.

 

[Andy Falls]

Bad Deal

I almost responded "sue the ***", but I hate litigations, esp. around boats. If that is "slight" I would hate to see "pretty bad".Do you think the marina would be upset if your slip fee was SLIGHTLY late-like about two years!

 

[Jack]

Ouch!

That is some pretty nasty dock damage.As much as I hate to say it this points out a problem with Hunter Marine. With the constant design changes there is also a constant changing of ports, hatches, rub rails etc. and getting parts for older boats, that match, is pretty impossible at times. Catalina can to this day supply parts for their earlier boats if you want them. I think Hunter should be selecting vendors who have a good track record and should be able to suppply replacement parts for older boats.

 

[Steve Dion]

Jack, that is bogus!

Jack:Let us use your example of Catalina. I would like you go go look at the different years of a Catalina 30 (just as an example). Look at the hardware over a 15 year period and tell me if the windows, ports, winches etc are the same on a 1980, 1985, etc etc.Many of the Hunter mfg. have gone out of business (along with many of the boat builders). Most of the parts on the Hunters are replaceable/ repairable. The manufacturers have discountinued manufacturing their parts but they are still in business too. Hunter has always supplied diesel engines in their boats while Catalina has been on gas and diesels and with multiple manufacturers.Change means innovation(and we know that is not always for the best). Hunter and Catalina have been the number one and two manufacturers of sailboats for as long as I can remember. Obviously Hunter has done SOMETHING right. I will venture to say that Hunter will become the number one mfg of a single brand sailboat (remember Catalina has 3 brands) and hold that postition for many years to come based on their new mfg processes and models.

 

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

I'm prob'ly gonna stir up a hornet's nest, but...

You may have an insurance claim...but you don't have any claim against the yard. The yard didn't tied up the boat and set the fenders, you did. You didn't like the location, but you chose to leave it there anyway...assuming it would be hauled the next day, but you didn't check to find out whether it was...nor did check on the boat again. Unfortunately, no matter what the yard promised you, your boat didn't become their responsibility until they laid a hand on it the first time...till then, making sure she was safe was completely up to you. Whether you even have an insurance claim depends upon whether an exact match for your rubrail is still available. If it is, a section will prob'ly cost you less than your deductable. If it's not, your insurance--less your deductable, of course--should replace the entire rubrail.Either way, an expensive lesson.

 

[Jack]

Sorry but!

Sorry Steve but have you ever seen a Catalina parts cataloge? I have actual experience in purchasing parts for a vintage Catalina. I have never seen a Hunter parts cataloge. Is there is such a thing?Sure vendors go out of business but I think Hunter should make a concerted effort to support their older boats. I actually like the progressive design of the Hunter, however too many people have asked questions about sourcing parts on this site because the factory does not have the parts or information as to where to get the parts.

 

[Rick Webb]

Read It Again Peggy

The way I read it it sounds like the yard moved the boat on Tuesday.

 

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

I read it several times, Rick

Here's what Al said:"...asked if it would be Ok where it was and requested the manager take a look at it to make sure, He said he would do so and we left her. On Wednesday I received a phone calltelling me the boat had been pulled out on Tuesday. On Thursday I received another call from the yard manager telling me that there was a "slight chaffing" on the rub rail where it had rubbed against the metal portion of the dock."Yes, the boat was hauled on Tuesday, but how does a boat out of the water rub against the metal portion of a dock? The kind of damage to a rubrail shown in the photo can't be caused by just one wallop during haulout...waves, wind, wake had to repeatedly pound it against something to do that...which means it had to have happened during the 36-48 hours the boat was waiting to be hauled. No way the yard could have done it unless they moved the boat to another slip and left it there at least overnight, and there's nothing in Al's account to indicate that they did. They just couldn't haul it as soon as they--and he--thought they could, and the manager did call him as soon as he saw the damage. Why the delay in seeing the damage? It could have been hidden by the slings...the workers who set the boat were prob'ly looking at the bottom and where to set the stands, not at the rubrails...all kinds of REASONABLE reasons why it wasn't spotted until they went back to start work on it, which could easily have been another day or two. And the manager did call him as soon as they did see it.Bottom line is: Al tied up his own boat, apparently without adequate springlines to keep it off the dock (the weather may have changed), and then depended upon the yard manager to check on it and correct any deficiencies in the way he tied it up. It's unfortunate that his boat was damaged...but it's not the yard's fault.

 

[Steve Dion]

Okay Jack!

You may be correct here regarding older parts for their boats, but (repeat BUT) I doubt that you will find a port or hatch from a vendor that is no longer mfg. them either. I have really not seen many parts that owners cannot purchase any longer. Maybe not from Hunter, but they are available through secondary sources. I would be a great idea if Hunter would offer fiberglass molded parts for these boats. I think that I will suggest this to them. Obviously this may not be practical for part where they no longer have the molds.

 

[Rick Webb]

Guess We Should Ask Al

He says "removed on Tuesday" I read that to mean it was moved again on Tuesday but I guess it could mean removed from the water. Either way it seems to me that it was left in the care of the yard. If you left your car at a repair shop parked where you were asked to and handed them the keys Only to return finding that the gate had repeatedly swung open and smashed your fender whose insurance company would you be dealing with. Seems like an analogous circumstance to me. Al, your best bet may be to let your insurance company fight it out with the yard after they pay to fix your boat. Isn't that is what you pay them for after all?

 

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

Your analogy doesn't fit, darlin'...

Nothing on the dock swung to hit the boat, the boat banged against the dock. If he'd left a car parked on a hill without setting the brake and it slipped out of gear , rolled downhill and ran into something, whose fault would it be? ("Gosh, officer, that fire hydrant must have been doing at least 30 when it hit me!")Al didn't hand over the boat to the yard and let them park it...HE parked it. And he admittedly parked it in a location he wasn't happy with. He didn't have to leave it there, he could have brought the boat back at a time when the yard could haul it immediately. Inconvenient, maybe...but not as inconvenient as things seem to have turned out. I'm not trying to beat up Al, btw...stuff happens to best of us, no matter how careful we are. It happens because conditions change and we weren't paying enough attention...it happens because we didn't have enough experience to know how to prevent it...or a line parted...or a dozen other reasons--some of which may be our own fault, some of which may just be because we pissed off the gods...but none of which is somebody ELSE's fault, no matter how much we'd like for it to be. And no matter how much y'all would like for the damage to Al's rubrail to be the yard's fault, there's just no way it could be unless they tied up the boat. Sorry, Al...

 

[Rick Webb]

Here is the Difference in Semantics

Analogy aside, the chronology I read was in the Photo Forum Al made it more clear on his other post. Therein lies the difference between what Peggy and I read. Even so Al took due diligence to protect the boat, the yard apparently never checked on it as that sort of damage takes a while. The boat was under the care of the yard although the boilerplate on the contract will undoubtedly say they assume no liability. Still sounds to me as though the yard was negligent.

 

[Don Bodemann]

As a repair shop owner....

I own an auto repair shop and can see this through the eyes of the marina owner. Right now I'm wondering if Peggy also owns a repair shop or a marina? Despite that, I'm also a boat owner and a consumer and from my experience, the tied usually goes to the consumer. Looking at the jury's response on this post, Al would clearly be the winner and the yard would be held liable. Peggy, you and I may feel this is not fair and the last to touch the boat should be responsible, but I’ve seen too many times when us “experts” are supposed to be mind readers and will usually be held responsible unless gross negligence can be proven on the part of the consumer….just like trying to argue a speeding ticket…guilty until proven innocent!Just my cynical 2 cents Don Bodemann

 

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

Nope...don't own a shop of any kind...

In fact, don't own a company at all any more.Unfortunately, Don is prob'ly right...not because the yard actually has any liability, but because our "everything is somebody else's fault, so sue 'em" society has made it cheaper to settle than prove the absence of liability. Everything is somebody else's fault...

 

[Al Shaffer]

Here is a little clarfication on my post

To help clarify the sequence of events I listed them below. This may help you decide your verdict for this situation. Please read it all the way through, because the last part is the most important. Saturday one week before the haul out date I set up an exact date and time to have my boats hauled out with the yard managerSunday 11:30AM The day of the haul out, I confirmed the time with the manager again. He asked me how long it would take to get the boat to the yard. I replied 30 minutes. He then told me to take it over and they will be ready for it when I get there. I did as he advised. Around 12:00AM When I arrived the yard still had several (three or four) boats in front of mine. I tied the boat up where I was directed to by the yard crew. This dock was acceptable to me for a brief stop. I was lead to believe that she would be pulled before the end of the day. That made this dock location acceptable for me because I was going to be there. 1:00PM I returned and delivered our second boat (which is for sale by the way) to the crane area as advised by the manager.5:00PM the manager advised me that he was not able to pull my boats today and that he would handle it first thing Monday morning. I asked him if the boats would be alright at its present location and asked him to have a look and make sure. He advised that he would do so. I packed up and drove 100 miles back home. (This is why I could not return to check on her the next day).Wed. afternoon I received a call from the yard, telling me both boats had been pulled out and everything was ok.Thur afternoon I again received a call from the yard manager telling me the news of the damage, which was not hidden by the straps or anything else.Now for some more clarification, I am not mad at the world or the yard manager, nor am I pointing the finger at anyone in anger. Remember in my first post, I just wanted to know how hard or intensive the repair job would be? Being a police detective I have learned calmer heads prevail. I also look at situations in a methodical and logical way. I am sure everyone here knows it is not purely the facts that prove guilt but the way they are presented. Below I will list my argument for a case (even though I have no intentions of pursuing one) I just did this to vent a little and show my point of view. So here is the way I am looking at itI was told by a person in authority (has power over the yard, equipment, and scheduling) to have my boat at a certain location at a certain time in order to have a certain action preformed. This task was completed without question.I parked my boat at the exact dock I was told to by the yard manager. This task was completed without question.  I secured my boat to the dock that would surely pass the (Intelligent, Reasonable Person test) I placed protection in the form of bowline, stern line and later a spring line as well as several bumpers needed. There was no way to tie off on the opposite side to keep the boat away from the dock, nor would a reasonable person feel the need due to the short amount of time the boat was intended to be there as articulated by the yard manager.I voiced my concern about the location to the manager in a politically correct way and asked him to take a look and make sure it was safe and the way he wanted it. He answered that he would take a look and make sure it was ok.If I knew the boat was going to sit there in the water I would have waited until the next weekend to deliver it.I arrived at an appointment which the yard designated and they failed to provide a service at the time they designated. I docked the boat under the direction of and at a location and the yard instructed. The boat was secured to dockage equipment the yard owned and maintained on the yards property. The boat did not become (to my knowledge) untied nor did my lines or bumpers become faulty. I gave the boat keys to the yard manager and left the yard.Now for my argument if the boat would have been pulled out when it was scheduled the damage would not have occurred. The boat was in the control of the yard both by having the keys, and also when advising me he would make sure it was ok where it was. I understand this is not a perfect world, and people do not have absolute control over every situation. Nor am I upset with the yard or any of the workers. Peggie stated some very good points, even though she was a little harsh on me because I do know how to tie a boat up. I am also very knowledgeable of the legal system. If this case was taken to litigation I am confidant it would prove profitable for me. However that is not the intention of my post, nor do I wish to cast blame on anyone even if you perceived it that way. I was just looking for some suggestions and comments on the subject. All the posts that I have read have been very informative and are greatly appreciated. I plan on having a meeting with the yard manager the first of the year to hear his comments and discuss our options. The insurance is not a problem and yes it is a valid claim according to them. However what I would really like to get out of this is the yard to replace the rub rail and repair the damage. I would gladly assist and perform the work if they would provide the knowledge and supervision. That is all I am looking for. Peggie is right about one thing, this is a sue-em society and I do not wish to contribute to that rampage. I just wish more criminals thought like that!! LOL Thanks again for the posts and I will let you know the outcome.The bottom line is I do not care how it gets fixed, as long as it is done by spring!!! Al Shaffer

 

[Daniel Jonas]

Custody and Care

The respondents are missing the biggest point here. When you run a business that takes in the possessions of others for service or repair in most places, certainly California, you have a duty derived from custody to take care of the consumers property, The boat was tied to the repair facilities dock with their permission. Al said they owned the dock. That is all that would have to be proven in California, and I assume most other places.I do not say this to facilitate or suggest that something ought to be someone else's fault. Just that this is the fact. The boat was in the custody of the yard when it was tied to their dock with their permission. No different that delivering your car to a dealer for service and parking it where they told you to. Why do you think the dealers come out and look at the car before you leave...just to get the mileage? They know this issue better than anyone. The yard should have secured the boat to their satisfaction when they realized it was to sit for an extended period of time. They dropped the ball here, not Al. Probably was getting a little late on Friday and some yard guy had a hot date and you know how that can be, after all, it wasn't his boat and the guy did say he tied it off.Dan (S/V Feije)

 

[Don Bodemann]

Not that simple Dan

It's not that simple Dan. There is what is known as public domain. The parking lot at a dealership might be such a place. If it is not a secured lot, then it is public and the dealership will not be responsible for damage incurred from vandalism, floods, lightening, acts of God, etc…or something as a result of a crumby parking job or if the owner forgot to lock the car or didn’t set the e-brake, etc. In fact, the burden of proof will be on the vehicles owner to prove negligence and /or liability on the part of the dealership. I have worked in 5 dealerships in three different states and that is the way it is, and I’ll bet California is no exception. If the car is damaged while in the shop or in a “secured” lot, the situation is slightly different. Now, is the marina a public area? And I can hear the question “why should it matter”? “My” answer is it shouldn’t in this case, but in a court of law…. let’s not forget the OJ factor. The yard manager could say he walked over and looked at the boat as promised, and it appeared ok, but that he did not assume the responsibility for Al’s tie up job and /or some extraordinary wind or wave conditions, etc. The fact that they didn’t get to it when they said they would is immaterial, we all know yards can get behind when doing the winter haul outs. As a juror, I would want to know if it was possible for the boat to be secured at that slip in such a manor that it would not have been damaged? If not (as Al suggests), I would say the yard might be liable. If so, The yard is not responsible for Al’s failure to secure the boat adequately….”Left in their care” does not make them responsible for something beyond their control…like Al’s tie up job or unusual wave activity or vandalism, etcAl, I’ve read your second account and my opinion (for what it’s worth) is if I were the yard manager or owner, I would do everything it took to make you happy. I would have adequate insurance, and I would try very hard to get them to pay for the entire tab. If my insurance refused to pay, I would try to accommodate you in every way possible even to the extent of paying the entire tab (although I would try to have you participate if you acknowledged partial responsibility). Most important to me would be to keep you a happy customer.

 

[Daniel Jonas]

Not convinced

Don,I'll acknowledge that pretty much everything is not "that simple". But, I'm pretty sure you did not describe anything that corresponded to the situation that Al encountered. The dock was not a marina, but owned by the yard (Al indicated such). The boat was not vandalized, flooded, struck by lightening, although I suppose a rogue wave could be an act of God. But then again, we all know they happen, so maybe not. I'm pretty sure it does not have an emergency brake, and I suspect that locked or not, the yard had the keys. Al had a reasonable expectation that the boat was to be pulled that day, and that when turning it over to them that they would care for it with reasonable care.I do know that if I turned my vehicle over to my dealer, and it was hit by another car in their unsecured lot, that I would not be dealing with my insurance company or the insurance company of the car that hit mine. I would leave that for the dealer to sort out, and I suspect they would have my car in the autobody shop pronto to fix the problem.I still think this is simple. If Al's boat had been tied incorrectly and the damage had occurred before the yard closed for the day, then maybe that might mitigate their responsibility (but I'm not sure that would even be true, because once Al left it in their care the situation changes). But Al seems pretty sure that the boat was fine that day.Further, the yard did not pull the boat out of the water when they said they would. And I do appreciate that things stack up, but the yard choose the time for Al to arrive. He did not show up unannounced. Again, if their dock is not a safe place to allow boats to remain for whatever period is required then they have a duty to control accepting vessels until they can safely deal with them.I appreciate your comments. And we can all disagree about anything. But if I were Al, I'd make sure this insurance claim was paid from the appropriate source.I do know something about insurance, and I know that claims are considered when your insurability is evaluated. Both for availibility and cost. Why should Al suffer increased insurance cost in the future for something the yard did. If their insurance is at stake, over time they will have to think more clearly about operations or they may not make it.One other thing. Although it is difficult to tell anything from the picture, this does not look like dock damage to me. This looks like something hit it, and I suspect that occured after it was out of the water as the yard did not discuss the damage until a day after the boat was pulled. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd notice something like that on a boat just walking by.Dan (S/V Feije)