Correcting somebody

[Wanderer138]

Here's a thought

Those 30 to 34 ft Beneteaus that they bareboat charter in the Caribbean wouldn't be there unless the boats were up to a transatlantic passage.PeterH23 "Raven"

 

[Franklin]

Peter....you're nuts

Bareboat charters in the Caribbean don't go out that far so they don't need bluewater boats. Nobody would ever say a Benny 361 is a blue water boat.

 

[Lou 14643]

Franklin, I think what Peter meant ...

...was that they had to get there somehow. Likely a delivery crew either island hopping from Florida, or a more open ocean passage. Not saying they're up to serious weather, but still a bit more than coastal cruising.

 

[Ross]

I wonder hows much ocean you need to

cross before your boat qualifies as a "blue water Boat". I think that I would rather face thirty knots 200 miles off shore than ten miles off.

 

[Franklin]

Delivery

I thought I had read that some Bennys were made on the east coast. Maybe that's wrong. I had assumed that most that came from Europe where delivered on deck of another boat. I'm sure that many do cross the Atlantic because there are people like me (I plan on crossing the Atlantic in a coastal cruiser) who figure they can do it once. I do believe that many coastal cruisers are capable of crossing oceans with the right decisions made, but I don't think that says the boats are designed to cross oceans and to me, that's what a blue water boat is...one that is designed for it, not one that has done it.We are not talking about 10' seas and 30 knots of wind, we are talking 30'+ seas and 50+ knots of wind. The stuff that one would definately not take any boat out in if they knew it was coming. True Blue water sailing you don't know what's coming because you are out there longer then the weather can be forecasted. I'm not talking 200 miles offshore, I'm talking 600+. I'm talking you pulled up the 5 day weather forecast and all was good so you left but on the 6th day you find yourself bare polls, running with the wind, visability zero at night, wind raging so loud nobody can hear each other, waves pooping the cockpit, autopilot is useless, everybody is scared, you are at the helm and are wishing you had a sea anchor because you are cold, wet, hungry and tired but nobody else wants to take the wheel.BUT...you are right Peter, I did miss your point. Sorry.

 

[Ross]

Franklin, I guess that I wonder how you classify

a boat as ocean worthy. What do you consider as the minimum righting angle? Does overall length play an important role in your figures? When do you feel that a boat is no longer coasting and has started ocean passage making? Does crossing the gulf stream constitute ocean sailing? You express your feelings strongly but without showing a basis in objective definitions.

 

[David10790]

How a strong boat ran into trouble

The link below tells the tale of how a "deep water" 40 footer got knocked down twice, causing the crew to trigger their EPRB and get rescued by a Russian cargo ship in the area. As it happens Katrina Lewis works at my yacht club in Toronto. She has sailed that boat from N.S. to the Virgin Islands on three other occassions, and has 25 years of sailing experience, as do the others on board. The boat was still floating when they were rescued, and may be floating still. It would have taken a lot of work to make it sailable however, and the conditions were obviously extreme.The point is that the best boat can run into trouble in the right (or wrong) conditoins, and people have crossed the Atlantic in much smaller boats lots of times.So I don't think there is such a thing as a "blue water" boat. I think there are stronger and weaker boats, and better and not so good sailors, and all kinds of weather that can happen.One thing we do know, however. Modern fiberglass boats do not sink due to hull failures, nor do their rigs tend to fail short of a bad knock down, nor do their hull-deck seams come apart. Franklin, what are you worried about, exactly, that a "blue water" boat would give you that a modern production boat wouldn't?

 

[Mike]

Beneteau factory

Franklin, FYI Beneteau's from 49' and down are made in Marion, South Carolina and have been for several years now. There are more than a few Benny's of all sizes that are confidently being cruised around the world. I also like the way you described the difference between sailing coastal and ocean voyaging. David also makes a valid point in that even the sturdiest of boats, with the best of crews can still run into trouble. When I first started sailing I expressed concern over the sea worthiness of my 23 footer. A very experienced salt told me "she'll handle more than you ever will". Something that I've seen validated over the years. How many stories have you read where the crew has been rescued from harsh conditions and the boat found adrift later on?

 

[Ross]

The best and strongest boat won't keep

a fool safe and a properly rigged daysailer that can be closed up can be used by a skilled sailor to cross an ocean. Capt Bligh ably demonstrated what can be accomplished in an open boat on the ocean. I could not open the link David provided but as I recall from reading that account elsewhere, The crew suffered injuries that caused them to be short handed in a storm, were unable to shorten sail in a timely fashion and suffered significant damage to the sails and the rigging. When they finally called for rescue they lacked the human resources to jury rig the boat, had medical emergencies. I doubt however that they would have perished had rescue not happened. Storms always end and people are incredibly resilient. There would have been the continuing need for medical care for those injured and complications can't be ruled out.

 

[Franklin]

Ross

I look at blue water as more then 5 days travel from port to port where you can't get a weather forecast and duck into a safe harbor when needed.I look at a lot of things to determine a boat's strength such as where the chain plates attach, how strong the mast and spreaders look, the size of the standing rigging, how strong are the hatches, how many large hatches, the drainage capability of the cockpit. I look at a few things to determine a boat's handling of the waves: displacement per water line, ballast per displacement, length, width. A stabilization index in the 130's is pretty good. A capsize ration less then 2 is good.I look at a few things to determine if the designer had ocean crossing in mind: water tank size, fuel tank size, and securability of storage compartments.I look at sail area per displacement because I feel a fast boat is a safe boat and I do hate to run the engine.My ideal boat would have a stabilization index of 135+ and a capsize ratio of 1.97-. It would be a 42' that weighted 40,000 lbs and had a water line of 38' with a ballast of 15,000 lbs. It would also have 2,000 square feet of sail area under a cutter ketch rig. It would have an open transome. It would have a top of line auto-pilot, 300 gallons of water and 300 gallons of fuel. It would have the chain plates attached to the hull and no more then one wire per chain plate. It would have a keel stepped mast. It would have AC, Refreg, Desiel heater, 12 volt water heater, a 80 hp Yanmar, a wind generator, 500 watts of solar panels. It would have a nav station with GPS chart plotter, 48 mile Radar, wind, knot, and auto-pilot controls that are also viewed/controlled at the helm. It would have the capability to pump 10,000 gallons per hour from the bilge with an additional manual pump. It would have a fin keel but with a protected rudder.Oh yeah....and it would have a very large bulwagga anchor on one roller and a super max anchor on the other. The bulwagga would have all chain and the max would have 50' of chain and 300' of nylon rode. The 300' of chain would be pulled in by a windlass and then down a shaft to a compartment in the bilge.Now if only I could find one of these for $100,000 In the mean time, I'll stick with what I have (Hunter 376).

 

[Ross]

The cruising club of america would agree with you

on the characteristics of the hull. However you have ruled out some of the most capable cruising boats by your wish for all of that machinery and electrical capacity. There is a pump that can be muonted on the engine that looks more like a blower than a water pump that would meet your pumping requirement. When I rebuilt Bietzpadlin the cockpit was huge. By my calculation it would have held about 2 tons of water and it had one 3/4 inch drain port and starboard. I reducded the cockpit to a three foot square foot well with a pair of 2 inch drains and raised the companion hatch so that the sill is above the coamings. The boat does not depend on its electrics for being able to continue a voyage. Bietzpadlin is full keel with attached rudder. Several surveyors have told me that is would be a good choise for an ocean crossing.Oh, Bietzpadlin is 30 feet on deck and weighs about 5 tons.

 

[Tom]

Beat to Death

I crewed on a Benny this spring in gusty conditions it was about 35' long and new. I was surprised by how tender the boat behaved. this was lake sailing and the skipper had trouble controlling the boat. The rudder would come out of the water and we would spin around. This happened several times. We were racing and probably should have reduced some sail area. But the boat was sooo beamy. One crew fell across the cockpit and luckily he wasn't hurt. Down below there was a lot of open space and few handholds. This was a cove in a lake so there wasn't any significant wave action. I'd hate to be out in the ocean on this boat!!!! And as Ross mentioned coastal sailing is demanding. A boat that won't sail into the wind can get blown onto shore. Blue water sailing you have the luxury of searoom. Drop all sail and hunker down drifting downwind. But coastal you'd be on the beach. Anyway the benny seemed strong enough but with the beam and light displacement I'd be beat to death long before the boat sank. OTOH it was a fast boat and beautiful. My experience along the Gulf of Mexico is that there are far more days of too little wind than too much wind. Light and beamy means speed until the wind gets too strong. At sea maybe a good sea anchor and just wait out the gales. I was in one gale for a few days. Bg heavy motorsailer. Almost everyone on board was seasick and puked out. Some were doing well to get from the bunk to head and back. Being caught in that weather in a benny would be rough. This was in the Bahamas and we ended up hiding in the lee of an island for a day to let the worst of it pass. They saw the front coming but it took about 36 hours to get to the island.

 

[Mike]

Beat to death

Tom my wife and I did a delivery this fall on a Benny 343 in winds in the high teens to low twenties and it behaved pretty much as you described. I've never worked so hard to sail a boat and was exhausted by the end of the day. It is a tender boat that you have to begin to reef at apx 15kts of wind. The hull shape allows the rudder to lift easily in lumpy seas and as you found out she just rounds up quickly. I tried everything I know to trim her out without any luck. We had to reef her or pay the price. Yet on the return trip in 10-15 kts but fairly flat seas she sailed like a dream. In contrast I've had my Benny 361 out multiple times in 20 plus and 4-5 ft seas without a problem. I'd take her just about anywhere. Just a world of difference between the two boats. I can only believe it has to do with the hull shape and the 343's tendency to lift her rudder on wave tops.Mike