correct prop size

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Jan 13, 2013
3
Hunter 27 Cherubini Seattletown
looking to replace the 2 blade prop on a Catalina 30 with a 3 blade. The boat is an 1988, Universal diesel 25XP(23hp), 2:1 reduction, 1" shaft. The 2 blade is a 13RH12. There is about
1 1/4" from the blade tip to the hull. In one site I saw an engineer of sorts that determined a 13X10 3 blade would work well for the lesser horsepower diesel. Is there some of you folks that have done extensive cruising and determined the optimum 3 blade prop size for this combination?
 
Jan 13, 2013
3
Hunter 27 Cherubini Seattletown
Hunter sanitaion hose

Keep the hose size the same as it is now as these heads are notorious for plugging up simply because of that 1" hose. I know that it is easier and cheaper to run all 1" hose but the final operation will be a big negative. I would even think about getting that 1.5" hose closer to the head than 3' but if it has worked well for all this time then so be it---------Mikey
 

jrowan

.
Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
Not sure if you're answering your post or someone elses. But if you read good guides of advice from marine pros like in Practical Sailor, they almost always conclude that it is not worth the increased drag of the additional blade & angle resistance of a 3 blade prop, compared to the marginal improvement in torque you might gain. The 3 blade does offer better power in reverse, not so much in forward. Only if you can afford a folding prop is it a good investment on a sailboat. But some of those props cost thousands, & are questionable when they are priced to 25% of the boats value! Your 25 Xp engine was the most powerful model that Catalina used. Even the early 36 footers used them. Remember that after all you're sailing a yacht, not a power boat. The engine was really designed to get her out & back from the marina, not motor all day. I have an engine half the size of yours on my C 30 that does just fine in most instances, with a 2 blade prop. Adding the extra blade also increases resistance on the old trans & engine, reduces the efficiency of the engine by effecting the optimal RPM range that its designed to run at, etc. These are the reasons for why I never changed my 2 blader. At the end of the day its a waste of money. That one extra blade could also cost you a knot of speed under sail. Not worth it in my opinion.
 

Mikem

.
Dec 20, 2009
820
Hunter 466 Bremerton
One of the things Mikey has to contend with are the currents in Puget Sound. Places like the Tacoma Narrows, Rich Passage, and Admiralty Inlet see average daily currents of 2-4 knots with peak currents slightly above 7 (two ebbs and floods daily). Combine that with very light and variable summer winds you have challenging conditions for an underpowered sailboat. A C-30 two slips down from me has the 11 hp single cylinder 2 blade and with a clean bottom he is lucky to get 5kts. Of course that owner is retired so time is not so much an issue. Without an engine prop combination that can achieve the advertised hull speed of 6.7 kts Puget Sound can be tough on the underpowered sailboat.

And I think a rule of thumb for hull to tip clearance is 10% of the prop diameter so he certainly shouldn't go with a bigger diameter prop.

Check with the Catalina Association of Puget Sound, CAPS, they should be able to give you some advice as to what the best combination is.
 

1dandy

.
Jan 27, 2013
7
Catalina 30 Wiarton ON
This is roughly the same delema that i have with my atomic 4, 2 blade. It is almost imposible to back up from anything, anywhere, and if any breeze is blowing my reverse takes me into 360's. Will a three blade not help my situation?
 
Oct 29, 2012
346
Catalina 30 TRBS MkII Milwaukee
I'm very happy with my 3 blade for not only backing, but motor sailing and when the wind kicks up getting back in the marina.
Go to Catalina Direct, they have a couple listed for your boat.
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Guys,

I can say from personal experience with an atomic 4 diesel, "do not" upgrade to a 3 blade prop.

My 1980 C30 had the 5411, so at my 2 blade fixed prop, it was pushing around 5-6 HP at full throttle. I was always the last boat in bridge crossings, and with wind and strong currents in Florida, couldn't get out of my own way.

In 1993, I made my first trip to Key West (my iron jib was 13 years old by now). I remembered having to motor into the wind & 6 foot seas the last 25 miles. It took 15 hours & I hated it.

While there, having my scuba gear I went and picked up a 3 blade & replaced the orig. one. There was a big difference coming back and better powering thru wave & current.

The downside was that a year later my seals went. I re-powered with the 3M20A and the 3-blade prop. It was and still is better under motor & I really don't feel a measurable loss in speed under sail. Besides, it's not as much for speed having a sailboat, but rather the trip itself.

Every boater has different wants & ways of sailing, and all are fine. Fixed, folding, 2 or 3 blade props will work if you do your homework up front so as not to blow seals or trannys or blocks, or wallets.

On the upside, I replaced the seals on the 5411, sent it out for sandblasting & painting. A few new hoses & belts later, sold it at JSI's annual flea market for $2200.00. That was in 1995 & the guy is still running it today, albiet a 2-blade.

CR
 
Nov 18, 2012
183
Catalina 77 - 22 / 75 - 30 Lake Arthur, LA
I have an Atomic 4 with an Indigo 3 blade made especially for A4's and Catalina 30's. it has a smaller diameter than other 3 bladed props for this size boat, so all the negative issues are accounted for. I am very happy with my prop and have more control backing.
 
Jun 5, 2004
241
Catalina 30 MkII Foss Harbor Marina, Tacoma, WA
You might want to comsider the Extendo prop. They have one specifically designed for the C30 and with it you end up getting a 15" x 11 prop. i was at first concerned about the fact that its plastic...less so now...you touch anything hard with a brass prop your not only replacing it, but the shaft as well. Giving this some thought before my next haulout.

http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=2598
 
Jun 5, 2004
241
Catalina 30 MkII Foss Harbor Marina, Tacoma, WA
...as an added note. I'm in Puget Sound too. You need to work with the tides at places like the Tacoma Narrows. I'd never go against during max current, but I've hit just under 12knts (gps) going with it on the flood. I also have the M-25XP with the stock 2 blade...I get around 5.5-5.6knts at 2300rpm in calm conditions. Good luck.
 

jrowan

.
Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
Guys,

I can say from personal experience with an atomic 4 diesel, "do not" upgrade to a 3 blade prop.

My 1980 C30 had the 5411, so at my 2 blade fixed prop, it was pushing around 5-6 HP at full throttle. I was always the last boat in bridge crossings, and with wind and strong currents in Florida, couldn't get out of my own way.

In 1993, I made my first trip to Key West (my iron jib was 13 years old by now). I remembered having to motor into the wind & 6 foot seas the last 25 miles. It took 15 hours & I hated it.

While there, having my scuba gear I went and picked up a 3 blade & replaced the orig. one. There was a big difference coming back and better powering thru wave & current.

The downside was that a year later my seals went. I re-powered with the 3M20A and the 3-blade prop. It was and still is better under motor & I really don't feel a measurable loss in speed under sail. Besides, it's not as much for speed having a sailboat, but rather the trip itself.

Every boater has different wants & ways of sailing, and all are fine. Fixed, folding, 2 or 3 blade props will work if you do your homework up front so as not to blow seals or trannys or blocks, or wallets.

On the upside, I replaced the seals on the 5411, sent it out for sandblasting & painting. A few new hoses & belts later, sold it at JSI's annual flea market for $2200.00. That was in 1995 & the guy is still running it today, albiet a 2-blade.

CR

Thanks for reinforcing what I thought about potentially overloading a small diesel engine with a 3 blade prop Capt. Ron.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,783
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Thanks for reinforcing what I thought about potentially overloading a small diesel engine with a 3 blade prop Capt. Ron.
Uhm, not necessarily. We have a fixed three blade on our meager 21 hp M25 on our C34. Does just fine, and in fact is better than the factory supplied 2 blade. It's a 15x10 3 blade.
 

jrowan

.
Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
Well, I am of course referring to the 5411 engine tha Capt. Ron is elaborating on.
This is the reason why I never switched to a 3 blade prop. on my engine. But no one
seems to address the fact that many experts have documented that the speed you may gain under power is more then lost through additional drag under sail via the additional blade. If you have a SAIL boat it seems like the highest priority is to imrove effeciency under sail, not power. But damn you guys are being nit pickers, jeeez.
 

Bob S

.
Sep 27, 2007
1,774
Beneteau 393 New Bedford, MA
Mikey,
If you surf this site there is a lot of great advise.
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=112587
Mainesail did a review on a Campbell Sailor prop. I replaced my 2 blade stock prop with one in 2010. They recommended a 13 x 9 for my M25XP. The first year I couldn't get to max prop spead but I also had issues with a failing fuel pump. I wasn't sure if I was over propped or was having mechanical issues. The second season I again couldn't get over 2700 RPM with a clean bottom and everything running well. I just returned it to them to re-pitch. They recommended a 13 x 7 (I have a 90amp alternator which can rob me of 2-3 HP). Super people. They turned the prop around in 2 days and didn't charge me! They are very close to you too.

http://www.westbynorth.com/
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I would really suggest that you have the engineers at the company that makes/sells the prop you buy size it for you. Give them all the data and let them do it. Its part of their job and if they cannot shop elsewhere. At Flexofold you cannot tell them what you want, you HAVE to let them size it.

If its wrong (will not reach desired RPM or speed) or clearance is wrong, they will have to make it good. You tell them what you want, its now your problem if you were wrong.
 

Bob S

.
Sep 27, 2007
1,774
Beneteau 393 New Bedford, MA
They did recommend a 13 x 9 but had to re-pitch to a 13 x7. I am following their advise.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,675
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Not sure if you're answering your post or someone elses. But if you read good guides of advice from marine pros like in Practical Sailor, they almost always conclude that it is not worth the increased drag of the additional blade & angle resistance of a 3 blade prop, compared to the marginal improvement in torque you might gain. The 3 blade does offer better power in reverse, not so much in forward. Only if you can afford a folding prop is it a good investment on a sailboat. But some of those props cost thousands, & are questionable when they are priced to 25% of the boats value! Your 25 Xp engine was the most powerful model that Catalina used. Even the early 36 footers used them. Remember that after all you're sailing a yacht, not a power boat. The engine was really designed to get her out & back from the marina, not motor all day. I have an engine half the size of yours on my C 30 that does just fine in most instances, with a 2 blade prop. Adding the extra blade also increases resistance on the old trans & engine, reduces the efficiency of the engine by effecting the optimal RPM range that its designed to run at, etc. These are the reasons for why I never changed my 2 blader. At the end of the day its a waste of money. That one extra blade could also cost you a knot of speed under sail. Not worth it in my opinion.
Easy to say in Virginia... Not every locations is a "get you out an into the marina"... In Maine or Seattle with the tides, currents and fickle winds it is not unheard of to put 100-120 hours on the iron genny in a season. Anyone who says a three blade does not make a marked improvement, well, I want what they are smoking...;);)

On our own boats we have had four opportunities to physically compare two to three bladed props in the tides, currents and rivers of Maine. NO COMPARISON.....:)

We had a Cape Dory 27 the two blade prop was as useless as tits on a bull. Prop was sized correctly but still had very, very poor performance when needed. Switched to a three blade and could actually motor up a river against a tide. We could also back down on our anchor to set it. The three bladed prop made all the difference in the world.

We owned a Catalina 30 with Universal M3-20B. it had a two blade Martec. Again, in Maine, that prop was as useless at tits on a bull and vibrated like I had a jack hammer under the boat. She had less than what I would even consider "safe" powering ability with the Martec. I might as well have had a trolling motor pushing that 30 footer... Switched to a three blade Michigan Sailor and it was smooth as silk, had GOBS more power and the loss in sailing speed was barely noticeable. The pluses vastly outweighed riding in a vibrator and the lack of ability to move against a current when needed.

We owned a Catalina 36. It had the M-25 and the factory installed two blade. It SUCKED under power and we could barely make way against a tidal current. Would have been fine going into and out of a marina, but in Maine that is often not the case. Switched to a three blade and the boat was perfectly fine with the M-25 and, WOW, not under powered at all. Once again the three blade prop made a HUGE difference in powering performance and had minimal impact on sailing speeds..

We owned a brand new Catalina 310 and I was smart enough to order it from the factory with the three blade.;)

We now own a CS-36 and last season put on a brand new Flex-O-Fold two blade prop. Doh' what was I thinking......... IT SUCKED!!!!:doh::doh::doh: We lost nearly all our backing power, forward speed was ok in flat water but could not compete it in any current. It vibrated so badly my WIFE made us get rid of it.... Went back to the three bladed Campbell Sailor and the boat powers, backs and is as smooth as silk with ZERO vibration. Again the speed differences under sail are barely noticeable, except when ghosting in very light winds.....

I'll take the hit of a three blade in Maine anyday of the week. Course I've already tried the two blade route, FOUR TIMES...... Some never learn:doh:...Doh'''''';)
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,675
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Mikey,
If you surf this site there is a lot of great advise.
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=112587
Mainesail did a review on a Campbell Sailor prop. I replaced my 2 blade stock prop with one in 2010. They recommended a 13 x 9 for my M25XP. The first year I couldn't get to max prop spead but I also had issues with a failing fuel pump. I wasn't sure if I was over propped or was having mechanical issues. The second season I again couldn't get over 2700 RPM with a clean bottom and everything running well. I just returned it to them to re-pitch. They recommended a 13 x 7 (I have a 90amp alternator which can rob me of 2-3 HP). Super people. They turned the prop around in 2 days and didn't charge me! They are very close to you too.

http://www.westbynorth.com/

Bob,

The rest of that story is here:

Folding Prop Report (Flex-O-Fold)

Folding Prop GONE !

Long and short I switched to a two blade Flex-O-Fold and it was a NIGHTMARE and it cost me some pretty good money to boot$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

We are back with the Campbell Sailor and could not be happier.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,675
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Thanks for reinforcing what I thought about potentially overloading a small diesel engine with a 3 blade prop Capt. Ron.
The only way you "overload" an engine is with the wrong sized/pitched prop. This can and does happen with two blade props as well as three blade.

Any prop, regardless of blades, should allow the engine to turn max rated RPM at max throttle in smooth water with a clean bottom. If your motor can't attain max RPM then it is over loaded or over propped.

Universal/Westerbeke will deny warranty coverage if you are over-propped..
 

jrowan

.
Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
Well that's a lot of responses. Don't have all day. but I think you make a good point that you can spend a lot of money on replacement props, especially folding ones & find that it's a waste of time & money & doesn't always equal better performance. You have of course more experience with prop changes then I do. But I used to own an S 2 with the lil 8 horse Yanmar. THe P.O. installed a 3 blade & the engine could not even rev. over 2k before it started to blow black smoke from being overloaded. Replaced the 3 blade with a standard 2 blade Michigan prop & the engine rev'd to 3k + & the smoking went away.

While we all want more oomph with the limitations of a small diesel AUXILLARY engine,
there are always sacrifices & trade offs that have to be made. I still stand behind the quaint notion that sailboats are for sailing. Loosing a potential knot of speed under sail due to increased drag to me is not worth the tradeoff. But that's just me. Although there are a lot of experts at Practical Sailor who have tested a lot of props & tend to agree. My opinion is that if you want to go fast under power, buy a power boat. That's what those smoking gas hogs were designed for. Personally I can't wait to turn my noisy diesel off as soon as I'm out of the channel. Everyone here has had good opinions & advice.
Over & out.
 
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