If I buy a used hunter 41 or 410 equipped with a furling main, (most common on the used market) what kind of modifications would be necessary to use a full batten main on the mast? is it possible? Is there a parallel track, beside the furling opening, for full batten main to slide up on the Selden mast profile, can a Harken track with Batcar be retro fitted? I know a new main would have to be purchased and finding a boat with full batten would be ideal but... Any comment or suggestions would be appreciated.
Converting furling to full batten main
- Thread starter Claude Labrecque
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Don't know , but what are you saying ?
I don't know , but was curious to know why the change. Are you saying without a doubt a full batten sail is a better shaped sail, enough to forgo the ease of pulling in the main. I have full batts, but find it a pain to down the mainsail, I'd wish for a rollerfurling main like my jib. Guess I should install the lazy jacks.
I don't know , but was curious to know why the change. Are you saying without a doubt a full batten sail is a better shaped sail, enough to forgo the ease of pulling in the main. I have full batts, but find it a pain to down the mainsail, I'd wish for a rollerfurling main like my jib. Guess I should install the lazy jacks.
Ther is no extra track on the mast
I supose you could install one but it would be off to one side. Don't know what that would do for preformance but suspect it would effect the curve of the mast in a blow. Would an insurance company cover this kind of "abuse"? I don't have the foggyest. I never liked the main furling idea either. How can you reef those things and get a nice flat sail. And the luft is just not going to be taught even when fully unfurled on that wimpy shaft it gets rolled up on. And the whole sail supported at the very top and very bottom. Think of the stress on those bearings in a blow. I'm not impressed even if it is a labor saver. A really dumb idea if ever there was one.
I supose you could install one but it would be off to one side. Don't know what that would do for preformance but suspect it would effect the curve of the mast in a blow. Would an insurance company cover this kind of "abuse"? I don't have the foggyest. I never liked the main furling idea either. How can you reef those things and get a nice flat sail. And the luft is just not going to be taught even when fully unfurled on that wimpy shaft it gets rolled up on. And the whole sail supported at the very top and very bottom. Think of the stress on those bearings in a blow. I'm not impressed even if it is a labor saver. A really dumb idea if ever there was one.
Full Batten
Clay, I now have a hunter 35.5 with Full Batten and Dutchmen system. This set up give me great performances. Hunters with furling main below 40 foot are not as fast as the 35.5. I am thinking of upgrading in size to a 40 footer however most used Hunter in this size range have furling main. I would like a 40 foot Hunter with Full Batten main since for me, the performance is well above the convinience in my priorities.
Clay, I now have a hunter 35.5 with Full Batten and Dutchmen system. This set up give me great performances. Hunters with furling main below 40 foot are not as fast as the 35.5. I am thinking of upgrading in size to a 40 footer however most used Hunter in this size range have furling main. I would like a 40 foot Hunter with Full Batten main since for me, the performance is well above the convinience in my priorities.
Furling main on a Beneteau 331
Claude, I can't speak for the Hunter, but my B331 has a track for a batten sail on the port side. I've thought about buying one as a spare and installing a batcar as you suggest. I've heard of owners using it to race in light wind. Bill, in my experience, the efficiency I give up in light winds due to reduced sail size, I gain in increased efficiency of the loose footed main. In 10 knot winds, I can feel her leap forward when I ease the outhaul. Of course a loose footed batten main would also have this advantage. However, there is only one of those on the lake. I don't see any speed disadvantages at about 15 knot true winds as I reach 7.5 knot hull speed. More sail won't make her go any faster. I'm often reefing by then as I have too much sail. To reef, I ease up into the wind until the main begins to luff, ease the outhaul, tighten the inhaul, then final tension with the outhaul. With captain and 2 crew, we can do this during a tack and never miss a beat. We took an early tack in a race when the wind unexpectedly increase to 20 knots on the upwind leg, reefed the main by a third, came out flying with a well balanced boat. We flatten the main by tightening the outhaul and the mainsheet...just like on a regular main. I can roll it in a quarter, third, half or three quarters...depends on what the wind calls for. On my old Beneteau First 285, it about beat me to death to reef at the mast...or to drop the sail in 20 knot winds! As for the taunt luff, I haven't had a problem. The halyard tightens the luff. You are correct, the furling foil is supported at the top and bottom by bearings and -- I think -- along most of the mast by the mast itself as the foil flexs by design to contact the inside of the mast. Claude, I've sailed a number of boats from 23-45 ft with standard main -- from Missouri to the Great Lakes (Superior and Michigan) to BVI. Dragonfly is the only one I've sailed with a roller furling main. If I were to buy a new boat today, I don't know which I would order -- furling main or standard. They both have their place. If I liked everything else about the boat, I wouldn't think twice about purchasing one with furling main. Now, help me understand...why are you considering a Hunter? Why not a B393 or B40 or B411.... ;-) For what it's worth. Mark ;-)
Claude, I can't speak for the Hunter, but my B331 has a track for a batten sail on the port side. I've thought about buying one as a spare and installing a batcar as you suggest. I've heard of owners using it to race in light wind. Bill, in my experience, the efficiency I give up in light winds due to reduced sail size, I gain in increased efficiency of the loose footed main. In 10 knot winds, I can feel her leap forward when I ease the outhaul. Of course a loose footed batten main would also have this advantage. However, there is only one of those on the lake. I don't see any speed disadvantages at about 15 knot true winds as I reach 7.5 knot hull speed. More sail won't make her go any faster. I'm often reefing by then as I have too much sail. To reef, I ease up into the wind until the main begins to luff, ease the outhaul, tighten the inhaul, then final tension with the outhaul. With captain and 2 crew, we can do this during a tack and never miss a beat. We took an early tack in a race when the wind unexpectedly increase to 20 knots on the upwind leg, reefed the main by a third, came out flying with a well balanced boat. We flatten the main by tightening the outhaul and the mainsheet...just like on a regular main. I can roll it in a quarter, third, half or three quarters...depends on what the wind calls for. On my old Beneteau First 285, it about beat me to death to reef at the mast...or to drop the sail in 20 knot winds! As for the taunt luff, I haven't had a problem. The halyard tightens the luff. You are correct, the furling foil is supported at the top and bottom by bearings and -- I think -- along most of the mast by the mast itself as the foil flexs by design to contact the inside of the mast. Claude, I've sailed a number of boats from 23-45 ft with standard main -- from Missouri to the Great Lakes (Superior and Michigan) to BVI. Dragonfly is the only one I've sailed with a roller furling main. If I were to buy a new boat today, I don't know which I would order -- furling main or standard. They both have their place. If I liked everything else about the boat, I wouldn't think twice about purchasing one with furling main. Now, help me understand...why are you considering a Hunter? Why not a B393 or B40 or B411.... ;-) For what it's worth. Mark ;-)
Why a hunter!
Dragonfly, thanks for your input on this sensitive subject. It seems that most of those that have furling main can only see advantages and no inconvenient. Most of those with Full Batten all think that performance is better. To answer your question on why a Hunter, the 35.5 is my first sailboat and I love it, I think that I want to be loyal to a brand I am so satisfied with. It is very fast and very comfortable for our family of 3. On lake Champlain NY most of my friends have Beneteau as there is a dealer just at the border of Quebec and NY. 3 have 411 with furling sail. Not to offend you but these boats are not performance boats. Aside from one time when the wind was over 25 knots they have never been able to be ahead of us. Doont get me wrong, I think that Beneteau are very nice, excellent design, I like the color of the interior wood and their style but I think that Hunters, specifically with Full Batten main are more performance oriented. I would compare the Hunters as a mix between the Oceanis and the First serie from Beneteau. As I said previously, performance is higher on my priority list than convinience. I am leaving to go sailing for one of our last week end. The boat will be out of the water in 3 weeks...
Dragonfly, thanks for your input on this sensitive subject. It seems that most of those that have furling main can only see advantages and no inconvenient. Most of those with Full Batten all think that performance is better. To answer your question on why a Hunter, the 35.5 is my first sailboat and I love it, I think that I want to be loyal to a brand I am so satisfied with. It is very fast and very comfortable for our family of 3. On lake Champlain NY most of my friends have Beneteau as there is a dealer just at the border of Quebec and NY. 3 have 411 with furling sail. Not to offend you but these boats are not performance boats. Aside from one time when the wind was over 25 knots they have never been able to be ahead of us. Doont get me wrong, I think that Beneteau are very nice, excellent design, I like the color of the interior wood and their style but I think that Hunters, specifically with Full Batten main are more performance oriented. I would compare the Hunters as a mix between the Oceanis and the First serie from Beneteau. As I said previously, performance is higher on my priority list than convinience. I am leaving to go sailing for one of our last week end. The boat will be out of the water in 3 weeks...
Claude...
you need to look for a 40.5 Hunter Legend. Big sister to your 35.5, great performer, and more reasonably priced as well. I currently own a 35.5 like you, and the 40.5 is one of the few boats I'd move up in size for. I was comparing 40.5s and 410s when the 410 first hit the boat shows and I truely like the 40.5 better. Where's Rick Dinon when you need him ;D!?
you need to look for a 40.5 Hunter Legend. Big sister to your 35.5, great performer, and more reasonably priced as well. I currently own a 35.5 like you, and the 40.5 is one of the few boats I'd move up in size for. I was comparing 40.5s and 410s when the 410 first hit the boat shows and I truely like the 40.5 better. Where's Rick Dinon when you need him ;D!?
Keep looking
Roller furling masts are heavy, much heavier than a standard mast. Many furling masts have an outside track for hoisting a sail with sliders ... a storm trysail for instance. The external track is not as strong as a standard mast. Not an issue when the main is at full hoist since the head of the sail is close to the top of the track and the halyard can take some of the leech load. When reefed, it could get ugly. When the main is reefed, the leech loads are higher and the head of the sail is 5-6 feet down the mast. The halyard cannot share the load, all the loads are on the slides on the headboard. The mast was never designed for those loads. Many furling mains have no bearing at the top of the foil inside the mast. They rely on halyard tension to keep the luff straight and the outside of the halyard swivel from keeping the foil from bouncing around too much inside the mast. I would advise you to keep looking for a boat with a standard mast. The only proper way to change to a full batten sail is to change the mast. If you find a 410 owner with a standard mast, maybe you could offer to trade your furling mast for theirs. A boat with a furling mast will be slower than the same boat with a standard mast. The added area and better shape of a standard main is part of it. The lighter rig (mast) of a standard main boat would make it faster even if the furling main had the same area and shape as a standard sail. Saving weight aloft is not just for racers. It means the boat heels less when sailing, and the boat rolls less when under power in a beam sea. There is a reason that Carbon Fiber masts are an extra cost option and make boats rate faster. Weight aloft is the enemy of performance.
Roller furling masts are heavy, much heavier than a standard mast. Many furling masts have an outside track for hoisting a sail with sliders ... a storm trysail for instance. The external track is not as strong as a standard mast. Not an issue when the main is at full hoist since the head of the sail is close to the top of the track and the halyard can take some of the leech load. When reefed, it could get ugly. When the main is reefed, the leech loads are higher and the head of the sail is 5-6 feet down the mast. The halyard cannot share the load, all the loads are on the slides on the headboard. The mast was never designed for those loads. Many furling mains have no bearing at the top of the foil inside the mast. They rely on halyard tension to keep the luff straight and the outside of the halyard swivel from keeping the foil from bouncing around too much inside the mast. I would advise you to keep looking for a boat with a standard mast. The only proper way to change to a full batten sail is to change the mast. If you find a 410 owner with a standard mast, maybe you could offer to trade your furling mast for theirs. A boat with a furling mast will be slower than the same boat with a standard mast. The added area and better shape of a standard main is part of it. The lighter rig (mast) of a standard main boat would make it faster even if the furling main had the same area and shape as a standard sail. Saving weight aloft is not just for racers. It means the boat heels less when sailing, and the boat rolls less when under power in a beam sea. There is a reason that Carbon Fiber masts are an extra cost option and make boats rate faster. Weight aloft is the enemy of performance.
new batten mains for inmast furling
Someone and i am not sure who is now making a full batten main with vertical battens for inmast furling. You might want to look into them I have a Jeanneau DS40 and love the inmast furling - however it has taken a while to figure it out - but i single hand and love the ability to reefer at various points and when the storm passes pull out the full sail again - all from the cockpit and i do not have to go on deck - we do ocean and bay sailing in south fla chuck and soulmates
Someone and i am not sure who is now making a full batten main with vertical battens for inmast furling. You might want to look into them I have a Jeanneau DS40 and love the inmast furling - however it has taken a while to figure it out - but i single hand and love the ability to reefer at various points and when the storm passes pull out the full sail again - all from the cockpit and i do not have to go on deck - we do ocean and bay sailing in south fla chuck and soulmates
Hood makes one ...
Here's a link. The people that I've talked to that have used vertical battens seem to be happy with them ... after they got the system sorted out. Part of the problem is design. If the boat was designed around a hollow leech main and a furling mainsail, adding a roach will add to weather helm. If the boat was designed for a roached main and in-mast furling is added, the vertical battens allow the new system to keep the centre of effort closer to the design point.
Here's a link. The people that I've talked to that have used vertical battens seem to be happy with them ... after they got the system sorted out. Part of the problem is design. If the boat was designed around a hollow leech main and a furling mainsail, adding a roach will add to weather helm. If the boat was designed for a roached main and in-mast furling is added, the vertical battens allow the new system to keep the centre of effort closer to the design point.
I'm Here, Honeyman....
...I was down on the 40.5 doing some fall projects. What I'd do if I was in love with a boat with a furling main is buy a vertical batten main. I know two people who replaced their standard mains with them and they were enthusiastic about the performance gain. Pragmatically, the resaile would be hurt by a conversion to a conventional main and it would be the worst of both worlds. And, yes, I do love my Legend 40.5. Even tho she's now 12 years old, there are few boats I'd even consider as a replacement. They are weatherly, and fast with fresh sails. The cabinetry is nice and the seperate freezer/frige huge. The layout is contemporary and... she sails very well. The engines are large and she powers like a trawler. Besides, they are pretty, too. (But, who's boat isn't?) Rick D.
...I was down on the 40.5 doing some fall projects. What I'd do if I was in love with a boat with a furling main is buy a vertical batten main. I know two people who replaced their standard mains with them and they were enthusiastic about the performance gain. Pragmatically, the resaile would be hurt by a conversion to a conventional main and it would be the worst of both worlds. And, yes, I do love my Legend 40.5. Even tho she's now 12 years old, there are few boats I'd even consider as a replacement. They are weatherly, and fast with fresh sails. The cabinetry is nice and the seperate freezer/frige huge. The layout is contemporary and... she sails very well. The engines are large and she powers like a trawler. Besides, they are pretty, too. (But, who's boat isn't?) Rick D.
Vertical vs horizontal battens
A horizontal batten main will have a smooth curve from luft to leach. Just like an airplane wing. A vertical batten main will have a series of "cups" with the high spots being where the battens are and the sail fabric "sagging" between them. Yes in a 20 knot wind you will still get up to hull speed and if you live somewhere like that then go for it but Aug-Oct in Maryland we get a lot of downright challenging days with 2-4 kts all you see all day long. The 7 oz fabric in the main will hardly even set. A cupped main is not going to give the kind of sail shape that works for those conditions.
A horizontal batten main will have a smooth curve from luft to leach. Just like an airplane wing. A vertical batten main will have a series of "cups" with the high spots being where the battens are and the sail fabric "sagging" between them. Yes in a 20 knot wind you will still get up to hull speed and if you live somewhere like that then go for it but Aug-Oct in Maryland we get a lot of downright challenging days with 2-4 kts all you see all day long. The 7 oz fabric in the main will hardly even set. A cupped main is not going to give the kind of sail shape that works for those conditions.
40.5 the other solution
Honeymanm thanks for you suggestion. The 40.5 are great boats I must agree. I am also evaluating 2 other boats I will visit during the Annapolis boat show. A Beneteau 42S7 and a C&C 121 . Alan is the 40.5 you are talking about is advertised somewhere. contact me at : clabrecque@videotron.ca
Honeymanm thanks for you suggestion. The 40.5 are great boats I must agree. I am also evaluating 2 other boats I will visit during the Annapolis boat show. A Beneteau 42S7 and a C&C 121 . Alan is the 40.5 you are talking about is advertised somewhere. contact me at : clabrecque@videotron.ca
Hunter vs Beneteau
Hi Claude, No offense taken. We chartered a Catalina 38 and a friend chartered a Hunter 35.5 out of Bay Breeze, Traverse City, MI this sumer. We liked the looks of the 35.5. The Hunter sailed away from us in 5-10 knot true winds on the downwind run. The one morning we had 15 knot true on our tail, we were about even, the Cat 38 maybe a slight advantage. We left the 35.5 behind the day we had a reefed main and 20 knot on a close haul. Our friends were impressed enough to start looking -- they have 3 boys and sail a Hunter 29.5. Good luck in your search. Mark
Hi Claude, No offense taken. We chartered a Catalina 38 and a friend chartered a Hunter 35.5 out of Bay Breeze, Traverse City, MI this sumer. We liked the looks of the 35.5. The Hunter sailed away from us in 5-10 knot true winds on the downwind run. The one morning we had 15 knot true on our tail, we were about even, the Cat 38 maybe a slight advantage. We left the 35.5 behind the day we had a reefed main and 20 knot on a close haul. Our friends were impressed enough to start looking -- they have 3 boys and sail a Hunter 29.5. Good luck in your search. Mark
35.5
Mark, You might have read my last post where I say that during our trip to Annapolis we will check a First 42S7 and a C&C121, this might make our fresh water sailed 35.5 available...
Mark, You might have read my last post where I say that during our trip to Annapolis we will check a First 42S7 and a C&C121, this might make our fresh water sailed 35.5 available...
Vertical battens and cups and sags...
Vertical battens are off-topic, but I'm responding to a previous poster's comment about cupping and sagging. I've not seen those symptoms. The vertical batten main on our H41 set wonderfully in yesterday morning’s light 3-5 knot breeze in Annapolis, Maryland. A beautiful shape, very smooth, no cupping. Our boat is a 2005 H41 with the Hunter factory-supplied vertical batten in-mast furling main (a $3,000 option built by Doyle Sails). The boat sails extremely well with it--fast and points well. Our prior boat was a 1995 H37.5 with classic rig. A great boat.
Vertical battens are off-topic, but I'm responding to a previous poster's comment about cupping and sagging. I've not seen those symptoms. The vertical batten main on our H41 set wonderfully in yesterday morning’s light 3-5 knot breeze in Annapolis, Maryland. A beautiful shape, very smooth, no cupping. Our boat is a 2005 H41 with the Hunter factory-supplied vertical batten in-mast furling main (a $3,000 option built by Doyle Sails). The boat sails extremely well with it--fast and points well. Our prior boat was a 1995 H37.5 with classic rig. A great boat.
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