Continuing the electrical and charging upgrade IP 31

Oct 2, 2008
1,424
Island Packet 31 Brunswick, Ga
I have upgraded the solar charge controller and alternator. The solar charge controller is a midnight kid. The solar panels are two 180 watt in series. I realize there are some drawbacks to series but it seems to be working great and so I choose to leave it that way. One nice thing is it sits way back over and aft of the transom. And rarely picks shade except perhaps from a low lying sun forward of midships. The alternator is 140 amp from electro Max with the external Balmar smart regulator. While doing the upgrades I have used some cheap Walmart deep cycle marine flooded cell plate batteries. Since the boat is loaded so heavily aft and water line to the rear is sunk, especially when outboard engine and dinghy are loaded that I am going to move the batteries forward to the now empty holding tank locker just about 3 feet forward of the mast. Hopefully this movement of weight forward will level the boat. I am going to install two AGM batteries. For a total amp hour on the house Bank of 300 A hours.
The batteries are lifeline GPL 30 HT 150 amp hours.
I intend to run cables from the forward part of the battery to the rear old the battery compartments. There I will use a bus to make my connections with the house switch. That is also where I will connect the solar charger input and the alternator Belmar regulator.
My questions involved this connection
1. The run is 20 feet. The table will be marine grade. What gauge cable do I use? It is my understanding that the largest voltage drop consideration for the amperage draw will be for the starter. The engine is a three cylinder Yanmar 3GM30F, 27 hp.
2. What are the fuses and where do the fuses go
Thanks,
Keith
 

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Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
In order to properly gauge the wire, you will need to know the maximum amperage used by your starter motor. It can be done by measuring the current or by using Yanmar data if you can get it.

Also don't forget that wire length is both the supply and the ground combined.

Ken
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,665
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
It is not so much your starter as your alternator performance. Your starter draws huge loads but for short periods. They still like large cable and minimal voltage drop.

In order to "properly" wire remotely located batteries all voltage sensing for the regulators still needs to come directly off the battery terminals not a busbar 20' away.. This includes regulator RED/V-SENSE and regulator BLACK/NEG... If you have a battery monitor then the shunt and v-sense also needs to be located as close to the batt neg as possible otherwise the voltage readings will be incorrect and can skew your perspective... Battery chargers and solar may also have some voltage drop to contend with depending upon max current.

You paid good money for alternator charging performance so you want to ensure you are actually getting it!

You are going to want to go as big as you can with the "pipes".... 2GA wire at 20' (round trip or 10' each way) results in a voltage drop of about .4V at 120A.. or 14.0V at the batteries instead of 14.4V... (this is from your busbars and is ADDITIVE to the voltage drop between the busbars and the engine...!)

Of course these VD calcs do not account for any of your terminations, connections or buss bars so figure on approx a .5V drop or more on 2GA wire at 120A from the busbars.. This means the charging system you paid for will be painfully slow, and lack performance, unless you volt sense properly. Even if you volt sense properly you are still working the system harder than it should be for no good reason by trying to compensate for too much voltage drop..

If spending the money on AGM batteries it becomes critically important to charge them properly. This means battery temp sensors for charging sources including solar, proper voltages at the battery terminals and a properly wired bank. For this task 2/0 would be my minimum recommendation if the run is 20' round trip. Course I have no clue what you already have in place and that VD may already be .4V so it is going to be best to redesign this from the ground up.

Over-current protection is sized to protect the wire and goes within 7" of the battery positive terminal. With 2/0 wire you can easily fuse with 300A+...

Remotely located batteries can be done but they are rarely done correctly...
 
Oct 2, 2008
1,424
Island Packet 31 Brunswick, Ga
It is not so much your starter as your alternator performance. Your starter draws huge loads but for short periods. They still like large cable and minimal voltage drop. In order to "properly" wire remotely located batteries all voltage sensing for the regulators still needs to come directly off the battery terminals not a busbar 20' away.. This includes regulator RED/V-SENSE and regulator BLACK/NEG... If you have a battery monitor then the shunt and v-sense also needs to be located as close to the batt neg as possible otherwise the voltage readings will be incorrect and can skew your perspective... Battery chargers and solar may also have some voltage drop to contend with depending upon max current. You paid good money for alternator charging performance so you want to ensure you are actually getting it! You are going to want to go as big as you can with the "pipes".... 2GA wire at 20' (round trip or 10' each way) results in a voltage drop of about .4V at 120A.. or 14.0V at the batteries instead of 14.4V... (this is from your busbars and is ADDITIVE to the voltage drop between the busbars and the engine...!) Of course these VD calcs do not account for any of your terminations, connections or buss bars so figure on approx a .5V drop or more on 2GA wire at 120A from the busbars.. This means the charging system you paid for will be painfully slow, and lack performance, unless you volt sense properly. Even if you volt sense properly you are still working the system harder than it should be for no good reason by trying to compensate for too much voltage drop.. If spending the money on AGM batteries it becomes critically important to charge them properly. This means battery temp sensors for charging sources including solar, proper voltages at the battery terminals and a properly wired bank. For this task 2/0 would be my minimum recommendation if the run is 20' round trip. Course I have no clue what you already have in place and that VD may already be .4V so it is going to be best to redesign this from the ground up. Over-current protection is sized to protect the wire and goes within 7" of the battery positive terminal. With 2/0 wire you can easily fuse with 300A+... Remotely located batteries can be done but they are rarely done correctly...
DANG IT, Why can't anything be easy?
 
Oct 2, 2008
1,424
Island Packet 31 Brunswick, Ga
Mainesail. I can't put another two hundred pounds back here. I am gonna have to wire a LiIon, you wanna come down to Georgia?
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,759
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
DANG IT, Why can't anything be easy?
Actually, it IS easy; the thing is you HAVE to approach it as a SYSTEM, not just the individual parts. A SYSTEM approach includes: parts, distribution (wires), connections, distance and sizing based on those distances.

Good luck.
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
You can do what you want if you do it correctly. Not tough just requires moving some wires....
it can't be easy because they are out to get us. Everything will take 4 times longer than planned will require purchase of all kinds of special tools will take countless trips to the hardware and boat stores and cost a fortune. You will need a chiropractor when done. Welcome to boating
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,665
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
it can't be easy because they are out to get us. Everything will take 4 times longer than planned will require purchase of all kinds of special tools will take countless trips to the hardware and boat stores and cost a fortune. You will need a chiropractor when done. Welcome to boating
Oh you forgot that little Irishman, Murphy, is also waiting for you....;););)
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
While I agree with what Maine posted I would do anything I could to keep the batteries aft near the engine area. Moving them forward complicates things as noted.

Isn't there anything else you could move forward instead?
 
Oct 2, 2008
1,424
Island Packet 31 Brunswick, Ga
While I agree with what Maine posted I would do anything I could to keep the batteries aft near the engine area. Moving them forward complicates things as noted. Isn't there anything else you could move forward instead?
Yes they (who?) are out to get us! And I am pretty sure that God hates me too!! Ha. Not really of course. I've actually got it made. I live on a boat currently at Jekyll Island, I walk the beach most mornings, catch my own shrimp, and an occasional redfish or crab. Not bad. Yep I can find some more stuff to move forward and just "Let it be. Let it be".
 
Oct 2, 2008
1,424
Island Packet 31 Brunswick, Ga
It is not so much your starter as your alternator performance. Your starter draws huge loads but for short periods. They still like large cable and minimal voltage drop. In order to "properly" wire remotely located batteries all voltage sensing for the regulators still needs to come directly off the battery terminals not a busbar 20' away.. This includes regulator RED/V-SENSE and regulator BLACK/NEG... If you have a battery monitor then the shunt and v-sense also needs to be located as close to the batt neg as possible otherwise the voltage readings will be incorrect and can skew your perspective... Battery chargers and solar may also have some voltage drop to contend with depending upon max current. You paid good money for alternator charging performance so you want to ensure you are actually getting it! You are going to want to go as big as you can with the "pipes".... 2GA wire at 20' (round trip or 10' each way) results in a voltage drop of about .4V at 120A.. or 14.0V at the batteries instead of 14.4V... (this is from your busbars and is ADDITIVE to the voltage drop between the busbars and the engine...!) Of course these VD calcs do not account for any of your terminations, connections or buss bars so figure on approx a .5V drop or more on 2GA wire at 120A from the busbars.. This means the charging system you paid for will be painfully slow, and lack performance, unless you volt sense properly. Even if you volt sense properly you are still working the system harder than it should be for no good reason by trying to compensate for too much voltage drop.. If spending the money on AGM batteries it becomes critically important to charge them properly. This means battery temp sensors for charging sources including solar, proper voltages at the battery terminals and a properly wired bank. For this task 2/0 would be my minimum recommendation if the run is 20' round trip. Course I have no clue what you already have in place and that VD may already be .4V so it is going to be best to redesign this from the ground up. Over-current protection is sized to protect the wire and goes within 7" of the battery positive terminal. With 2/0 wire you can easily fuse with 300A+... Remotely located batteries can be done but they are rarely done correctly...
Hey wait, here is a idea. What if I make a battery bank of three batteries. The one battery is close to the engine and has all the sensors connected to it the other two batteries are located remotely. in a sense I have made a battery bankable with more internal resistance than average, but also larger capacity, say 400 amp hours instead of 300. Would things work better that way? Mainsail I'll bet that is not found in any book. I'll need your input.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,665
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Hey wait, here is a idea. What if I make a battery bank of three batteries. The one battery is close to the engine and has all the sensors connected to it the other two batteries are located remotely. in a sense I have made a battery bankable with more internal resistance than average, but also larger capacity, say 400 amp hours instead of 300. Would things work better that way? Mainsail I'll bet that is not found in any book. I'll need your input.
You will still need either the positive or neg take off for the bank at opposite ends of the bank. If it is the neg end that is far then ideally the shunt needs to be moved and neg v-sense too..

This will also require more large gauge cable because you have two fat parallel cables plus either a positive or neg bank feed...
 
Oct 2, 2008
1,424
Island Packet 31 Brunswick, Ga
It is not so much your starter as your alternator performance. Your starter draws huge loads but for short periods. They still like large cable and minimal voltage drop. In order to "properly" wire remotely located batteries all voltage sensing for the regulators still needs to come directly off the battery terminals not a busbar 20' away.. This includes regulator RED/V-SENSE and regulator BLACK/NEG... Remotely located batteries can be done but they are rarely done correctly...
I am continuing with this project. I have ordered 3 of the Lifeline GPL31XT batteries. They are moving forward more to the center of my vessel. They will be under the salon settee. I am relocating my Pronautic 1240P charger, and midnite Kid approx 7 feet round trip the batteries. I am upgrading the cables and sensing wire as recommended: 2/0 for the run from the bus bar to the batteries, and will do the same for alternator to battery selector switch. Total cabling round trip for batteries to alternator is very close to 38 feet. But I have a question. I noticed you said above the " regulator RED/V-SENSE and regulator BLACK/NEG ". Go to the batteries post. But Electromax has the alternator case grounding cable coming off the alternator going to the engine ground, But, and AND HERE IS THE QUESTION: FOR THE REGULATOR balmar says to connect this black negative wire to the same ground as the alternator case. Should I run this wire, which comes off the plug/harness to the negative on the battery?? round trip for this is 36 feet from alternator to battery bank to alternator/regulator. Thoughts and enlightenment please! Keith.
 

Attachments

Feb 6, 1998
11,665
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I am continuing with this project. I have ordered 3 of the Lifeline GPL31XT batteries. They are moving forward more to the center of my vessel. They will be under the salon settee. I am relocating my Pronautic 1240P charger, and midnite Kid approx 7 feet round trip the batteries. I am upgrading the cables and sensing wire as recommended: 2/0 for the run from the bus bar to the batteries, and will do the same for alternator to battery selector switch. Total cabling round trip for batteries to alternator is very close to 38 feet. But I have a question. I noticed you said above the " regulator RED/V-SENSE and regulator BLACK/NEG ". Go to the batteries post. But Electromax has the alternator case grounding cable coming off the alternator going to the engine ground, But, and AND HERE IS THE QUESTION: FOR THE REGULATOR balmar says to connect this black negative wire to the same ground as the alternator case. Should I run this wire, which comes off the plug/harness to the negative on the battery?? round trip for this is 36 feet from alternator to battery bank to alternator/regulator. Thoughts and enlightenment please! Keith.
Balmar is simply wrong on this. I have asked that they make this change or add an adendum in the manual but this has not happened yet..

Volt sensing is a circuit. You can't just have a + volt sense wire because the entire circuit carries the current. By wiring the black reg wire to the alt you lose the neg side of the circuit for voltage measurements.. The black reg wire and red v-sense must be wired direct to the batteries. Especially with 38' of cable & terminals in the circuit. If you want or expect the performance you paid for then both the black reg and v-sense reg wires need to go direct to the battery terminals.

Lifeline batteries are quite temperamental when it comes to charging practices. Be sure you are temp compensating the charge voltage from all sources, getting accurate voltage at the terminals and getting back to 100% SOC as often as is humanly possible. You will also want to have a way to condition charge them...

These are actual voltage drop numbers from a boat I worked on two years ago. The "wire", according to the owner, was sized for a 3% +/- voltage drop but terminations, fuses etc. were not accounted for and the length wound up a bit longer than anticipated in the calculations.


These three illustrations show how the voltage sense circuit works as you modify the volt sense wiring:


MC-614 alternator regulator sensing the back of the alternator:






Voltage sense + wire moved to battery bank only:






Regulator B- / negative and v-sense + both moved to battery bank:

 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
I am upgrading the cables and sensing wire as recommended: 2/0 for the run from the bus bar to the batteries, and will do the same for alternator to battery selector switch.
Alternator output should go direct to house bank.
 
Oct 2, 2008
1,424
Island Packet 31 Brunswick, Ga
Balmar is simply wrong on this. I have asked that they make this change or add an adendum in the manual but this has not happened yet..

Volt sensing is a circuit. You can't just have a + volt sense wire because the entire circuit carries the current. By wiring the black reg wire to the alt you lose the neg side of the circuit for voltage measurements.. The black reg wire and red v-sense must be wired direct to the batteries. Especially with 38' of cable & terminals in the circuit. If you want or expect the performance you paid for then both the black reg and v-sense reg wires need to go direct to the battery terminals.

Lifeline batteries are quite temperamental when it comes to charging practices. Be sure you are temp compensating the charge voltage from all sources, getting accurate voltage at the terminals and getting back to 100% SOC as often as is humanly possible. You will also want to have a way to condition charge them...

These are actual voltage drop numbers from a boat I worked on two years ago. The "wire", according to the owner, was sized for a 3% +/- voltage drop but terminations, fuses etc. were not accounted for and the length wound up a bit longer than anticipated in the calculations.
Are you satisfied with the 2/0 if i am careful with the connections. and should i use a battery block fuse for the 2/0 at around 300 amps?.

I am hoping that if I keep my midnite kid carefully adjusted, it will be close to the batteries and be the source that keeps the batteries fully charged to correct voltage at least every ten days.

Regarding solar panels, how big should my pipes be from the panel to the controller? coming out of the controller on a sunny day i can be getting 220 or more watts, and 15 or more amps, but i am not sure what amps the panels are producing. they are 2 of the 180 watter's in series. Cable length from the panels to the controller is around a 30 foot run by the time I account for turns and all. Cables look to be around a 12 AWG.

Thanks so much for the quick reply and helpful advice. Nice work Maine Sail, I couldn't have become the sailing do it y ourselfer without help from this site.

I owe you another $ite donation!
Keith
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,665
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Are you satisfied with the 2/0 if i am careful with the connections. and should i use a battery block fuse for the 2/0 at around 300 amps?.

I am hoping that if I keep my midnite kid carefully adjusted, it will be close to the batteries and be the source that keeps the batteries fully charged to correct voltage at least every ten days.

Regarding solar panels, how big should my pipes be from the panel to the controller? coming out of the controller on a sunny day i can be getting 220 or more watts, and 15 or more amps, but i am not sure what amps the panels are producing. they are 2 of the 180 watter's in series. Cable length from the panels to the controller is around a 30 foot run by the time I account for turns and all. Cables look to be around a 12 AWG.

Thanks so much for the quick reply and helpful advice. Nice work Maine Sail, I couldn't have become the sailing do it y ourselfer without help from this site.

I owe you another $ite donation!
Keith
2/0 is fine but you will still have some voltage drop at high charge rates so for best performance you still need proper volt sensing. As has been said alt should direct feed the battery bank not the "C" post of the switch otherwise volt sensing will not work correctly.