Considering a repower

[John rolka]

I have a 1984 Catalina 30 for 2 years now, I've done some work to get her into ship shape, and she is quite nice. I'm very satisfied with all except the engine. When I bought the boat I was looking for a 3 cyl., engine but this one was near by in very nice shape and the price was right so I settled for the M18 14hp engine.

I sail in from the west end of Long Island Sound so I have to deal with currents, at times a lack of wind, and a predominant SW wind which makes getting home a lot of work. The engine now, and I've played with the prop, I think I have that as good as I can get it, will push the boat at a max of 4 or so kts. Any current or wind and its downhill from there. I do motor sail when possible which helps, but the dominant wind pattern and the shape of the sound means my homeward bound leg is often dead into the wind. The lack of power has kept me from venturing too far east, with my previous boat we've gone as far as Mystic, I'd like to take the boat to Block Island and Martha's Vineyard as things are I only feel comfortable to stay in the western half of the sound, I've spend solid days beating into 10-15 to get home and its exhausting and time consuming.

My question is how much horsepower is needed to push a Catalina 30 reliably at hull speed, even with some headwind and current, I'm not expecting at make hull speed against a gale but I do want to push reliably against 10-15?

I'm probably getting 11 or 12HP in cruising range, take off something for the transmission and fiction. Is 20 enough?

For those with the M20 or M25 or M25XP how is you performance? I've talked to a shop, they recommend the Yanmar 20 or 30 HP. The cost differential is maybe 1500 bucks for the extra 10 HP, I wouldn't want to undertake this as be just short. After these 2 years of being a turtle want to hit the gas and go. No if ands or buts...

Thanks for your thought,
John

 

[The Garbone]

More power is better. Just watch out for clearance issues. Someone put a bigger mill in my boat and now it has a hump in the hatch cover.

Your not the first person I have heard complaining about the smaller diesel.

 

[Guts1236]

I repowered my I repowered my 1987 Catalina 30 with a beta. I ordered a 20 hp but for some reason they sent me a 25 hp at no additional cost to me. I think 20 hp would be enough for any Catalina 30. As far as speed the boat haul is only going to let it go so fast. I put a 13 inch 10 pitch three bladed prop on it. It really need to be a 13 x 9 to achieve the full RPM range of 3600.

I would seriously look into the beta it has a lot of things going for it. One of which is the oil pump out mounted right to the engine itself. For ease of changing the oil, also has aluminum pan which I believe is cast. The beta 25 that I put in my Catalina is easy to install and two people can easily pick the engine up. It'll come with the shaft coupling and coupling saver transmission and everything else need to do the install. There were a couple upgrades that I did which are; plumbing for water heater(basicly Two fittings on the back of the engine) high output alternator (for these high output they use a serpentine belt) the other upgrade was the gauge package I believe there are three available for the beta, with a small basic one included in the price of the engine along with the harness. I highly recommend the beta. Good luck with your choice.

There was a clearance issue in the seat cushion above the engine. I made a new seat at a three-quarter inch plywood rounded the edges and upholstered the cushion when I put the new cushions in. You cannot tell the difference in looking at the cushions. If anybody wants pictures I can send them some. I also did cut the bottom of the cabinet slightly to accommodate the engine. The center line of your shaft determines the center line of your crankshaft so you can take it from there.

Kim

 

[Jongleur]

Guts1236:

Wow. That is one clean engine!

 

[John rolka]

Thanks Kim,

I'll look into your transmission ratio to see how that's geared. My 14 HP engine with its tranny, will turn a 2 blade 13x10 prop at 3000prm, and this only gets me to the 4kts in still conditions. Is your prop 2 or 3 bladed? My understanding is for a given rpm a prop will provide a given amount of thrust. Horsepower is balanced against prop diameter, # of blades and pitch. Previously I was over proped, and could only hit 2K rpm in gear, I downed from 12 to 10 pitch and could then do 3k rpm of a max of 3200. 13 inches is the largest prop I can fit on the boat without lengthening the shaft, or there is that extendo prop which will fit a 15 dia on a Cat 30. With the added horse power I was planning on a new prop, Either the larger dia or 3 bladed.

In terms of the job, you did it yourself? I'm handy, have an engineering and construction background, I've done everything to the boat myself but the aligning and the plain old just getting the engine into the boat whether I'm in a slip or hauled out makes me wonder if I should give it to a pro.

Is this in the realm of the reasonably handy?

Thanks,
John Rolka

 

[John rolka]

Labor Day weekend I was in Oyster Bay got caught out in some nasty squalls the radio was going crazy with the weather alerts,. I was motoring back as fast as I could and everyone was just blowing by me like I was standing still, I was like a running turtle full out moving slowly. ... :-(

 

[Guts1236]

Thanks Kim,

I'll look into your transmission ratio to see how that's geared. My 14 HP engine with its tranny, will turn a 2 blade 13x10 prop at 3000prm, and this only gets me to the 4kts in still conditions. Is your prop 2 or 3 bladed? My understanding is for a given rpm a prop will provide a given amount of thrust. Horsepower is balanced against prop diameter, # of blades and pitch. Previously I was over proped, and could only hit 2K rpm in gear, I downed from 12 to 10 pitch and could then do 3k rpm of a max of 3200. 13 inches is the largest prop I can fit on the boat without lengthening the shaft, or there is that extendo prop which will fit a 15 dia on a Cat 30. With the added horse power I was planning on a new prop, Either the larger dia or 3 bladed.

In terms of the job, you did it yourself? I'm handy, have an engineering and construction background, I've done everything to the boat myself but the aligning and the plain old just getting the engine into the boat whether I'm in a slip or hauled out makes me wonder if I should give it to a pro.

Is this in the realm of the reasonably handy?

Thanks,
John Rolka

John I believe the transmission ratio is two the one. I'm using a three blade propeller and maximum RPM on this engine is 3600 I am getting about 3250 WOT as I said before it is a 13 inch 10 pitch three blade propeller. I can give you a Web address on where to get these if you're interested. I don't feel like I want to post their web address to this forum / personal reasons

I did a lot of the work myself, when it came to putting the engine in and aligning the shaft I was working with the mechanic that has the beta dealer ship here in San Diego California. His name is Phil Jones and a great guy to work with. I think the most important thing when lining your shaft to your engine--- well I'm going to try to put it in words I hope it comes out OK... First the shaft in the shaft housing has to be in the center of the housing you can do this by moving the shaft up and down back and forth until you are sure that the shaft is in the middle of the housing very important (I could show you pictures of what happens if it is not) I still have the old shaft housing I should take a picture of and post here, if I remember when I'm down there to take a picture. Once you are sure that the shaft is in the center of the shaft housing you have to tie it in place block it in place do whatever you can to keep it there, again very important. Then you install your engine and move it around to get your clearances. Once the engine is aligned in your motor mounts are all tightened up etc. etc. then you push the shaft back and insert the shaft saver. This is a plastic device that goes in between the two couplings it helps with vibration and also if you get a line wrapped around your prop the shaft saver will break rather than cause damage. These come with the beta engine. I worked with the mechanic in this installation and feel very confident that I could do it again myself. But since he was the dealer and sold me the engine I decided to pay him to install the engine. The engine install took 12 hours from the time we pick the engine up and set it inside the compartment till the time we took it out for a sea trial. That's when I found out my prop was no good and would barely move the boat. When the propeller is shot it just will not move the boat...

When I had the engine out I cleaned everything even the bilge with lacquer thinner sanded and did little glass work here and there. Then painted the entire engine compartment and bilge with white gel coat. The picture of the seat that is upside down I also used 1 inch sound and heat insulation with fender washers and stainless steel screws holding in place. Going down to the boat for a few days.I will check in later

One other expense that I'd like to mention here is your hoses and those damn hose clamps really add up. Then if you going to put a new water strainer and may be a ray-cor fuel filter separator lots of small parts that at up to big prices. One thing that I also want to mention is hose clamps. I've been using the hose clamp that does not have the little cuts go all the way through in other words for the screw bites the hose clamp it's only on one side. They are all 316 stainless and in the realm of things cost less in the long run. I would highly recommend these.

I'm not sure where you're located my engine came from the beta Marine West but they have a distributor for the East Coast dealers.

http://www.betamarinenc.com/index.php/dealer-network

http://betamarinewest.com/

Kim

 

[Randy6414]

John,

I've got the Universal M-18 (14hp) in my '84 Catalina 27, and have no problem reaching hull speed, with power to spare. While I realize the 30 is bigger all around, I am surprised to hear the M-18 comes up so short in terms of being able to push it.

A couple thoughts:

Is your engine generally in good shape, with fresh fuel, fuel filters, air filter, etc?

What rpm does it reach in neutral at the dock, with no load? Are you certain your tachometer is accurate? (You can check actual rpm fairly easily and compare against the tach.)

How many hours on the engine? Does it need any work, adjustment, etc.?

I don't recall what my transmission ratio is offhand. Is yours original, or was it changed at some point?

Is the bottom clean, and is the bottom paint in good condition?

Hopefully you can exhaust all options with the M-18 before sinking the cash into a repower.

Randy

 

[John rolka]

John,

I've got the Universal M-18 (14hp) in my '84 Catalina 27, and have no problem reaching hull speed, with power to spare. While I realize the 30 is bigger all around, I am surprised to hear the M-18 comes up so short in terms of being able to push it.

A couple thoughts:

Is your engine generally in good shape, with fresh fuel, fuel filters, air filter, etc?

What rpm does it reach in neutral at the dock, with no load? Are you certain your tachometer is accurate? (You can check actual rpm fairly easily and compare against the tach.)

How many hours on the engine? Does it need any work, adjustment, etc.?

I don't recall what my transmission ratio is offhand. Is yours original, or was it changed at some point?

Is the bottom clean, and is the bottom paint in good condition?

Hopefully you can exhaust all options with the M-18 before sinking the cash into a repower.

Randy

Hi Randy thanks for the comments, I was hoping to prolong and live with this engine as long as possible. But the performance I've had, has kept me from doing the trips I want to do. I think this engine would be perfect for a 27. I'm 3000lbs heavier unladen and then since the boat is bigger I pile more junk into it... I've made the investment of installing a bowsprit, adding a sail, the interior is in really nice shape, I rewired the engine and main electrical panel, probably took out 100ft of wire all the wire twisted together then wrapped around with electrical tape are gone. The birds nest of wires next to the engine gone. Its actually in nice shape, and I'm loath to starting that process over with a new boat. From Kim's comments I think I need to talk to a yard see if I can get some support and a possible consultation. Then do as much of the work myself.

My engine had 1500 hours on it. Previously it was over propped which wears the engine, I don't know how long it was thus. The engine runs fins, I've not done any compression testing on the cylinders but I had the engine went over by a good mechanic in our neighborhood and it got a clean bill of health.

Previously I had exactly the opposite problem, well it wasn't a problem except for docking, I had a Catalina 27 with and Atomic 4. Plenty of power, direct drive, with a clean hull all I had to do was put it in gear, even at idle I could do hull speed in calm conditions. It was like trying to paralell park with only 3rd gear.

I want to be able to know if I'm out at Block Island and I need to get back in 2 days, I an turn on the engine and do 5 kts. My dear little M18 aint doing it.

Regards,
John ROlka

 

[John rolka]

Thanks Kim,

I think with that shaft saver thing some of the fine adjustments of the engine mounts is less of an issue, that was concerning me. Did it move your engine forward at all or did you have to push your coupling and shaft any further back? As you know with the catalina 30 there maybe like an inch from the coupling to the packing nut, I replaced the shaft last year, with the new prop, as part of my trying to make this engine work. I have a call in to Sound marine diesel who is the beta dealer here. I'm looking at the Beta and Yanmar. Good point to replace all hoses and clamps, though I was hoping to keep all, fuel separator, fuel pump, etc. I'll research the thrust of the 3 vs 2 blade prop. With your set up, you can reliably do 5kts at least when you need to cover ground?

Thanks again for your comments.
John

 

[rbyham]

I have wondered about actual performance of these smaller diesels. But for now the 30hp I get from my indigo propped Atomic 4 are a good plenty even in Charleston's frequent 4 knots of tidal current. Check Moyer Marine for new Atomic 4s. Pricing is very competitive. OK flame away

 

[The Garbone]

I have wondered about actual performance of these smaller diesels. But for now the 30hp I get from my indigo propped Atomic 4 are a good plenty even in Charleston's frequent 4 knots of tidal current. Check Moyer Marine for new Atomic 4s. Pricing is very competitive. OK flame away

This is what is going in my boat...

 

[John rolka]

I have wondered about actual performance of these smaller diesels. But for now the 30hp I get from my indigo propped Atomic 4 are a good plenty even in Charleston's frequent 4 knots of tidal current. Check Moyer Marine for new Atomic 4s. Pricing is very competitive. OK flame away

I lost a few years of experience and knowledge when I changed boats and went from the Atom Bomb to a diesel. I loved my atomic four, but now that I've have a diesel, I don't want to change over fuel systems. Worried about the fuel tank, and all lines, etc. I realize its probably naive on my part but I'm hoping to change as little as possible... And the cost diff ain't that substantial...

 

[drazlou]

John,

I have a 94 C30 with the M25XP with 23 hp and the original two blade prop. I can easily do 6 knots at 2500 rpm.

 

[Bob4203]

I have a 1988 Mark II that came with the M-18. It was only offered for a year or two after they dropped the 5411 and before the M-25. Although I sail on a lake and the engine is just fine for getting me in and out of the dock, we are concerned as to just how well the engine will do in strong tidal conditions (Georgia, South and North Carolina) when it comes time to take it to the ICW for some cruising.

I was advised to replaced the two blade prop with a three blade for greater torque, but it will not push me any faster. I would agree that the cost of repowering could be high but having that greater horsepower makes all the difference. Lets face it as I did many decades ago; cruising the ICW means you are under power 75% of the time. If you do not have sufficient power to take on strong tidal conditions and handling in strong winds, then your challenged!!

 

[BigPie]

I re-powered my 1982 with a Beta-25. I had a power boat prop cut down and tuned for the boat length and displacement. I get to hull speed in almost any conditions. I had to modify the forward engine block, extend the access hatch 2 inches, and modify the top engine cover. I lost a 1/2 knot of speed under sail with the prop but it was worth it.

 

[jrowan]

I know that bigger is better these days, & its all about diesel power, but have you considered repowering with an electric motor? They have come along way in the last few years, produce no emissions, make almost no noise, are fast & powerful, require no transmission, will never seize up do to lack of oil, & require no cooling system which can & will leak. Wow, now that I think about it, that's a lot of plusses. The only minus would be the large battery bank that you have to maintain. But seeing that most boats are plugged into shore power at the slip for 95% if their life, you always have power to recharge the system. If the boat is left on a mooring, then I would not consider electric, as solar panels are likely not powerful enough to recharge quickly from a deep draw. Your boat, your choice.

 

[John rolka]

I re-powered my 1982 with a Beta-25. I had a power boat prop cut down and tuned for the boat length and displacement. I get to hull speed in almost any conditions. I had to modify the forward engine block, extend the access hatch 2 inches, and modify the top engine cover. I lost a 1/2 knot of speed under sail with the prop but it was worth it.

Hi thanks for the comment, when you say power boat prop i imagine like from a trawler? Not a high rpm engine. How is it different from a sail boat prop? Sail props keep blades thinner for less drag under sail. Larger blade area=more thrust?...

 

[John rolka]

Well i went for the beta 25, self install, winter project should begin towards end of November. After this is in and running the prop is the thing to figure out. I still have the 2 blade 13x12 which came with the boat, way to much prop for the M18. Ive seen it reputed to be the 2 blade prop for the m-25. Ill go witht that to begin with and if i want to up to a 3 blade for more thrust ill think about that after i recover a little financially from this engine purchase. Thanks for all the comments.

 

[Maine Sail]

I re-powered our old C-30 with a Universal M3-20 (18HP). It was more engine than the boat needed.. Even against the strong tides in the rivers here in Maine the M3-20B was more than enough, when it had the right prop. It was totally useless at boobs-on-a-bull with the two blade folding Martec (yes it was correctly sized) but once I put a three blade sailor prop on it was like a tank. The prop choice can make or break the boat...

The biggest issue is usually being over propped. If your prop is correct then you should easily be able to drive a C-30 with the M-18 (14HP). Heck our Catalina 36 was easily driven by an M-25 (23HP). The key here is to get the prop right, most boats are either over or under propped on top of tachs being incorrect this leads folks to think they are under powered.

Confirm your prop, tach and engine are in synch before plopping down on a repower...

P.S. If I were to do a re-power today, for my own boat, it would be a Beta... Yanmar, Westerbeke, Universal etc. are all great engines but be prepared to be bent over for the parts pricing.

Beta is not shy to tell you which Kubota equivalent parts work with their engines. A real, breath of fresh air. Stanley at Beta US can not be beat for customer service!! Heck Westerbeke contracts with Mitsubishi that a Mitsubishi dealer can not sell a part to a customer if they know it is going on a Westerbeke.. Lawyer written contracts with the engine supplier to prevent you from getting reasonable parts prices..!!! Sheesh.....