Concerning the boat that sank during the Vera Cruz race

[sailaway78]

There was quite a bit of info. on this in the Galveston news rag past couple of days. One of the things I found a little bit disturbing were a couple of statements by some who are supposedly knowledgable. Statements were to the effect that the winds were around 20 knots, and seas in the six to eight foot range, and this was at the limits of the capabilities of this boat. Where did they find these knowledgable idiots. Six to eight footers is not close to the limits of any 38 footer I know of. And these guys were part of an offshore sailing team, and pretty experienced sailors. I do realize that in this part of the gulf, it is fairly shallow, and there is some current. Seas can get steep, but sheesh. Six to eight footers being dangerous. I can personally recall being in eight footers and enjoying the ride, on a 39. Does anyone else believe this non sense, or that six to eight foot seas is reason enough for a keel to come off. Hell, if 20 knots and eight foot seas is reaching the limits of a 38' boat, I will have to quit sailing offshore.

 

[CharlieCobra]

Not even close to the limits.

My 47 year old boat's been out in 55+ and 10-14' wind waves several times since Sept. Something broke, plain and simple.

 

[Tim R.]

I agree

Sounds like ideal race conditions. Something broke. Did they recover the boat? Could be corroded keel bolts and it let loose.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Keep in mind

that newspaper reporters may not be sailors and no one checks for technical correctness. Some of the reports are put together from other reports without any personal knowledge. Some of the best details are in the Houston Chronicle.Phillip:this is the race Franklin is in.Tony B

 

[sailaway78]

Been keeping up with it

I have been keeping up with Franklin's progress. Seems to be holding his own, and I have the feeling he isn't a real racer as far as racers go. The quote I was sort of trashing, was from someone they found who was supposed to be an expert. Wouldn't think much of it if it had been from Joe Blow. But anyone who is supposed to be an expert?? Hell Tony, we had 8 footers or so bringing your boat home, and I enjoyed the ride. Remember the 2 to 6 watch one night, and sitting at the wheel, and having to look up to see the tops of the waves. Never felt even remotely threatened.

 

[sailaway78]

Going to recover the boat

From what I have read they are going to try to recover the boat, and find out exactly what happened. My money is on them hitting something. This boat belongs to A&M, and I can not imagine any needed maintenance going undone, or inspections not being made. Talk about being opened up to lawsuits if they did.

 

[Maine Sail]

Some talk on..

Some posters on other forums, who claim to know the boat, say it had been grounded more than once and repaired. It was apparently a 2004 Cape Fear 38 so I doubt it suffered from crevice corrosion. Bruce Marek has a good design record & my guess is that perhaps it was sub par repairs related to previous groundings.. We'll lnow for sure when they bring her up.. This was a post by a guy named Jon H. on SA:"The boat had suffered at least 2 groundings that I know of, both in the Galveston Bay area.One of them required the boat to be hauled out for repairs.I do not know the extent of the repair that was made, nor who did the work."

 

[RichH]

I'll put my bet on .....

fatigued keel bolts. OK a severe grounding will accelerate the fatigue; but, when stainless is cyclically loaded above its endurance limit (30kpsi) you only get approx. a million load cycles, then you get catastrophic brittle failure. This boat was constantly raced so therefore the load cycles would be 'aggressive' and easy to accumulate the greater than 1M cycles above the 'endurance/fatigue' limit of the bolts. Couple the fatigue possibility with inferior stainless coming out of asia .... I place my bets on fatigue failure. With a grounding/impact you get ductile failure and that involves dimensional changes that would be easy to spot on inspection or repair. Fatigue failure is like most other brittle failure, no ductility/no elongation, etc. in the metal, ..... yet catastrophic failure.

 

[Ross]

We have discussed more than a couple of sinkings because

something broke on a boat. A few weeks ago a rudder broke off or fell off and the boat sank. I think that if the industry is going to escape crippling government regulation it is going to have to raise the standards of initial strength of structure and the quality of the repairs that are made. This is the only industry in which a person can claim to be a fiberglass repairman and not have to pass some manner of certification. The same words apply to electrical systems , rigging, and I think just about everything else with private boating.

 

[Ross]

RichH , Lets hope that a large enough safety factor is

built into the attachment bolts that they are never stressed to their elastic limits. A million cycles in the ocean certainly won't take long when wave lengths are 100 feet and the speed is 6 knots. Thats 60 cycles per mile, 360 per hour and about 2800 hours at sea. That works down to about 4 months and it takes longer than that to circumnavigate the globe. They might have to change keel bolts 3 or 4 times on a long voyage. On the other hand good design and engineering will reduce the stress on the bolts to that imposed by gravity.

 

[Ross]

Would anyone here consider welding a flange to the foot

of a mast and bolt it to a reinforced deck and do away with the shrouds and stays? This is approximately what has been done with keels and rudders.

 

[CharlieCobra]

Not on mine it ain't.

nm

 

[Rick D]

Ross

...now, would you still like wire stays on aircraft ;D ?

 

[Ross]

Rick , have you looked closely at the manner in which

wings are attached to airplanes? We seem to have gone backwards in sail boat design. Lee boards have more support than some keels.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Phillip

I remember sitting in the cockpit with the 8+ waves and us wondering how Herb could possibly be sleeping in the V berth. He admitted that he was leaving the bunk from time to time and going air-borne.Franklin is not a racer in the true sense. He also was in the Harvest Moon race. This is all in preparation for him to make the final 'good bye' and sail over the horizon. He is gaining experience rapidly and in a few more years he will be off cruising somewhere with no plans of returning.Tony B

 

[RichH]

Ross - the main point is that most times the forces ....

dont exceed the endurance limit (30 kpsi) of the material - every single time'. Especially in a racing boat for the open ocean the design stress would be only 22kspi (when the boat was designed with a normal safety factor of 4) ... its those intervals that go above 30kpsi in 90kpsi stainless are the ones that exceed the 'endurance limit of fatigue'. And yes at the distance of one circumnavigation (and without pressing the boat) most of critical stress components (rigging/chainplates/keel bolts will probably be 'tired out' and brittle. If you never exceed the endurance limit of the material, fatigue failure will very rarely happen; if you are always near or exceed the endurance limit, then failure will be common. Fatigue is a very very different criteria than 'ductile' failure.

 

[Ross]

RichH, I think that there must be in some boats a design

life expectency. In others there is no practical limit to the useful life because it has been so over built as to not suffer stress fatigue. The B-52 Aircraft and the C-130 are excellant examples among many other for systems engineered for very long service lives. Just a modest increase in the spread of the keel bolts would reduce the dynamic strain and stress by an order of magnitude. I think that the designers have been exploring the edges of the envelope at the expense of the people with deep pockets . m any boats have been built for one race and broken up afterwards and replaced with a newer design. But some builders have put proto types into production for racing purposes and the hulls last longer then they ought.

 

[rfrye1]

Where was the EPIRB??

Being an "offshore" event I assume an EPIRB was a required? If not with all the thousands spent on gadgets, and millions spent by A&M on useless stuff, I wonder why wasnt a EPIRB on board? (unless it went down with the boat).To drift for 24+ hrs that close could have been avoided.Bob.

 

[Benny]

I would think they had to hit something. I don't discount

the likelihood of materials fatigue as a contributing factor but based on the prevalent conditions I would not thing that those forces by themselves would have been enough to catastrophically overstress the whole keel to hull assembly. One of the teachers lost his life but he was credited for helping save the other 5. They were found drifting about 1 mile from the boat after 22 hrs. I think they need to pull that boat out and investigate the cause of this accident as it may impact inspection routine and schedule for many of us. All efforts should be utilized to locate the keel. If they hit an unmarked submerged obstruction it should not be to far from where the keel rests.

 

[RichH]

Ross -

You're obviously in way over your head. Most of the fatigue prone components of aircraft are easily replaceable -by design- and are routinely replaced based on the number of 'take-off/landings' or number of hours. In the case of B52s or C130 still flying today relatively few of the critical stress components remain as they were replaced many times during the extension of 'service life' to insure against fatigue failure. That simply cant be done with keelbolts without great expense, etc.