I know the board has been through this many times before. I have also gone through all or at least most of the archives on this subject. As far as I can tell everyone seems to have a little different configurations of compression post support that lies under the cabin floor. Like the post a couple weeks ago, I too have the cupping of approximately half inch on the deck at the Mast foot plate. This depression extends down into the cabin as my aft Head sliding door track has come down due to the bending of the Saloon bulkhead. The floor of the head has also depressed about a quarter inch. The previous owner has installed a deck access plate in the head floor to gain access to the hull in front of cabin bilge. Through this access I have noticed that under the cabin floor are two blocks to support the compression post. The blocks appear to be 2x4's approximately 5 inches long one on top of the other. See Picture. I had the mast stepped this year so that I could fix this issue and so on with my Question to the board. How much down force from the mast does the cabin top support vs. the cabin floor and then the hull? My thoughts on how to fix the problem are a little different than David's fix. David went in from the deck and dug out to the cabin ceiling and then rebuild that. I am thinking about cutting a hole in the floor and cabin ceiling digging the ceiling out to the deck glass and putting a screw post from the blocks on the hull to the deck glass. The only concern I have is that the hull will now be taking the full load of the Mast down force. I would like to hear what others think about this before I start cutting and digging. Pat. Patrick Kelley h-27 Largo
- Status
My understanding is that
neither the ceiling nor the floor supprot any of the compression. The basically transfer the load to the keel or floor. If you are worried about the hull at the point the post sits, just beef it up as far fore/aft and port/starboard as ya can. CharlieH
neither the ceiling nor the floor supprot any of the compression. The basically transfer the load to the keel or floor. If you are worried about the hull at the point the post sits, just beef it up as far fore/aft and port/starboard as ya can. CharlieH
agree with Charlie H
If all is in good shape[solid], load will transfer to hull. You have a novel solution to the problem, but i say it should work.
If all is in good shape[solid], load will transfer to hull. You have a novel solution to the problem, but i say it should work.
Bottoms Up
Thanks Guys for the responses so far. I too believe that at least 90 to 95% if not all goes down through the compression post. That is why I am thinking about creating a new compression post that goes from the hull up to the top layer of glass under the Mast foot plate. Manny: I do think that the 2x4s were put in by the previous owner. This summer I shimmed the foot of the compression post with a quarter inch of aluminum but the mast compressed again after full rig tension was applied. I noticed that at the end of the season my rig was starting to get loose. The blocks run fore and aft and are bedded to the hull with some sort of bedding compound. It is possible that all this has shrunk some to include the compression post. I have not removed the existing compression post yet, but there are no signs of water damage to what I can see. I also do not know how much core materiel has water damage but at least some of it does. My idea is to cut a 4 inch diameter hole up through the cabin ceiling all the way up to the upper deck fiberglass. Also cut a 4 inch diameter hole down through the cabin floor in the head. Then glass in a mound on the hull feathered out fore and aft and some off to the port and starboard sides. I will mount to the fiberglass mound a steel post similar to a house jack with an adjustable head. The other end of the post will go up to the upper deck glass directly under the mast foot plate. Then box in the post with the wiring. I like what you did also. Did you get rid of the cupping around the mast foot plate? Pat.
Thanks Guys for the responses so far. I too believe that at least 90 to 95% if not all goes down through the compression post. That is why I am thinking about creating a new compression post that goes from the hull up to the top layer of glass under the Mast foot plate. Manny: I do think that the 2x4s were put in by the previous owner. This summer I shimmed the foot of the compression post with a quarter inch of aluminum but the mast compressed again after full rig tension was applied. I noticed that at the end of the season my rig was starting to get loose. The blocks run fore and aft and are bedded to the hull with some sort of bedding compound. It is possible that all this has shrunk some to include the compression post. I have not removed the existing compression post yet, but there are no signs of water damage to what I can see. I also do not know how much core materiel has water damage but at least some of it does. My idea is to cut a 4 inch diameter hole up through the cabin ceiling all the way up to the upper deck fiberglass. Also cut a 4 inch diameter hole down through the cabin floor in the head. Then glass in a mound on the hull feathered out fore and aft and some off to the port and starboard sides. I will mount to the fiberglass mound a steel post similar to a house jack with an adjustable head. The other end of the post will go up to the upper deck glass directly under the mast foot plate. Then box in the post with the wiring. I like what you did also. Did you get rid of the cupping around the mast foot plate? Pat.
The Cupping
Hi Patrick, I plan to repair cupping around the mast foot by stripping off the gelcoat and building it back to level with some epoxy and glass. It shouldn't take much... One thing I noticed after removing the section of the deck is that the foot is "hollow" around the edges. The core didn't reach all the way up creating an air space. I'm sure that helped somewhat with the cupping and most of the rot was concentrated in those areas. Now mine is filled with epoxy. One question, was your step fastened with four screws or three? Mine only had three from the factory. Manny
Hi Patrick, I plan to repair cupping around the mast foot by stripping off the gelcoat and building it back to level with some epoxy and glass. It shouldn't take much... One thing I noticed after removing the section of the deck is that the foot is "hollow" around the edges. The core didn't reach all the way up creating an air space. I'm sure that helped somewhat with the cupping and most of the rot was concentrated in those areas. Now mine is filled with epoxy. One question, was your step fastened with four screws or three? Mine only had three from the factory. Manny
Stringers?
Manny: As far as I can tell there is no deformity of any kind on the outer hull where the blocks are at. I took a look right after it came out of the water specifically for any hull movement. As to the Mast step plate, I do not recall how many bolts. I know that one of the bolts is through the deck and sits to port of the Compression post. My guess right now, would be that is the fourth bolt, but will let you know. As you may have noticed, on the h-27, the compression post sits just off center to starboard. Bill: Thanks for the description and as you say, I do NOT want to transfer the down force to the Keel. It is only held on by the keel bolts and I have a completely dry bilge so I do not want to mess with that. As you can see with my original picture that there are only two small blocks one on top of the other that sit under my Compression post. I do not have a stringer that anything connects to. I have heard others mention a stringer. As far as I can tell, looking at the hull that there never has been any stringers glassed to the hull. There are no cut marks that I can see. So, it is possible that the blocks are original on my boat. I would like to here if anyone else has the same blocks that I have. So, Bill do you think that my steel post will work. Especially if I remove the blocks and build up a larger area for the post base. I also intend to put an aluminum block up against the deck and bolt the mast plate to that then put the post up against the block. As in my original post, my concers are that the cabin floor was taking some of the load as there was a small gap from the floor to the two blocks below it. I have approximately 3 inches from the hull up to the cabin floor under the compression post. I was told by one of the guys at Hunter who was on the production line during early 80s that the hull under the compression post is about 1.5 inches thick all fiberglass. A lot of people have read this thread and only 4 have replied besides myself. Am I breaking that much new ground that others do not have an opinion; or is it that everyone is tired of compression post issues? Another question is: Was the fiberglass in the hull a polyester resin or an epoxy resin. I have plenty of West Systems epoxy but do not know if I can count on bonding between the new glass and the hull. Pat. 1980 h-27 LARGO
Manny: As far as I can tell there is no deformity of any kind on the outer hull where the blocks are at. I took a look right after it came out of the water specifically for any hull movement. As to the Mast step plate, I do not recall how many bolts. I know that one of the bolts is through the deck and sits to port of the Compression post. My guess right now, would be that is the fourth bolt, but will let you know. As you may have noticed, on the h-27, the compression post sits just off center to starboard. Bill: Thanks for the description and as you say, I do NOT want to transfer the down force to the Keel. It is only held on by the keel bolts and I have a completely dry bilge so I do not want to mess with that. As you can see with my original picture that there are only two small blocks one on top of the other that sit under my Compression post. I do not have a stringer that anything connects to. I have heard others mention a stringer. As far as I can tell, looking at the hull that there never has been any stringers glassed to the hull. There are no cut marks that I can see. So, it is possible that the blocks are original on my boat. I would like to here if anyone else has the same blocks that I have. So, Bill do you think that my steel post will work. Especially if I remove the blocks and build up a larger area for the post base. I also intend to put an aluminum block up against the deck and bolt the mast plate to that then put the post up against the block. As in my original post, my concers are that the cabin floor was taking some of the load as there was a small gap from the floor to the two blocks below it. I have approximately 3 inches from the hull up to the cabin floor under the compression post. I was told by one of the guys at Hunter who was on the production line during early 80s that the hull under the compression post is about 1.5 inches thick all fiberglass. A lot of people have read this thread and only 4 have replied besides myself. Am I breaking that much new ground that others do not have an opinion; or is it that everyone is tired of compression post issues? Another question is: Was the fiberglass in the hull a polyester resin or an epoxy resin. I have plenty of West Systems epoxy but do not know if I can count on bonding between the new glass and the hull. Pat. 1980 h-27 LARGO
Epoxy will bond.
Original material was polyester. My 1974 hunter 25 had the compression post sorta built into the bulkhead. It rested on a kinda built up 'stringer' that was part of the bulkhead structure itself. A sliding door was built onto all this. It was all spongy about 3 inches up. The stringers that were aft of this were glassed over all the way to the aft end of the cabin. Total of 5 I think. I did a total gut and rebuild of my interior. The overhead under the mast was saturated, delaminated and the core dripping wet. Your idea in post#5 sounds like it may be your best bet. I'd open up a bit more than 4 inches though, for a couple reasons. Gonna be tough to work your epoxy in that small an area and the bigger area ya build up, the stronger it all will be. If possible to do so without creating a huge amount of work. I did all my core repairs under the mast from inside the cabin, leaving my deck looking original. I am not that good with cosmetics is why. I would never have matched the deck. I don't know if a steel post is the way to go either. Rusting may become an issue. CharlieH
Original material was polyester. My 1974 hunter 25 had the compression post sorta built into the bulkhead. It rested on a kinda built up 'stringer' that was part of the bulkhead structure itself. A sliding door was built onto all this. It was all spongy about 3 inches up. The stringers that were aft of this were glassed over all the way to the aft end of the cabin. Total of 5 I think. I did a total gut and rebuild of my interior. The overhead under the mast was saturated, delaminated and the core dripping wet. Your idea in post#5 sounds like it may be your best bet. I'd open up a bit more than 4 inches though, for a couple reasons. Gonna be tough to work your epoxy in that small an area and the bigger area ya build up, the stronger it all will be. If possible to do so without creating a huge amount of work. I did all my core repairs under the mast from inside the cabin, leaving my deck looking original. I am not that good with cosmetics is why. I would never have matched the deck. I don't know if a steel post is the way to go either. Rusting may become an issue. CharlieH
Design/engineering/PRACTICAL standpoint
I have the same boat as CharlieH and also gutted the interior (mostly) for a rebuild. My compression post was teak, a box section dry-screwed to the main bulkhead. The deck was NOT cupped till I took the mast off and removed the spray hood erected a post there to hold the winter cover. Now it is dented about 1/2". This is due to the balsa core rotting. The spray hood on the Mk 1 25s has a solid-glass section in front on which the mast step sits, so the balsa core of the deck has only to spread the load of that. This was not inherently a problem. My deck-cupping is due to not finishing the filling job I was doing and it since got wet when the cover blew off. Prior to that it was fine. As to the compression post, I made a new one out of (varnished) white spruce, which is lighter and stronger in compression (and prettier) than teak. It is 3-1/2 x 3-1/2 (same size) and goes right back in where the other one was. I am also adding a second post forward of the bulkhead, because that's actually where the mast step is. I am eliminating the stupid sliding door for a number of reasons. The bulkhead is sound. I designed a new mast-step plate to accommodate halyard blocks and this gets screwed down, similarly to how the other one was, although I am saturating the holes with epoxy, then redrilling for screws as good boatbuilding practice (vis., Cherubini) dictates. These holes will lead into the compression post and effectively make it permanent in place. It is vital that the compression post spreads the vertical compression load of the mast to other structures. Bill R is right; a true 'deck-stepped mast is a misnomer in fiberglass boats. There is simply no ONE place in the molded fiberglass hull structure to support all that load. The compression post is attached to the bulkhead for the purpose of spreading the load. One look at how mine was constructed told me the glassed-in plywood was doing MUCH more supporting for the mast step than the stupid piece of teak that was held in with ancient bronze screws. I could probably step the mast on it like it is and go sailing. The consistent bond of the plywood fiberglassed to the hull and deck all the way around is FAR stiffer and stronger than landing a pole-like compression post at some main point on the inside of the hull, especially at the front of the keel. It is imporant that we 'do-it-yourself' types do not try to 'reinvent the wheel'. Boats are designed like they are for a reason. Not understanding the reason is NOT a reason to redesign it. I respect everyone on here for the boats they choose and the (sometimes with Herculean) efforts they go through to preserve and enjoy them, but coming from a lifetime of boatbuilding I have to soberly caution everyone AGAINST Home-Depot-like easy fixes involving plain steel, silicone, and woods like pressure-treated yellow pine, red oak, 2x4s, Pergola, etc. When rebuilding your boat, the safest advice it to duplicate as closely as possible the structure being replaced. Improvements should focus on better wood treatment (epoxy), prevention of water intrusion through shingling and proper bedding (5200), and thorough to-hull bonding and sealing (REAL glassing techniques such as styrene saturation and rolling out ALL the air bubbles). These are the improvements that preserve your boat, increase its value, and help reduce or eliminate future work. The first-gen Hunters were cleverly designed and historically have outlasted most other similarly-produced boats of their vintage (look at the very low showing of blisters in the quiz this week). Trust the boat and the designer. JC 2
I have the same boat as CharlieH and also gutted the interior (mostly) for a rebuild. My compression post was teak, a box section dry-screwed to the main bulkhead. The deck was NOT cupped till I took the mast off and removed the spray hood erected a post there to hold the winter cover. Now it is dented about 1/2". This is due to the balsa core rotting. The spray hood on the Mk 1 25s has a solid-glass section in front on which the mast step sits, so the balsa core of the deck has only to spread the load of that. This was not inherently a problem. My deck-cupping is due to not finishing the filling job I was doing and it since got wet when the cover blew off. Prior to that it was fine. As to the compression post, I made a new one out of (varnished) white spruce, which is lighter and stronger in compression (and prettier) than teak. It is 3-1/2 x 3-1/2 (same size) and goes right back in where the other one was. I am also adding a second post forward of the bulkhead, because that's actually where the mast step is. I am eliminating the stupid sliding door for a number of reasons. The bulkhead is sound. I designed a new mast-step plate to accommodate halyard blocks and this gets screwed down, similarly to how the other one was, although I am saturating the holes with epoxy, then redrilling for screws as good boatbuilding practice (vis., Cherubini) dictates. These holes will lead into the compression post and effectively make it permanent in place. It is vital that the compression post spreads the vertical compression load of the mast to other structures. Bill R is right; a true 'deck-stepped mast is a misnomer in fiberglass boats. There is simply no ONE place in the molded fiberglass hull structure to support all that load. The compression post is attached to the bulkhead for the purpose of spreading the load. One look at how mine was constructed told me the glassed-in plywood was doing MUCH more supporting for the mast step than the stupid piece of teak that was held in with ancient bronze screws. I could probably step the mast on it like it is and go sailing. The consistent bond of the plywood fiberglassed to the hull and deck all the way around is FAR stiffer and stronger than landing a pole-like compression post at some main point on the inside of the hull, especially at the front of the keel. It is imporant that we 'do-it-yourself' types do not try to 'reinvent the wheel'. Boats are designed like they are for a reason. Not understanding the reason is NOT a reason to redesign it. I respect everyone on here for the boats they choose and the (sometimes with Herculean) efforts they go through to preserve and enjoy them, but coming from a lifetime of boatbuilding I have to soberly caution everyone AGAINST Home-Depot-like easy fixes involving plain steel, silicone, and woods like pressure-treated yellow pine, red oak, 2x4s, Pergola, etc. When rebuilding your boat, the safest advice it to duplicate as closely as possible the structure being replaced. Improvements should focus on better wood treatment (epoxy), prevention of water intrusion through shingling and proper bedding (5200), and thorough to-hull bonding and sealing (REAL glassing techniques such as styrene saturation and rolling out ALL the air bubbles). These are the improvements that preserve your boat, increase its value, and help reduce or eliminate future work. The first-gen Hunters were cleverly designed and historically have outlasted most other similarly-produced boats of their vintage (look at the very low showing of blisters in the quiz this week). Trust the boat and the designer. JC 2
Rethink is in Order
John: Thank you for responding, I was hoping you would. Based on what you have said, the two 2x4 blocks under the Cabin floor below the compression post make sense. Still not sure if these were original but beginning to think so. If I read your post correctly, what you are saying is that the down force from the mast is distributed between the deck, compression post, main cabin bulkhead?, cabin floor, and the hull. In that case, the 2x4s under my cabin floor are only there to keep the cabin floor from depressing and put very little of the load on the hull itself. In the 27, the compression post is attached to the bulkhead by two brass screws, I suspect to keep the post aligned. There is a third brass screw that goes down into the cabin floor from the compression post. In my boat, when the mast puts down force on the deck, the cabin ceiling depresses into the cabin especially on the port side of the compression post since the post is not directly below the mast step. This then causes the bulkhead to warp and the sliding door track to come down. All this happens apparently because the balsa coring has gotten wet and turned into a sponge with no load carrying capability, correct? The other possible contributor to this is that the compression post, and the blocks below the floor have shrunk a little bit over the last 26 years of use. I agree with you whole heartedly that the Home-Depot Quick Fix is not the way to go on any boat repairs. What I was looking at was a 3 inch diameter Stainless Steel post with Stainless screw drive and locking nuts. The easiest way I could think of to describe this was a House Jack. Not what I was going to use. The other key thing that I mentioned before was that I do have a completely dry bilge and want to keep it that way. So I do not want to do anything that might open up the hull to keel joint. I will have to rethink my fix and NOT go to the hull with the load from the mast. Well, I want to thank everyone for your help. I will make up a photo message about the fix that I end up doing. Any more comments are always welcome on this. By the way JC2, I love this boat. Largo has been set up for single handed sailing by the previous owner. He sailed it over 7,000 miles, and competed in 5 Port Huron to Mackinac Island races. He was a member of the Great Lakes Singlehanded Society. The capabilities of this boat is why I bought it. I intend to keep it sailing and a lot of that will be single-handed. Like you said NO quick fixes. I have to rely on this boat for my life, I am not going to shortcut that. Pat. 1980 h-27 Largo
John: Thank you for responding, I was hoping you would. Based on what you have said, the two 2x4 blocks under the Cabin floor below the compression post make sense. Still not sure if these were original but beginning to think so. If I read your post correctly, what you are saying is that the down force from the mast is distributed between the deck, compression post, main cabin bulkhead?, cabin floor, and the hull. In that case, the 2x4s under my cabin floor are only there to keep the cabin floor from depressing and put very little of the load on the hull itself. In the 27, the compression post is attached to the bulkhead by two brass screws, I suspect to keep the post aligned. There is a third brass screw that goes down into the cabin floor from the compression post. In my boat, when the mast puts down force on the deck, the cabin ceiling depresses into the cabin especially on the port side of the compression post since the post is not directly below the mast step. This then causes the bulkhead to warp and the sliding door track to come down. All this happens apparently because the balsa coring has gotten wet and turned into a sponge with no load carrying capability, correct? The other possible contributor to this is that the compression post, and the blocks below the floor have shrunk a little bit over the last 26 years of use. I agree with you whole heartedly that the Home-Depot Quick Fix is not the way to go on any boat repairs. What I was looking at was a 3 inch diameter Stainless Steel post with Stainless screw drive and locking nuts. The easiest way I could think of to describe this was a House Jack. Not what I was going to use. The other key thing that I mentioned before was that I do have a completely dry bilge and want to keep it that way. So I do not want to do anything that might open up the hull to keel joint. I will have to rethink my fix and NOT go to the hull with the load from the mast. Well, I want to thank everyone for your help. I will make up a photo message about the fix that I end up doing. Any more comments are always welcome on this. By the way JC2, I love this boat. Largo has been set up for single handed sailing by the previous owner. He sailed it over 7,000 miles, and competed in 5 Port Huron to Mackinac Island races. He was a member of the Great Lakes Singlehanded Society. The capabilities of this boat is why I bought it. I intend to keep it sailing and a lot of that will be single-handed. Like you said NO quick fixes. I have to rely on this boat for my life, I am not going to shortcut that. Pat. 1980 h-27 Largo
epoxy vs.polyester resins
Patrick,the resin used in these early hunters was most definitely polyester,epoxy was, as it is now expensive to use in hull building.The added cost just couldn't be passed on in production built boats.Epoxy is THE thing to use when creating a secondary bond with an existing glass laminate. Clean the laminate surface with acetone at a minimum,the best bonding will be by grinding the surface with a 4" angle grinder followed by an acetone wipe before applying epoxy.Although getting a grinder into some places can be difficult,it's important to get a good clean surface to bond to.An excellent article on this is in the march/april 2000 issue of Good old boat.Most compression problems seem to from core rot in the deck,I know mine was.The picture on Manny's post is a familiar sight,dig out the bad,epoxy in the good.And yeah my mast step plate had only bolts in it originaly too.After doing this repair I had no more deck denting or slack rigging.Take JC2's advice do as close to original work as you can,only stronger with modern materials. You won't regret it.Best of luck with repair.
Patrick,the resin used in these early hunters was most definitely polyester,epoxy was, as it is now expensive to use in hull building.The added cost just couldn't be passed on in production built boats.Epoxy is THE thing to use when creating a secondary bond with an existing glass laminate. Clean the laminate surface with acetone at a minimum,the best bonding will be by grinding the surface with a 4" angle grinder followed by an acetone wipe before applying epoxy.Although getting a grinder into some places can be difficult,it's important to get a good clean surface to bond to.An excellent article on this is in the march/april 2000 issue of Good old boat.Most compression problems seem to from core rot in the deck,I know mine was.The picture on Manny's post is a familiar sight,dig out the bad,epoxy in the good.And yeah my mast step plate had only bolts in it originaly too.After doing this repair I had no more deck denting or slack rigging.Take JC2's advice do as close to original work as you can,only stronger with modern materials. You won't regret it.Best of luck with repair.
Make a new wooden post
Pat, your best bet is to fabricate a NEW replacement post. Use white spruce (best alternative to Sitka spruce, which is the RIGHT thing, yet almost impossible to get). If not this, then evaluate the alternatives using data about the wood's suitability for compression. I would bond the post a little more to the main bulkhead than with 3 screws. Mine had about 13. I am using the same holes in the bulkhead over again (more or less). My main bulkhead has a 'deck beam' of teak about 4" wide at the peak of crown, however straight on bottom going from cabinside to cabinside. This is so well bonded to the bulkhead that replacing it is pointless. This carried the center of the mast-step plate on the deck. As to crushed balsa core, you will note that modern boats don't have balsa core under mast steps any more! I filled mine-- so far everywhere BUT under the mast. My H25 Mk 1 has the domed 'flush deck' cabintop, with pronounced crown forward. I drilled 1/4" holes all over where the painted areas were (because I can just fill, sand and paint over them) and then using a 3/16" dia syringe (see Gougeon products c/o Jamestown) pumped epoxy as much as I could, everywhere. I had exactly two surprise leaks (where epoxy dribbled into the boat below). Every other 'fill' hit is mark. I swear you could hold a hip-hop dance party on that deck. It's incredibly stiff (does NOT creak). This may sound like the no-brained fix, but it is the cheap fix, the easy fix, a relatively lightweight fix, and one guaranteed to solve the problem. Chopping out rotten balsa core is wasted work. If it's that HUGE of an area, add filler-- microballoons, first choice; silica (heavier) second. It's like surgery-- micro attention to local places, NOT radical open-deck surgery. (We did the same fix to a 28-year-old Cherubini 44 with a plywood deck. Same procedure, same result. No wood replacement.) You may want or need to prop the deck up a little, using something a little less robust than your basement jack, to get the deck to the right level. But really, anything even close is good enough. When the epoxy deck filler kicks off, it will be permanently wherever it is. THEN you can step your mast again with confidence. It sounds to me also like your compression post is NOT original and may be too short. I went grotesquely anal about this, fabricating a teak pad for it to stand on, atop new epoxy-saturated mahogany sole joists and making a beautiful top plate out of Honduras, rabbeted around for the foam headliner, which will catch the vang pad-eye above deck and (as its backing plate) the pad eye for the cabin lantern below. The post end is cut on a slight angle to match the cabintop sheer and, so far only dry-fitted, it goes together like a construction toy or jigsaw puzzle. Remember that dry-fitting is key-- no glue or epoxy will forgive poor fits. So far this one looks good. I'm only waiting for paint and doorway trim to install it all. You're not reinventing the wheel here. Stick to what SHOULD be there. It sounds like the blocks against the hull are all right-- if they're not rotten inside. You can inject epoxy into them if you have to. They're not going to cause keel-joint leaks. Then make sure that the post shares the load with the bulkhead. There should be NO vertical movement (or lateral) if the wood fits are adequate. So prop up the deck, fill it, make a compression post that will fit well while dry, share the loads and install it all. Remember also that as long as the load is sound and there is NO movement, a litle bit of indented deck is only cosmetic. Let me know how you do. JC 2
Pat, your best bet is to fabricate a NEW replacement post. Use white spruce (best alternative to Sitka spruce, which is the RIGHT thing, yet almost impossible to get). If not this, then evaluate the alternatives using data about the wood's suitability for compression. I would bond the post a little more to the main bulkhead than with 3 screws. Mine had about 13. I am using the same holes in the bulkhead over again (more or less). My main bulkhead has a 'deck beam' of teak about 4" wide at the peak of crown, however straight on bottom going from cabinside to cabinside. This is so well bonded to the bulkhead that replacing it is pointless. This carried the center of the mast-step plate on the deck. As to crushed balsa core, you will note that modern boats don't have balsa core under mast steps any more! I filled mine-- so far everywhere BUT under the mast. My H25 Mk 1 has the domed 'flush deck' cabintop, with pronounced crown forward. I drilled 1/4" holes all over where the painted areas were (because I can just fill, sand and paint over them) and then using a 3/16" dia syringe (see Gougeon products c/o Jamestown) pumped epoxy as much as I could, everywhere. I had exactly two surprise leaks (where epoxy dribbled into the boat below). Every other 'fill' hit is mark. I swear you could hold a hip-hop dance party on that deck. It's incredibly stiff (does NOT creak). This may sound like the no-brained fix, but it is the cheap fix, the easy fix, a relatively lightweight fix, and one guaranteed to solve the problem. Chopping out rotten balsa core is wasted work. If it's that HUGE of an area, add filler-- microballoons, first choice; silica (heavier) second. It's like surgery-- micro attention to local places, NOT radical open-deck surgery. (We did the same fix to a 28-year-old Cherubini 44 with a plywood deck. Same procedure, same result. No wood replacement.) You may want or need to prop the deck up a little, using something a little less robust than your basement jack, to get the deck to the right level. But really, anything even close is good enough. When the epoxy deck filler kicks off, it will be permanently wherever it is. THEN you can step your mast again with confidence. It sounds to me also like your compression post is NOT original and may be too short. I went grotesquely anal about this, fabricating a teak pad for it to stand on, atop new epoxy-saturated mahogany sole joists and making a beautiful top plate out of Honduras, rabbeted around for the foam headliner, which will catch the vang pad-eye above deck and (as its backing plate) the pad eye for the cabin lantern below. The post end is cut on a slight angle to match the cabintop sheer and, so far only dry-fitted, it goes together like a construction toy or jigsaw puzzle. Remember that dry-fitting is key-- no glue or epoxy will forgive poor fits. So far this one looks good. I'm only waiting for paint and doorway trim to install it all. You're not reinventing the wheel here. Stick to what SHOULD be there. It sounds like the blocks against the hull are all right-- if they're not rotten inside. You can inject epoxy into them if you have to. They're not going to cause keel-joint leaks. Then make sure that the post shares the load with the bulkhead. There should be NO vertical movement (or lateral) if the wood fits are adequate. So prop up the deck, fill it, make a compression post that will fit well while dry, share the loads and install it all. Remember also that as long as the load is sound and there is NO movement, a litle bit of indented deck is only cosmetic. Let me know how you do. JC 2
manny
I did the same fix from the deck on a 1978 h30. Turned out great. Cut everything out down to the cabin lining and filled it in with glass. Screwed my mast step down with galv bolts into the top of the pressure post. Installed 1/4" SS in the bilge to support the pressure post. Kept the pressure off the flooring.
I did the same fix from the deck on a 1978 h30. Turned out great. Cut everything out down to the cabin lining and filled it in with glass. Screwed my mast step down with galv bolts into the top of the pressure post. Installed 1/4" SS in the bilge to support the pressure post. Kept the pressure off the flooring.
mast II beam
Manny Locked the SS I beam down with West Marine apoxy. Mixed up with the thickner into the consistancy of peanut butter. Set the I beam in a big glob of it.
Manny Locked the SS I beam down with West Marine apoxy. Mixed up with the thickner into the consistancy of peanut butter. Set the I beam in a big glob of it.
I beam Install
Manny Don't know if I answered your question, a little more detail. I installed 1/4 ss I beam in place of the old iron one. Locked it down with WM apoxy. Adj it up so it came all the way up and supported the flooring above. The pressure post is on top of course. I put the mast wieght on the SS I beam not on the floor/floor stringers. Based on what I read here maybe thats not the way to go, but I'm not changing anything now for sure. In my H30 I have several SS very large keel bolts. Can't believe it won't hold up OK...guess I'll find out. The stringers just didn't appear to be designed to support that kind of wieght.. One thing I did though that I guess is good I slide in a 1/4 SS shim on top of the I beam to tighten it up to the underside of the flooring. I could take that out and then the down force would be on the I Beam and the floor stringers. Don't think I will though...
Manny Don't know if I answered your question, a little more detail. I installed 1/4 ss I beam in place of the old iron one. Locked it down with WM apoxy. Adj it up so it came all the way up and supported the flooring above. The pressure post is on top of course. I put the mast wieght on the SS I beam not on the floor/floor stringers. Based on what I read here maybe thats not the way to go, but I'm not changing anything now for sure. In my H30 I have several SS very large keel bolts. Can't believe it won't hold up OK...guess I'll find out. The stringers just didn't appear to be designed to support that kind of wieght.. One thing I did though that I guess is good I slide in a 1/4 SS shim on top of the I beam to tighten it up to the underside of the flooring. I could take that out and then the down force would be on the I Beam and the floor stringers. Don't think I will though...
Manny
the pressurre post sets on a small piece of plywood. Its only a couple inches wider than the post. The teak/holly sole lays around it. Under the plywood is the ss I beam
the pressurre post sets on a small piece of plywood. Its only a couple inches wider than the post. The teak/holly sole lays around it. Under the plywood is the ss I beam
Hey Patrick
It's funny that your step is missing the exact same bolt as mine. The port forward bolt is outside the compression post????? The two forward bolts on mine were recessed into the compression post, the rear is pretty much at the bulkhead. By the way, on the rear bolt you may have the connection for the lightning grounding cable. Also, take the post out first using a floor jack before trying to unscrew the bolts (I originally thought that the screws where lagged into the post, but they are machine screws with lock nuts underneath). My compression post is in fantastic shape. I did find out what my post sits on. It is a fiberglass encapsulated wood stringer that runs port to starboard. I originally thought the stringer was hollow and I was going to fill with something, after some exploratory drilling I found wood inside. It has definitely taken a set. For the time being, I will leave it. In a couple of years I will tear apart the sole and rebuild the area. My sag is only about a 1/4 inch at the sole, so I can live with it. As far as rebuilding the core, I had used alternating layers of roving and matt. I didn't use any fillers until I was ready to place the step in place. At that last step I used a little colloidal silica (sp?) mixed in with the West System mainly to help fill in the "pockets" and so the epoxy wasn't so runny. I'm not sure if it was a bad idea but I will find out in the spring. Hopefully someone can answer that question for you. The weather here in the northeast had been cooperating enough that I was able to put one coat of paint and nonskid to the repair area so far. I primarily did this to protect the epoxy from UV over the winter and to give me an idea of how much finish work is needed. Here's a shot of the step. BTW, Is it an optical delusion that the step looks like the front is slightly angled toward the starboard side? Manny
It's funny that your step is missing the exact same bolt as mine. The port forward bolt is outside the compression post????? The two forward bolts on mine were recessed into the compression post, the rear is pretty much at the bulkhead. By the way, on the rear bolt you may have the connection for the lightning grounding cable. Also, take the post out first using a floor jack before trying to unscrew the bolts (I originally thought that the screws where lagged into the post, but they are machine screws with lock nuts underneath). My compression post is in fantastic shape. I did find out what my post sits on. It is a fiberglass encapsulated wood stringer that runs port to starboard. I originally thought the stringer was hollow and I was going to fill with something, after some exploratory drilling I found wood inside. It has definitely taken a set. For the time being, I will leave it. In a couple of years I will tear apart the sole and rebuild the area. My sag is only about a 1/4 inch at the sole, so I can live with it. As far as rebuilding the core, I had used alternating layers of roving and matt. I didn't use any fillers until I was ready to place the step in place. At that last step I used a little colloidal silica (sp?) mixed in with the West System mainly to help fill in the "pockets" and so the epoxy wasn't so runny. I'm not sure if it was a bad idea but I will find out in the spring. Hopefully someone can answer that question for you. The weather here in the northeast had been cooperating enough that I was able to put one coat of paint and nonskid to the repair area so far. I primarily did this to protect the epoxy from UV over the winter and to give me an idea of how much finish work is needed. Here's a shot of the step. BTW, Is it an optical delusion that the step looks like the front is slightly angled toward the starboard side? Manny
Compression Post
My problem is at the post base. The stringer and sole in the head are down about an inch. I loosened the rigging and use a floor jack to lift the roof off the post. I've cut thru one layer of fiberglass in the head to find squares of plywood. Is this just a core of a sandwich construction? Bill
My problem is at the post base. The stringer and sole in the head are down about an inch. I loosened the rigging and use a floor jack to lift the roof off the post. I've cut thru one layer of fiberglass in the head to find squares of plywood. Is this just a core of a sandwich construction? Bill
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