Common Sound System Ground?

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Feb 3, 2009
292
Knysna 550 SE Knysna, South Africa
This is really an audio question, but it's for my sailboat, so I thought that perhaps I would ask it here. Right now I have plugs from various devices (DVD, Sirius, TV, SSB) coming out of a hole near my stereo and I swap plugs for whatever device I want to listen to. Not very elegant.

I want to make up a panel that a 6 position rotary switch on it for the above devices plus a BlueTooth receiver and an aux-in port. The question that I have is do I need 4 pole switch where I switch the audio channel plus the grounds or can I use a 2 pole switch where I combine all of the ground and only switch the audio channels?

-- Geoff
 
Apr 19, 2011
12
Valiant 42 Lake Texoma
The grounds are connected together at the input to your stereo. A double pole switch is ok. Just connect all the grounds together for left and a separate ground for right. Run these 2 grounds back to the respective grounds on the stereo. Do not connect the grounds to the boat. Let me know if this isn't clear.

Dan
 
Feb 3, 2009
292
Knysna 550 SE Knysna, South Africa
The output from the switch is going to 3.5mm stereo audio connector, which only has a single ground. That would imply that all of the grounds are connected. Right?

I've heard of people complaining about ground loops in audio circuits and just wanted to make sure that I'm not creating an issue by tying them all together.

-- Geoff
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
The speakers NEED to see two wires with a signal on them. Thinking of it as a ground is not a helpfull concept. if you connect the "grounds" on two speakers you get the signal from one alternating current source mixing with the other.
Remember speaker wires are a signal not power. it has the Alternating current/voltage on them.
SO yes you HAVE to keep all 4 wires (2 speakers ) separate all the way back to the unit producing the signal.
This should not be much of a problem as there are switches made for this kind of stuff. They are called source selectors
 
Feb 3, 2009
292
Knysna 550 SE Knysna, South Africa
I'm switching the Line-Out from each these devices and feeding it to the Line-In of the stereo. I am NOT switching the speaker output from these devices.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Probably ought to think about any upgrades you might want to do in the future and add those spares in now.
ALSO
the laws of electricity and the FCC do allow you to directly connect all the units and just run one at a time. FCC rule 15 is your friend. you will not hurt the units that are off by pumping a signal into them and you are probably not going to be running more than one unit at a time. course you could have the SSB on with the squelch way up so only that strong station "breaks in" over the stereo......
 
Feb 3, 2009
292
Knysna 550 SE Knysna, South Africa
I just spoke with a friend of mine who has been involved with designing consumer audio switchers and he told me that all of the grounds in these devices are tied together and it only switches the audio channels. He further recommended against switching the grounds as the ground may not be connected before the audio channel is connected.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Beware that the guru who is tying all the "grounds" together on the devices is also "only switching the audio channels"!!!!!!! We have probably confused him by using the term "ground" for the "other wire" on the audio channel. If you insist on calling it a ground you get this kind of confusion. It is a channel and needs to have both wires dedicated to it. Sharing wires allows the AC audio frequency signals to mix on the common wire and while it will not hurt anything (FCC rule 15 again) it will not sound very good. (and you will have to go rebuild your source selection switch to make it right)
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
simply, the main ground wire from each device can all be connected together and does not need to be switched....(you can, but its redundant and without benefit)
the hot/input wire from each device can be wired direct (with fuse) or put on a switch, with a fuse between the switch and the device....
any antennae or speaker circuit on any device, + or -, must be run back into the device and never be connected to an external source or ground...
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
I don't think there is an industry standard for what to call audio frequency signal wires. A common usage is "signal +" and "signal -" They are not the power return or corrosion bonding wires that should properly be called grounds. Those are DC circuits and the audio frequency signal wires are AC (with a changing frequency)
 

kenn

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Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
If you are connecting and switching line-level audio signals, as coming out of a pair of phono (aka 'RCA') jacks or a stereo 3.5mm jack, then yes you can safely tie all the grounds together and just switch the "hot' audio conductors. You may still get a loud pop or a click when switching if the volume is up.

Ditto for the 3.5mm headphone out of personal portables, iPods etc. Some of these would be happiest if there was a 100 or so ohm resistor across their output to simulate a modern headphone load.

(I was a broadcast/recording tech for 20+ years)
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
If you are connecting and switching line-level audio signals, as coming out of a pair of phono (aka 'RCA') jacks or a stereo 3.5mm jack, then yes you can safely tie all the grounds together and just switch the "hot' audio conductors. You may still get a loud pop or a click when switching if the volume is up.

Ditto for the 3.5mm headphone out of personal portables, iPods etc. Some of these would be happiest if there was a 100 or so ohm resistor across their output to simulate a modern headphone load.

(I was a broadcast/recording tech for 20+ years)
Transmitterdan, and Kenn have it right.

So you know, ground loops are an issue on the voltage supply side, usually due to either different source voltage or different ground potential between connected components. The supply voltage difference creates a current on the signal conductor, (RCA cable) that shows up as noise.

When using the headphone out on a personal audio device, you will see that the 3.5mm plug has three conductors, tip, ring, and sleeve. The aft-most metal portion of the plug, (sleeve) is a common ground, (neutral) for both left and right channels. The AC signals for the left and right audio are carried on the tip and the ring.
Note: audio is AC, so the voltage on the tip and ring swing both positive and negative; this means that the ground conductor sits in the middle of the sinusoidal audio waveform, from a voltage standpoint.

In a kit-bashed switch box, one can tie all "sleeve" conductors together in a hard-wired fashion. Then for any switching, you want a double-pole switch. For each position you will connect both the tip and the ring , (usually red and either black or white inside the sheath) to their respective connections such the both the left and right outputs come out of the switch from their respective poles. The switch prevents "MUX" summing, (paralleling) of the input sources, so you don't have the issues with parallel inputs as mentioned above.

There is some confusion in this thread as to what ground/neutral wires are appropriate to tie together. For the sake of this discussion, and limited to this discussion let me put these points out there.

Small portable devices
*If it is a line-out or headphone out from a small portable device, tying the ground/neutral wires from both channels is appropriate, as it is common and expected.
*if you want monaural sound, tying the left and right wires together is appropriate. This is ONLY the case with headphone outputs or line outputs.
*small portable devices use 3-conductor cables for stereo reproduction. If you see four conductors, stop and ask why. Most smart phones use a fourth conductor for talk-back mic but that is probably irrelevant to this conversation. FYI

12V radio speaker outputs
*It is never appropriate to parallel wire left and right 4-ohm speaker outputs from any mobile stereo. Not the positives, not the grounds. Keep all four conductors separate. Note: an isolation transformer gets you around this but that discussion is for the fourth grade class, not the first grade class... :)

Now back to the short answer...

Kenn got it right... :D
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
I just spoke with a friend of mine who has been involved with designing consumer audio switchers and he told me that all of the grounds in these devices are tied together and it only switches the audio channels. He further recommended against switching the grounds as the ground may not be connected before the audio channel is connected.
Your friend is smart. Keeping ground continuity will prevent things from blowing up. Think batt switch that can go past off......
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Beware that the guru who is tying all the "grounds" together on the devices is also "only switching the audio channels"!!!!!!! We have probably confused him by using the term "ground" for the "other wire" on the audio channel. If you insist on calling it a ground you get this kind of confusion. It is a channel and needs to have both wires dedicated to it. Sharing wires allows the AC audio frequency signals to mix on the common wire and while it will not hurt anything (FCC rule 15 again) it will not sound very good. (and you will have to go rebuild your source selection switch to make it right)
Bill, see posts above. I respectfully suggest that confusion re: "what is connecting to what" is leading to the confusion. In the OP's context, tying the "grounds" together for small devices connecting to the radio's aux input is totally appropriate as they are summed/paralleled at the source component already.

By the way, if one wanted to dabble in the original '60's surround sound, consider the voltage potential that exists between L+ and R+..... I would lead you further, but it is a basic math equation. With speaker grounds totally disconnected from everything, most old amps and some new amps allow a speaker or speakers to be connected between L+ and R+.......
 
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Apr 19, 2011
12
Valiant 42 Lake Texoma
The output from the switch is going to 3.5mm stereo audio connector, which only has a single ground. That would imply that all of the grounds are connected. Right?
Right.

I've heard of people complaining about ground loops in audio circuits and just wanted to make sure that I'm not creating an issue by tying them all together.

-- Geoff
Keep all the wires including ground wires as short as possible. For best results use the largest wire you can fit easily. Ground loops are usually more of a problem with high gain microphone circuits. I think your setup will work well.

A previous poster talked about FCC "rule 15". There is a part of the FCC regulations called "Part 15". But this has almost nothing to do with audio wiring. It is to help ensure that consumer and industrial devices in close proximity to one another do not interfere with each other wirelessly or through manufacturer supplied cabling. Part 15 regulations do not apply when you start connecting devices together as you plan to do. Neither do these regulations ensure success. In other words, don't worry about the FCC.

I think the main problem you will have is unequal audio levels from each device. So when you switch sources you will probably have to adjust the volume quite a bit. If this turns into a nuisance there are some simple steps to resolve that. Feel free to ask how if it is an issue.

Regards,
Dan
 
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