I have a new 356 coming that will have two 4d batteries as seperate house banks. I will be adding a Balmar 100 amp alternator and a seperate Group 27 dedicated start battery. I am planning on using a Pathmaker combiner in the charging system. The boat will have a Heart Fredom 20 inverter/charger at 100 amps charging also. Several questions are coming up for me. 1. What size Pathmaker? Seems like the 100 amp model might be just a little small. 2. Is there any problem combining the two 4d's with the group 27? All will be the same type (AGM). I read somewhere that a better way to do this is with an Echo Charger. Any advice welcome. 3. If I combine all three banks, will the smart regulator on the Balmar know not to overcharge the starter battery while trying to charge up a house battery? Or is the distribution of the power automatically in relation to the discharge of each individual battery? 4. The Freedom Marine Inverter monitor will look at the two house banks. I suppose that I will need to add a Link 10 or something to monitor the status of the starter battery? I know these are somewhat technical questions. Hoping someone out there with a similar system will be able to help. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
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Couple of answers, I think
The echo charge is the way to go for the starting battery. It should have an isolator anyway. There should be no problem with the different size batteries if you use the echo charge. You know, I have a similar layout and simply ignore the monitoring of the starting battery since it is isolated and never in the house stream anyway. I have checked it periodically, and it is always topped off. Good luck. Sounds like a good set up. Rick D.
The echo charge is the way to go for the starting battery. It should have an isolator anyway. There should be no problem with the different size batteries if you use the echo charge. You know, I have a similar layout and simply ignore the monitoring of the starting battery since it is isolated and never in the house stream anyway. I have checked it periodically, and it is always topped off. Good luck. Sounds like a good set up. Rick D.
Dual Output Alternator
Hi, Dan! If you are considering a 100 amp Balmar and a battery combiner, you might give at least a passing thought to getting a dual output alternator. The dual output alternator will charge two battery banks separately and independently without combiners or other components. We have this system and we think it's great. The two alternator outputs are wired directly to the batteries; one to the house bank and the other to the starter battery. No combiner and the battery switch is completely "out of the loop" for charging. It's simpler and has fewer thing to go wrong than the combiner approach. It all depends on how you want to set your banks up. Good luck. Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
Hi, Dan! If you are considering a 100 amp Balmar and a battery combiner, you might give at least a passing thought to getting a dual output alternator. The dual output alternator will charge two battery banks separately and independently without combiners or other components. We have this system and we think it's great. The two alternator outputs are wired directly to the batteries; one to the house bank and the other to the starter battery. No combiner and the battery switch is completely "out of the loop" for charging. It's simpler and has fewer thing to go wrong than the combiner approach. It all depends on how you want to set your banks up. Good luck. Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
Dual Output
Carl and Jule, Thanks for the response. I have considered the dual output option. I actually have three banks. Two house and the starter, so the combiner could still be helpful. The more focused concern I have is the regulation of the alternator off of a house battery causing an overcharge situation on the starter. That seems to be the rational for several people telling me to use the echo charger. The literature on this on the internet is plentiful, but not necessarily helpful. The Pathmaker manual shows three battery banks combined, but is silent on if these need to be the same capacity, and what happens when one battery issignificantly more discharged than the rest (as would occur when using a single house battery while at anchor and then starting the engine the next morning). I want to be as nice as possible to these batteries. To bad the pros and even more so, the manufacturers, don;t put more definitive information on their websites. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
Carl and Jule, Thanks for the response. I have considered the dual output option. I actually have three banks. Two house and the starter, so the combiner could still be helpful. The more focused concern I have is the regulation of the alternator off of a house battery causing an overcharge situation on the starter. That seems to be the rational for several people telling me to use the echo charger. The literature on this on the internet is plentiful, but not necessarily helpful. The Pathmaker manual shows three battery banks combined, but is silent on if these need to be the same capacity, and what happens when one battery issignificantly more discharged than the rest (as would occur when using a single house battery while at anchor and then starting the engine the next morning). I want to be as nice as possible to these batteries. To bad the pros and even more so, the manufacturers, don;t put more definitive information on their websites. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
Give them a call
The pros and manufacturers will generally be very helpful if you give them a call. Call Xantrex technical support. Generally the combiner will disconnect the two or three banks (depending on which model you install) when the voltage to the house bank gets to a certain preset(adjustable) voltage. There are 3 voltage settings on the combiner, low voltage disconnect, connect, and high voltage disconnect. You cannot force feed amps into the start battery once it is full. The danger is exposing it to a voltage higher than it can handle. Since the start battery is rarely discharged to a large extent, set the high voltage disconnect to the accept voltage of your house bank, say 14.5V for AGM. When the alternator reaches this point for bulk charging, the pathmaker will disconnect and separate the batteries, protecting the start unit from high voltage. When the house bank is charged and the voltage drops to the float point and is still charging, after a long motor period, the batteries will again be connected at this float voltage. When the source is gone, say at anchor, and the voltage drops below 13V from a load, the batteries are again disconnected to protect the start battery. Why are you setting up your 2 4D batteries as separate banks?
The pros and manufacturers will generally be very helpful if you give them a call. Call Xantrex technical support. Generally the combiner will disconnect the two or three banks (depending on which model you install) when the voltage to the house bank gets to a certain preset(adjustable) voltage. There are 3 voltage settings on the combiner, low voltage disconnect, connect, and high voltage disconnect. You cannot force feed amps into the start battery once it is full. The danger is exposing it to a voltage higher than it can handle. Since the start battery is rarely discharged to a large extent, set the high voltage disconnect to the accept voltage of your house bank, say 14.5V for AGM. When the alternator reaches this point for bulk charging, the pathmaker will disconnect and separate the batteries, protecting the start unit from high voltage. When the house bank is charged and the voltage drops to the float point and is still charging, after a long motor period, the batteries will again be connected at this float voltage. When the source is gone, say at anchor, and the voltage drops below 13V from a load, the batteries are again disconnected to protect the start battery. Why are you setting up your 2 4D batteries as separate banks?
Share Your Concerns
Hi, Dan! We have those lovely expensive AGM's too, and we share all of your concerns. Our understanding (anyone following this thread who knows otherwise please chime in) is that, although they work very differently, both the battery combiner and the dual output alternator end up doing much the same thing, which is at any point in time feeding whichever battery bank is at the lower voltage. Once both banks are at the same voltage, the combiner links the two banks together while the dual output alternator goes back-and-forth (very fast) between the two. If I have this correct, then the less-discharged battery is "protected" from the strong charging that the more-discharged battery demands. The back-up protection is the multi-stage "smart" charger (we got the Balmar Max Charge) which is programmed so that even during a bulk charge stage the voltage never goes high enough to fry whatever type of battery that you have. Whatever you decide to do, pay the money for a good regulator!! We went the dual output route for what we perceived as simplicity; alternator direct-wired to both battery banks and fewer separate components to yield to Murphy's Law. Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
Hi, Dan! We have those lovely expensive AGM's too, and we share all of your concerns. Our understanding (anyone following this thread who knows otherwise please chime in) is that, although they work very differently, both the battery combiner and the dual output alternator end up doing much the same thing, which is at any point in time feeding whichever battery bank is at the lower voltage. Once both banks are at the same voltage, the combiner links the two banks together while the dual output alternator goes back-and-forth (very fast) between the two. If I have this correct, then the less-discharged battery is "protected" from the strong charging that the more-discharged battery demands. The back-up protection is the multi-stage "smart" charger (we got the Balmar Max Charge) which is programmed so that even during a bulk charge stage the voltage never goes high enough to fry whatever type of battery that you have. Whatever you decide to do, pay the money for a good regulator!! We went the dual output route for what we perceived as simplicity; alternator direct-wired to both battery banks and fewer separate components to yield to Murphy's Law. Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
Seperate banks
Bill, The two 4d batteries will come set up as seperate banks. Each one hooks to a battery switch that hooks it to the inverter charger. Hunter calls it an inverter selector switch. I'm adding the starter battery. Currently, Hunter uses one of the 4d's as the starter battery. Additionally, I like the idea of being able to isolate each battery. That way, if one battery in a two battery bank has a problem, I don't necessarily loose everything. And since it is already wired that way, just makes sense to leave it alone. Calling the manufacturer makes sense. Dan Jonas
Bill, The two 4d batteries will come set up as seperate banks. Each one hooks to a battery switch that hooks it to the inverter charger. Hunter calls it an inverter selector switch. I'm adding the starter battery. Currently, Hunter uses one of the 4d's as the starter battery. Additionally, I like the idea of being able to isolate each battery. That way, if one battery in a two battery bank has a problem, I don't necessarily loose everything. And since it is already wired that way, just makes sense to leave it alone. Calling the manufacturer makes sense. Dan Jonas
My 2¢
1. Colin Foster is a regular contributor on the Cruising World bulletin board and is the builder for the combiner offered through West Marine. He has commented that the published ratings are extremely conservative and that the larger of the two combiners can easily handle banks of well over 400 amps. Keep in mind that you won't actually be sending 400 amps through the combiner while doing normal charging unless something is really wrong. 2. I would also question the utility of seperating your house bank. If you're going to wait until you've depleted both banks before charging just be doing alot of needless switching compared to having a single bank. If you charge each bank as you deplete it you'll be charging twice as often, not an attractive thing unless you enjoy listeniong to your diesel more often at anchor. If you want the ability to seperate the banks easily just use a 1/2/both switch and leave on both until you need to take one out of the loop. Don't automatically assume that the guys at the factory put in the best arrangement for how you'll be using the boat. 3. If you go to the Balmar site it will tell you that while you don't need two regulators for two banks (or three for three!) you will run the sensing wire from your house bank since it will be the one that the regulator will need to "know about" for the stages of charging. Basically the starter bank which will rarely get discharged is just along for the ride and will only accept what it can. At a higher state of charge it won't take amperage put to it by the alternator which is working to charge the house banks. I would be a little concerned by the higher voltages at the bulk stage as mentioned in an earlier post but I'm not sure about that one. It's one of several reasons why I think the combiner is the way to go with it's high voltage cutout. 4. You could put in a monitor for the starter bank but I think it would be a waste of money. Some comments I got when I broached this same subject on another board: 1.The dual ouput diodes on the Balmar alternator are probably not nearly as robust as the combiner contacts. Colin reports that he's had exactly one combiner returned with around 10,000 on the market! (By the way, I have no affiliation.) 2. If you ever add a single source charge mechanism like wind gen or solar you'd have to add switches to get it to all your banks. The combiner would take care of all that for you. Good luck!
1. Colin Foster is a regular contributor on the Cruising World bulletin board and is the builder for the combiner offered through West Marine. He has commented that the published ratings are extremely conservative and that the larger of the two combiners can easily handle banks of well over 400 amps. Keep in mind that you won't actually be sending 400 amps through the combiner while doing normal charging unless something is really wrong. 2. I would also question the utility of seperating your house bank. If you're going to wait until you've depleted both banks before charging just be doing alot of needless switching compared to having a single bank. If you charge each bank as you deplete it you'll be charging twice as often, not an attractive thing unless you enjoy listeniong to your diesel more often at anchor. If you want the ability to seperate the banks easily just use a 1/2/both switch and leave on both until you need to take one out of the loop. Don't automatically assume that the guys at the factory put in the best arrangement for how you'll be using the boat. 3. If you go to the Balmar site it will tell you that while you don't need two regulators for two banks (or three for three!) you will run the sensing wire from your house bank since it will be the one that the regulator will need to "know about" for the stages of charging. Basically the starter bank which will rarely get discharged is just along for the ride and will only accept what it can. At a higher state of charge it won't take amperage put to it by the alternator which is working to charge the house banks. I would be a little concerned by the higher voltages at the bulk stage as mentioned in an earlier post but I'm not sure about that one. It's one of several reasons why I think the combiner is the way to go with it's high voltage cutout. 4. You could put in a monitor for the starter bank but I think it would be a waste of money. Some comments I got when I broached this same subject on another board: 1.The dual ouput diodes on the Balmar alternator are probably not nearly as robust as the combiner contacts. Colin reports that he's had exactly one combiner returned with around 10,000 on the market! (By the way, I have no affiliation.) 2. If you ever add a single source charge mechanism like wind gen or solar you'd have to add switches to get it to all your banks. The combiner would take care of all that for you. Good luck!
Check the cable connections
On my Passage42, the inverter draw switch is just that. It only controls what battery the inverter draws from or charges. The terminals of that switch are multipled to another pair of toggle circuit breaker switches that actually control which battery gets to the distribution panel. I changed the wiring on our boat to parallel connect both 8Ds as a single large battery for the reasons previously cited. Each battery is individually fused with a 250A fuse at the positive terminal. Also, the Heart combiner will direct current to whatever battery is connected to terminal VB1, presumably the house bank, until that battery's voltage has reached the "connect voltage". At that time, it will connect any other battery connected to terminals VB2, and VB3 if you have the three battery unit and 2 house banks plus a start, for charging. When the charge source is gone, the batteries are disconnected from one another.
On my Passage42, the inverter draw switch is just that. It only controls what battery the inverter draws from or charges. The terminals of that switch are multipled to another pair of toggle circuit breaker switches that actually control which battery gets to the distribution panel. I changed the wiring on our boat to parallel connect both 8Ds as a single large battery for the reasons previously cited. Each battery is individually fused with a 250A fuse at the positive terminal. Also, the Heart combiner will direct current to whatever battery is connected to terminal VB1, presumably the house bank, until that battery's voltage has reached the "connect voltage". At that time, it will connect any other battery connected to terminals VB2, and VB3 if you have the three battery unit and 2 house banks plus a start, for charging. When the charge source is gone, the batteries are disconnected from one another.
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