COLREGs "right-of-way"

Jackdaw · Oct 1, 2015

'Right of Way' is primarily a RACING concept. Where according to the rules you are allowed as the 'privileged' boat to go wherever you want, as long as you give the other (burdened) boat enough time to react (measured in seconds).

COLREGS and IWR turn this concept around. Designed for larger boats, the privileged boat is 'STAND ON', meaning it should maintain course. The burdened boat must make a clear and early maneuver to GIVE WAY.

The models are totally different, and for good reason.

Interesting to note that for safety reasons many offshore racing SIs make racers switch to COLREGS after dark.

EDIT - I use the terms 'burdened' and 'privileged' as concepts to describe opposite parts of a rule/regulation, and not as the older COLREGS terms. I tried to think of better works, but could not!

Maine Sail · Oct 1, 2015

charliegrau said:
I have noticed in many forums and discussions the use of the term "right-of-way". I reviewed the COLREGS and found that they use the term, and confer "right of way", in only two situations: In inland waters where a downbound, downcurrent vessel has right of way over an upbound, upcurrent vessel...rules 9 and 14. The rest of the time the COLREGS set down responsibilites. It seems to me it would be beneficial to discourage use of the term right of way since in most cases no one has an entitlement to anything...only resposibilities as the stand on or give way vessel. Thoughts?

A-freaking-men!!!!!

This is one of my biggest pet peeves... If you want me to turn into the Swedish Chef from Sesame Street on you; ""Børk! Børk! Børk, Børk, Børk...", where I tune you out, and mentally move on, utter the words "and I had right of way" in a conversation.....

Good luck though changing the mentality of the under educated.

The mass public, who does not understand the rules, insist on using the term "Right of Way" probably because they think they have one......

This is from a document I have from the USNI (US Naval Institute)

"First, back in the day, vessels were designated as "privileged" and "burdened." The privileged boat would hold her course and speed and the burdened boat would take "early and substantial" action to avoid the collision. What the Coast Guard noticed through court cases though was that skippers involved in collisions would claim that they had "the right of way" or that they had "privileges." This implied something that doesn’t exist in The Rules – that you have no affirmative obligation to avoid a collision at sea, no matter how much "in the right" you are. So, The Rules were changed to remove this unintended subtlety. Just about every reference to the term "right of way" was removed from The Rules and the terms "privileged" and "burdened" were changed to "stand-on" and "give-way," respectively."

JohnVTX · Oct 1, 2015

I am a day sailor from a marina mainly on a lake. Only race on occasion. I like my boat and my family. I am going to get the heck out of your way. What is the point? 3 minutes out of my life, or a damaged boat or worse....

Kings Gambit · Oct 1, 2015

JohnVTX said:
I am a day sailor from a marina mainly on a lake. Only race on occasion. I like my boat and my family. I am going to get the heck out of your way. What is the point? 3 minutes out of my life, or a damaged boat or worse....

The point is that the oncoming vessel needs to know what "you're" going to do in a potential crossing situation. The rules undoubtedly are mostly for commerical vessels which cannot always stop or turn quickly. However, if you're going to "avoid everybody" let it be known to the oncoming vessel far in advance of the crossing. Don't just try to dart "out of the way" in the last few seconds when an oncoming vessel is expecting you to hold (i.e., stand on) your course and is on a course to avoid you.

JohnVTX · Oct 1, 2015

Kings Gambit said:
The point is that the oncoming vessel needs to know what "you're" going to do in a potential crossing situation. The rules undoubtedly are mostly for commerical vessels which cannot always stop or turn quickly. However, if you're going to "avoid everybody" let it be known to the oncoming vessel far in advance of the crossing. Don't just try to dart out of the way in the last few seconds when an oncoming vessel is expecting you to hold (i.e., stand on) your course.

Thanks, but I am aware of the rules. I get out of the way early.

Warren Milberg · Oct 1, 2015

Over years of sailing, it has become clear to me that many other boaters, be they power or sail, do not have a clue as to rules of the road. This may be due to the fact that all one needs to drive a recreational boat of almost any size is the money to pay for it. No demonstration of skill or knowledge of safety rules required. I always assume the worst when in a crossing situation. So I turn away, and turn away early.

oldlaxer1 · Oct 1, 2015

Warren Milberg said:
Over years of sailing, it has become clear to me that many other boaters, be they power or sail, do not have a clue as to rules of the road. This may be due to the fact that all one needs to drive a recreational boat of almost any size is the money to pay for it. No demonstration of skill or knowledge of safety rules required. I always assume the worst when in a crossing situation. So I turn away, and turn away early.

I learned that even when you turn, you should turn early. This happened in a crossing situation in a 6 mph channel (Baltimore Harbor) with a big go fast power boat with the shirtless skipper and his keg of a beer belly hanging out with the requisite blonde "deck hardware" at his side. I am the stand on vessel as I am under full sail. All he has to do is give it a little gas and he's by me. but he doesn't so i bear off and take his stern. He proceeds to call me a F...ing Ahole. I calmly reply he should take a look at the rules of the road and he threatens to come back and "teach me about the f...ing rules of the road.
I guess I got too close to his prized possession and he felt the need to show off for Bambi.
Hell, I wasn't even that close. He should be the start boat for one of our races to see what close is like!

Benny17441 · Oct 1, 2015

That is a well known observation but most people are familiar with term and it will continue to be used in general conversation. They just need to understand the concept that "right of way" cannot be claimed or taken by one but needs to be granted by the other party. Start talking about "responsibilities" and they will tune you out.

Chris Patterson · Oct 2, 2015

The cemetery is full of people with the right-of-way..

Gene Neill · Oct 2, 2015

I don't use the term "right of way", but not because I think it's entirely inappropriate or inapplicable, but rather, because it marks you as a dummy or a noob, like referring to the "left" or "right" side of a vessel, or calling the deck the "topsides".

Everyone with a driver's license knows (or SHOULD know) that "right of way" is GIVEN, never TAKEN. Now, in my tiny little flea brain, there is very little daylight between this state of affairs and being "privileged", where one still bears the full responsibility of doing whatever is necessary to avoid a collision.

Again, I never use the term, because I don't want to appear even more ignorant than I am. But it certainly doesn't annoy me when other people do, provided they are at least getting the rule right. They can call it "diplomatic immunity" for all I care, as long as they don't endanger my vessel or anyone else's.

Plus, it gives me an opportunity to feel like my knowledge is superior to someone else's, for once. :dance:

Jackdaw · Oct 2, 2015

Benny17441 said:
That is a well known observation but most people are familiar with term and it will continue to be used in general conversation. They just need to understand the concept that "right of way" cannot be claimed or taken by one but needs to be granted by the other party. Start talking about "responsibilities" and they will tune you out.

I'm not sure what you could mean by this. Quite the opposite, the navigation rules are designed to give clear and unambiguous rights and obligations to all boats without communications or assignment 'by the other party'.

Indeed, basis of the entire system working is both boats DOING WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.

Maine Sail · Oct 2, 2015

Jackdaw said:
I'm not sure what you could mean by this. Quite the opposite, the navigation rules are designed to give clear and unambiguous rightsand obligations to all boats without communications or assignment 'by the other party'.

Indeed, basis of the entire system working is both boats DOING WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.

NO THEY DO NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please read the regs and UNDERSTAND THEM...:cussing::cussing::cussing:

Thinking in terms of, and incessantly repeating the term "rights", only serves to get folks in trouble.

Jackdaw · Oct 2, 2015

Maine Sail said:
NO THEY DO NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please read the regs and UNDERSTAND THEM...:cussing::cussing::cussing:

Thinking in terms of, and incessantly repeating the term "rights", only serves to get folks in trouble.

Maine, you are over-analyzing the words. We're saying the same thing.

I uses the word RIGHTS as part of a the term 'rights and obligations' that describe a set of actions and responsibilities that the boats have to take under the rules. I understand and agree your dis-approval of the the word 'rights' to imply a grant to take any action, but that's clearly not what I'm talking about. You should know me better than that!

Maine Sail · Oct 2, 2015

Jackdaw said:
Maine, you are over-analyzing the words. We're saying the same thing.

I uses the word RIGHTS as part of a the term 'rights and obligations' that describe a set of actions and responsibilities that the boats have to take under the rules. I understand and agree your dis-approval of the the word 'rights' to imply a grant to take any action, but that's clearly not what I'm talking about. You should know me better than that!

I do know you better than that and this is what makes it even more frustrating when the seasoned veterans of sailing can't even use the correct terminology. How do we expect newbs to understand that they DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS if we the seasoned vets continue using incorrect terminology that is NOT CONVEYED in the COLREGS....

You are either give-way or stand-on unless it becomes clear the other boater does not know the rules then you AVOID COLLISION.

I believe firmly that using the term rights, is simply an unwise move by folks who should be setting a good example, especially for the newcomers to the sport.....

The authorities learned this LONG AGO and physically removed the terms privileged and burdened because so many idiots took "privileged" to mean RIGHTS....

woodster · Oct 2, 2015

the way i see the color regs is it's like a handbook of what not to do and has no entitlement whatsoever ...so far everything in it has caused me to have to correct something at every turn and no where in there have i seen it tell me that something is ok...nor have i seen alternates regarding anything involved......it's sorta like reading your bible for answers you can choose the solution or guidelines or ignore it and maybe get by or pay the consequences.......as they say ignorance is bliss ...until you get to court

dhays · Oct 2, 2015

Any question about the maneuvering rules eventually comes down to lots of folks reminding everyone that no boat had the right of way. The OP may be new to boating forums or he would have seen countless, never ending threads on the subject.

I don't mind the "rules of the road" threads any more than I do the coffee or anchor threads. I learn a lot by reading them. I gain insight from others experience and often am reminded of rules that I seldom have occasion to think of.

Also, as an aside, I have been frequenting a Trawler forum (I may go to the dark side as I age and have more back problems) and the power boat folks have the same complaints and arguments. They universally feel that us "rag boaters" don't know, don't understand, and never follow the COLREGS. I am determined to always prove that assumption wrong on the water. Part of that has been to start to pay attention to the appropriate sound signals in the COLREGS. Like many sailors, I don't have a horn button by my wheel, but large power boaters do and they like to use them. Turns out, often they are using them to communicate intent and I always thought they were just being friendly.

Maine Sail · Oct 2, 2015

dhays said:
Also, as an aside, I have been frequenting a Trawler forum (I may go to the dark side as I age and have more back problems) and the power boat folks have the same complaints and arguments. They universally feel that us "rag boaters" don't know, don't understand, and never follow the COLREGS. I am determined to always prove that assumption wrong on the water. Part of that has been to start to pay attention to the appropriate sound signals in the COLREGS. Like many sailors, I don't have a horn button by my wheel, but large power boaters do and they like to use them. Turns out, often they are using them to communicate intent and I always thought they were just being friendly.

To be honest I tend to agree with them and I know far more power boaters who actually have a better understanding of the COLREGS than I do sailors, and I know piles more sailors than I do power boaters. Sad really.....

Kings Gambit · Oct 2, 2015

dhays said:
Any question about the maneuvering rules eventually comes down to lots of folks reminding everyone that no boat had the right of way. The OP may be new to boating forums or he would have seen countless, never ending threads on the subject.

I don't mind the "rules of the road" threads any more than I do the coffee or anchor threads. I learn a lot by reading them. I gain insight from others experience and often am reminded of rules that I seldom have occasion to think of.
.

Here's one for you. So, we're doing an overnight run from Ventura to San Diego, passing off Avalon around midnight. At this point we were power sailing (jib and diesel) so our steaming light was on in addition to the other running lights. A towing vessel was approaching us on our stardboard side [we see his red portside light]. To be sure of what it was I fetched up my handy [required aboard] Navigation Rules handbook and identifed it as a towing vessel with a tow less than 200 m astern. Fine. We're slowing down to allow him to pass ahead when he begins to turn toward us. Now we see red & green straddling the two white mast lights stacked vertically. A bit later see only the starboard side light angling toward us. It seems he's going out of his way to go around us by passing us "close" astern. So I hail the skipper on VHF 16 and identify myself as the sailboat off his starboard bow and ask his intentions. Taking me astern, etc.; "thanks for the call." So--the example from his point of view: "I'm assuming this sailboater has no idea of COLREGS, so I'm altering course to go around him tow and all." This, even though he was the stand-on vessel. I would have liked it much better if he had followed the rules that HE KNEW!! With all this second guessing going on, nobody knows what anybody else is going to do even if they know the rules!!

Jackdaw · Oct 2, 2015

Maine Sail said:
To be honest I tend to agree with them and I know far more power boaters who actually have a better understanding of the COLREGS than I do sailors, and I know piles more sailors than I do power boaters. Sad really.....

Indeed. Many sailor assume they are at the top of the priority stack, when in fact we are one from the bottom.

1. Not Under Command
2. Restricted Ability to Maneuver
3. Constrained by Draft
4. Fishing
5. Sail
6. Motor