A few months ago I received my documentation certificate for our new boat. As with our last boat the information on the certificate regarding length, depth and breadth is different then the acutal numbers. As an example the loa of our Hunter 44 AC is 43' 1 1/2", the CG certificate shows it as 41.8, the hull depth is 5' and the CG certficate shows it at 10', the breath is 14' 6" and CG certificate shows it as 14'. The certificate on our previous boat a H 356 had similar descrepancies. When I questioned the documentation service they explainted the CG uses a different formular to calculate these numbers. They also show the boat as having a gross tonnage of 29 and a net of 26. Can anyone shed some light on how and or why they do it like this? Thank you, Bob S/V Kathryn, Stamford, Ct
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Tonnage is volumetric
I wouldn't attach much importance to the minor differences of dimension--they may be applying measurements customary for commercial purposes rather than racing formulae--but the tonnage always causes confusion. They are using volumetric measure for this, meaning the capacity of the hull if you scooped out all the innerds up to the deck and filled it with rice or whatever. I believe 10 volumetric tons is the minimum for documentation and for sailboats that translates into a 26-footer or larger. Unless you plan to take the boat outside US waters I don't think you'll find the documentation process worth the money. It doesn't completely relieve you of having to display your state numbers (in Connecticut we still have to place our renewal sticker on the bow, even if we're documented).
I wouldn't attach much importance to the minor differences of dimension--they may be applying measurements customary for commercial purposes rather than racing formulae--but the tonnage always causes confusion. They are using volumetric measure for this, meaning the capacity of the hull if you scooped out all the innerds up to the deck and filled it with rice or whatever. I believe 10 volumetric tons is the minimum for documentation and for sailboats that translates into a 26-footer or larger. Unless you plan to take the boat outside US waters I don't think you'll find the documentation process worth the money. It doesn't completely relieve you of having to display your state numbers (in Connecticut we still have to place our renewal sticker on the bow, even if we're documented).
Mine, too!
I have often wondered the same. Even when I have changed the info on the renewal form, it hasn't been changed. I just figured that it was another beaucratic step that is ignored.
I have often wondered the same. Even when I have changed the info on the renewal form, it hasn't been changed. I just figured that it was another beaucratic step that is ignored.
Internet Response
I stole this off the internet: "US Coast Guard documentation provides a history and record of build and ownership for the vessel owner. This history is maintained at the Coast Guard and is provided upon request in the form of an Abstract of Title, reflecting all recorded ownership transfers, mortgage recordings, claims of lien and releases. This allows a boater to sell his boat, and a buyer to buy that boat, and be assured it is free and clear of all recorded liens and encumbrances. When Financing Your boat, lenders rely on the USCG records of documented vessels to confirm their security interest will be perfected by a First Preferred Ship Mortgage recorded with the Coast Guard. Generally boats that are in excess of 26' can have a Coast Guard Documentation performed. The Coast Guard has developed a measurement formula that determines gross and net tonnage using the length, breadth, and depth of the vessel, and those boats with a measurement of 5 net tons or more can be documented. There are no further restrictions for pleasure boats operating under a recreational endorsement, however vessels operating in the commercial trade must be built in the United States." So far the only benefit I have received is not having to put CA State Registration numbers on the bow. The biggest headache is dealing with their bureacracy.
I stole this off the internet: "US Coast Guard documentation provides a history and record of build and ownership for the vessel owner. This history is maintained at the Coast Guard and is provided upon request in the form of an Abstract of Title, reflecting all recorded ownership transfers, mortgage recordings, claims of lien and releases. This allows a boater to sell his boat, and a buyer to buy that boat, and be assured it is free and clear of all recorded liens and encumbrances. When Financing Your boat, lenders rely on the USCG records of documented vessels to confirm their security interest will be perfected by a First Preferred Ship Mortgage recorded with the Coast Guard. Generally boats that are in excess of 26' can have a Coast Guard Documentation performed. The Coast Guard has developed a measurement formula that determines gross and net tonnage using the length, breadth, and depth of the vessel, and those boats with a measurement of 5 net tons or more can be documented. There are no further restrictions for pleasure boats operating under a recreational endorsement, however vessels operating in the commercial trade must be built in the United States." So far the only benefit I have received is not having to put CA State Registration numbers on the bow. The biggest headache is dealing with their bureacracy.
The dimensions are provided by the
manufacturer. The length of your hull is listed on Hunter's web site as 42.1' length, 14.01' beam and 5' or 6'6" draft. The Coast Guard dimensions are length X beam X depth from the top of the hull (gunwale) to the bottom of the bilge / 100 minus a percentage of the total to allow for machinery spaces. All this equals the Registered tonnage. The forms may be found at http://www.uscg.mil/hq/msc/t3/cg5397/cg5397.doc
manufacturer. The length of your hull is listed on Hunter's web site as 42.1' length, 14.01' beam and 5' or 6'6" draft. The Coast Guard dimensions are length X beam X depth from the top of the hull (gunwale) to the bottom of the bilge / 100 minus a percentage of the total to allow for machinery spaces. All this equals the Registered tonnage. The forms may be found at http://www.uscg.mil/hq/msc/t3/cg5397/cg5397.doc
Tonnage
The minimum net tonnage is 5 tons. A Cat 27 just barely makes it (5.1 tons) but your Hunter 44 will meet the documentation tonnage requirement with no problem.
The minimum net tonnage is 5 tons. A Cat 27 just barely makes it (5.1 tons) but your Hunter 44 will meet the documentation tonnage requirement with no problem.
somebody is blowing smoke in our eyes...
Sorry about the error on the tonnage--I believe Garry is right about it being 5, not 10. I wish tks had provided us with a link to where those paragraphs came from, but the stuff about loans and liens sounds like the kind of party-line baloney lenders want you to believe. When I bought my boat with a loan and registered it in my home state the expired Coast Guard documentation was not the slightest problem in my getting the loan, and my home state (Connecticut) wouldn't even accept the Coast Guard certificate of title for purposes of registration--they only wanted to see a state title. The documentation papers didn't show any history of previous ownership--If I hadn't been provided by my p.o. with a photocopy of the old Coast Guard title I wouldn't have had any info on prior owners. Whoever wrote those paragraphs wants you to believe that Coast Guard documentation is a vital component in the boat buying process, but my experience is that it ain't so...
Sorry about the error on the tonnage--I believe Garry is right about it being 5, not 10. I wish tks had provided us with a link to where those paragraphs came from, but the stuff about loans and liens sounds like the kind of party-line baloney lenders want you to believe. When I bought my boat with a loan and registered it in my home state the expired Coast Guard documentation was not the slightest problem in my getting the loan, and my home state (Connecticut) wouldn't even accept the Coast Guard certificate of title for purposes of registration--they only wanted to see a state title. The documentation papers didn't show any history of previous ownership--If I hadn't been provided by my p.o. with a photocopy of the old Coast Guard title I wouldn't have had any info on prior owners. Whoever wrote those paragraphs wants you to believe that Coast Guard documentation is a vital component in the boat buying process, but my experience is that it ain't so...
That's your experience
My bank financing required Coast Guard documentation. The requirements vary. Lenders have the right to make their own polices, and we have a right to choose our lenders. Basic documentation history is available at the Vessel search site. (Link below) The documentation seems to provide extra protection of the asset for the banks. From the US Coastguard National Vessel Documentation Center; "A preferred mortgage is a mortgage which is given status as a maritime lien. As such it enjoys a certain priority in the event of default. In addition, the Coast Guard is prohibited from making certain changes in documentation including, but not limited to, change of vessel ownership, name, and hailing port without consent of the mortgagee. For this reason many financial institutions require vessels which are eligible for documentation to be documented and to have preferred mortgages recorded against them. Most documentation information is found here. http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/faq.htm I'm just happy not having to display state registration numbers on my hull (in my state).
My bank financing required Coast Guard documentation. The requirements vary. Lenders have the right to make their own polices, and we have a right to choose our lenders. Basic documentation history is available at the Vessel search site. (Link below) The documentation seems to provide extra protection of the asset for the banks. From the US Coastguard National Vessel Documentation Center; "A preferred mortgage is a mortgage which is given status as a maritime lien. As such it enjoys a certain priority in the event of default. In addition, the Coast Guard is prohibited from making certain changes in documentation including, but not limited to, change of vessel ownership, name, and hailing port without consent of the mortgagee. For this reason many financial institutions require vessels which are eligible for documentation to be documented and to have preferred mortgages recorded against them. Most documentation information is found here. http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/faq.htm I'm just happy not having to display state registration numbers on my hull (in my state).
A fun look a the history of vessel tonnage
Tonnage has nothing to do with the weight of your boat. It is a measure of how much wine a vessel can carry. The word "tun" was originally a size of a cask used to ship wine from Spain & Portugal to England. In 1347 a tax of 3 shillings per tun was imposed and this was called "tonnage." A ship's size became known by the number of casks it could carry, and the word tonnage started being used to describe a ship's size. It was found that if you took the length x the breadth x the depth of the hold under the deck and divided by 100 it was close to the number of casks. That is where we get the "Measurement ton" of 100 cubic feet per ton. There are several kinds of tonnage: The first two are used by the tax collector. The next two are used by designers. The fifth and sixth are used by freight salesmen and canal operators and the last one is used by the USCG for documenting boats. Gross Tonnage - is the internal volume in cubic feet of the vessel minus certain spaces above the main or "tonnage" deck, like stacks and ventilators, which are called "exemptions" . Net Registered Tonnage - is obtained by deducting from the gross tonnage the volume of space that can't be used for paying cargo or passengers, that is to say the space occupied by the engines, the crew's quarter, the stores, etc. Displacement Tonnage - is the actual weight of the water "displaced" by the ship and is usually quoted in long tons of 2240 lbs. Light Displacement Tonnage - is the weight with nothing in it. Loaded Displacement Tonnage - is the fully loaded weight to the maximum and is on her summer draft in salt water. Deadweight Tonnage - is the difference between Light and Loaded Displacement Tonnage....the actual carrying capacity of the vessel. Panama & Suez Canal Tonnages - these are different from the internationally accepted definitions. There used to be a lot of ariations between countries and the canal owners thought they were being conned, so they came up with their own definitions. Simplified Measurement System - The USCG decided that all this was way too much for bureaucrats to deal with for yachts so they came up with their own formula: Take the horizontal distance between the outboard ends of the boat not including rudders and bow sprits. Multiply that by the maximum beam outside to outside. Multiply that by the distance from the sheer line not including bulwarks or cap rails to the outside bottom of the hull not including the keel. Add the volume of the deck house/cabin top. Multiply by .5 for sailboats and .67 for power boats. Divide by 100. This will give you the "Gross Tonnage". Net tonnage is 90% of gross for sailboats and 80% for power boats. It should be obvious to anyone who's managed to get this far that your boat's "tonnage" no longer has anything to do with anything real; it only exists in the mind of some government bureaucrat. Rummage was the manner in which the wine casks were stored in the hold of the ship and came to refer to the whole ship's cargo. after a voyage any unclaimed and damaged cargo was stacked on the dock beside the boat and offered for sale - a rummage sale. another word of French maritime origin.
Tonnage has nothing to do with the weight of your boat. It is a measure of how much wine a vessel can carry. The word "tun" was originally a size of a cask used to ship wine from Spain & Portugal to England. In 1347 a tax of 3 shillings per tun was imposed and this was called "tonnage." A ship's size became known by the number of casks it could carry, and the word tonnage started being used to describe a ship's size. It was found that if you took the length x the breadth x the depth of the hold under the deck and divided by 100 it was close to the number of casks. That is where we get the "Measurement ton" of 100 cubic feet per ton. There are several kinds of tonnage: The first two are used by the tax collector. The next two are used by designers. The fifth and sixth are used by freight salesmen and canal operators and the last one is used by the USCG for documenting boats. Gross Tonnage - is the internal volume in cubic feet of the vessel minus certain spaces above the main or "tonnage" deck, like stacks and ventilators, which are called "exemptions" . Net Registered Tonnage - is obtained by deducting from the gross tonnage the volume of space that can't be used for paying cargo or passengers, that is to say the space occupied by the engines, the crew's quarter, the stores, etc. Displacement Tonnage - is the actual weight of the water "displaced" by the ship and is usually quoted in long tons of 2240 lbs. Light Displacement Tonnage - is the weight with nothing in it. Loaded Displacement Tonnage - is the fully loaded weight to the maximum and is on her summer draft in salt water. Deadweight Tonnage - is the difference between Light and Loaded Displacement Tonnage....the actual carrying capacity of the vessel. Panama & Suez Canal Tonnages - these are different from the internationally accepted definitions. There used to be a lot of ariations between countries and the canal owners thought they were being conned, so they came up with their own definitions. Simplified Measurement System - The USCG decided that all this was way too much for bureaucrats to deal with for yachts so they came up with their own formula: Take the horizontal distance between the outboard ends of the boat not including rudders and bow sprits. Multiply that by the maximum beam outside to outside. Multiply that by the distance from the sheer line not including bulwarks or cap rails to the outside bottom of the hull not including the keel. Add the volume of the deck house/cabin top. Multiply by .5 for sailboats and .67 for power boats. Divide by 100. This will give you the "Gross Tonnage". Net tonnage is 90% of gross for sailboats and 80% for power boats. It should be obvious to anyone who's managed to get this far that your boat's "tonnage" no longer has anything to do with anything real; it only exists in the mind of some government bureaucrat. Rummage was the manner in which the wine casks were stored in the hold of the ship and came to refer to the whole ship's cargo. after a voyage any unclaimed and damaged cargo was stacked on the dock beside the boat and offered for sale - a rummage sale. another word of French maritime origin.
Rich, I think you are right...
The benefits of documentaton vs state registration is minimal to me. You are also correct in that I did pull the info from some marine financial service web site: http://www.excelcredit.com/coast_guard_documentation.ht While Jon W. seems to validate the benefits proposed, so far the only benefit I have received from documeting is the fact I don't have a state registration number on my bow. The reason why I chose to document is my broker talked me into it. I have seen boats larger than mine (H340) with CA state registration numbers on their bow. Are they exempt? If so, what are the stipulations for exemption? r/tks
The benefits of documentaton vs state registration is minimal to me. You are also correct in that I did pull the info from some marine financial service web site: http://www.excelcredit.com/coast_guard_documentation.ht While Jon W. seems to validate the benefits proposed, so far the only benefit I have received from documeting is the fact I don't have a state registration number on my bow. The reason why I chose to document is my broker talked me into it. I have seen boats larger than mine (H340) with CA state registration numbers on their bow. Are they exempt? If so, what are the stipulations for exemption? r/tks
tks, Requirement?
Like I tried to point out, the benefit is overwhelmingly for the lender, and minimal to none for the owner. As far as I know, there is no requirement to document a recreational craft, unless it’s required by a specific lender under the provisions of the loan. I’m not sure what you mean by exempt. Exempt from what?
Like I tried to point out, the benefit is overwhelmingly for the lender, and minimal to none for the owner. As far as I know, there is no requirement to document a recreational craft, unless it’s required by a specific lender under the provisions of the loan. I’m not sure what you mean by exempt. Exempt from what?
My bad!
I stand corrected. The boats that must be documented are (http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/faq.htm#03): Vessels of five net tons or more used in fishing activities on navigable waters of the U.S. or in the Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ), or used in coastwise trade. The exemption from above (same web address) are: Vessels that do not operate on the navigable waters of the U.S. or in the fisheries in the EEZ, are exempt from the requirement to be documented. Also exempt are Coastwise qualified, non-self-propelled vessels used in coastwise trade within a harbor, on the rivers or lakes (except the Great Lakes) of the U.S. or the internal waters or canal of any state. Sorry about my oversite.
I stand corrected. The boats that must be documented are (http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/faq.htm#03): Vessels of five net tons or more used in fishing activities on navigable waters of the U.S. or in the Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ), or used in coastwise trade. The exemption from above (same web address) are: Vessels that do not operate on the navigable waters of the U.S. or in the fisheries in the EEZ, are exempt from the requirement to be documented. Also exempt are Coastwise qualified, non-self-propelled vessels used in coastwise trade within a harbor, on the rivers or lakes (except the Great Lakes) of the U.S. or the internal waters or canal of any state. Sorry about my oversite.
Documentation Info - Thank you
Thanks to all for the information. Our bank required our boat to be documented but I would probably have done it anyway. Long term plan is for the boat to wind up in the islands for extended periods so perhaps this may help someday. We are residents of NJ but the boat is kept in Stamford, Ct (for over 90 days a year). To keep the Ct "decal police" off my back I register the boat in Ct and get the Ct Certificate of Decal. Unfortunately it is much more expesive this way then if I registered the boat in my home state and just took my chances as many other do. After the 1996 witch hunt in Ct for unregistered boats or boats without the Ct Decal and an attempt to collect taxes I find it much easier to just go along with their program. Ct is where I chose to keep the boat so I mind as well go along with their rules. Thanks again to all. Peggy, a special thanks for all the history. Bob Keller S/V Kathryn 2, Stamford, Ct
Thanks to all for the information. Our bank required our boat to be documented but I would probably have done it anyway. Long term plan is for the boat to wind up in the islands for extended periods so perhaps this may help someday. We are residents of NJ but the boat is kept in Stamford, Ct (for over 90 days a year). To keep the Ct "decal police" off my back I register the boat in Ct and get the Ct Certificate of Decal. Unfortunately it is much more expesive this way then if I registered the boat in my home state and just took my chances as many other do. After the 1996 witch hunt in Ct for unregistered boats or boats without the Ct Decal and an attempt to collect taxes I find it much easier to just go along with their program. Ct is where I chose to keep the boat so I mind as well go along with their rules. Thanks again to all. Peggy, a special thanks for all the history. Bob Keller S/V Kathryn 2, Stamford, Ct
We have stickers
Of course, that's because boaters are the only people who's RVs are taxed in the State of Washington. Not cars or trucks or motor homes, nothing. Just boats! Why? Boats were left off of the voter initiative that repealed vehicle excise taxes. It was an oversight. Then the courts ruled that initiative to be void, but it passed with such a groundswell that the legislature made it law anyway. Of course, they left out boats too. So now a $50K boat pays tax, a quarter million dollar motor home does not. Too bad, so sad.
Of course, that's because boaters are the only people who's RVs are taxed in the State of Washington. Not cars or trucks or motor homes, nothing. Just boats! Why? Boats were left off of the voter initiative that repealed vehicle excise taxes. It was an oversight. Then the courts ruled that initiative to be void, but it passed with such a groundswell that the legislature made it law anyway. Of course, they left out boats too. So now a $50K boat pays tax, a quarter million dollar motor home does not. Too bad, so sad.
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