I am considering replacing my old preassurized alcohol stove with either CNG or Propane. I know that CNG is lighter than air; doesn't require an isolated locker for the cylinder, and thus thought that it would be the fuel of choice. However, was told by the old salt that runs a local chandlery that everyone is abandoning the CNG systems for propane because it is easier to get refills in cruising grounds such as Mexico. Any thoughts?
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replace cng with propane
Just went thru this last few months. decided propane, cng is not available any place other than mainland...not in mexico and getting sparce in catalina and channel islands. Easy install and yes needs cg approved locker for tank. can pick up locker at either boatus or west marine. try looking at some rv shops they re less expensive but hard to find parts.
Just went thru this last few months. decided propane, cng is not available any place other than mainland...not in mexico and getting sparce in catalina and channel islands. Easy install and yes needs cg approved locker for tank. can pick up locker at either boatus or west marine. try looking at some rv shops they re less expensive but hard to find parts.
Propsane
CT I agree. CNG is becoming harder to find even in the states. Outside the states, it doesn't exist. The only reason I haven't switched is that a chandlery right down th street from our boat still has CNG, and we keep a spare on board. Amazing how it always runs out in the middle of cooking dinner
The whole argument about safety is a bit overblown. Gazillions of boats have propane, just follow the directions carefully: solenoid switch, close tank at tank after each use, separate sealed tank with vent overboard, etc. Stu
CT I agree. CNG is becoming harder to find even in the states. Outside the states, it doesn't exist. The only reason I haven't switched is that a chandlery right down th street from our boat still has CNG, and we keep a spare on board. Amazing how it always runs out in the middle of cooking dinner
The whole argument about safety is a bit overblown. Gazillions of boats have propane, just follow the directions carefully: solenoid switch, close tank at tank after each use, separate sealed tank with vent overboard, etc. StuYou can hang your propane tank from the stern -
We switched to an 8 pound propane tank system. Mounted the tank on a stainless steel propane tank hanger readily available from your local chandlery, then hung the assembly outboard from the starboard rear pushpit stantion. We bored a hole through the stern (sealed with 4200) and fed the propane line into a rear starboard locker where we put it into a safety gas shut off solenoid valve, then ran the line though to the galley. Installed a safety shut-off switch under the stove, and there you go. No odour, controlled heat, safe, plus simple and economical refills available anywhere.
We switched to an 8 pound propane tank system. Mounted the tank on a stainless steel propane tank hanger readily available from your local chandlery, then hung the assembly outboard from the starboard rear pushpit stantion. We bored a hole through the stern (sealed with 4200) and fed the propane line into a rear starboard locker where we put it into a safety gas shut off solenoid valve, then ran the line though to the galley. Installed a safety shut-off switch under the stove, and there you go. No odour, controlled heat, safe, plus simple and economical refills available anywhere.
Follow up question?
I don't really want to add any unnecessory penetrations through my transom or deck to route the hose, so hanging from stern rail is not that attactive an option. Is it acceptable to place the required propane tank locker inside of my lazarette (which is not sealed from the rest of the vessel) so long as its vent is routed directly outside?
I don't really want to add any unnecessory penetrations through my transom or deck to route the hose, so hanging from stern rail is not that attactive an option. Is it acceptable to place the required propane tank locker inside of my lazarette (which is not sealed from the rest of the vessel) so long as its vent is routed directly outside?
propane venting
it's me again.... i set the locker in my back lasserete and then vented it outside by drilling a hole and placing a thru hull on in the transom next to my scupper drains.... simple and clean... the only thing is i lost a lot of storage space because i had to install in the middle of the lasserete...
it's me again.... i set the locker in my back lasserete and then vented it outside by drilling a hole and placing a thru hull on in the transom next to my scupper drains.... simple and clean... the only thing is i lost a lot of storage space because i had to install in the middle of the lasserete...
IMPORTANT 2 C. Timmons & Bob
NO, No, No, NEVER install an LPG cylinder in a storage locker, or any compartment open to the accommodations (ie: your Lazarette?)! Paraphrased from ABYC Article ‘A-1': LPG lockers, containing cylinders, valves, regulators, etc, must be designed to minimize the likelihood of their use for gear storage, and must be: - Vapour-tight to the hull interior - Above waterline - Corrosion resistant - Top opening (to outside), c/w gasketed, and latching cover - Vented overboard at bottom, but above static waterline - Not used for storage - Cylinders must be secured in place - more ... The typical lazarette would have to be significantly modified to comply with the above standards. CNG (natural gas) is NOT interchangable with LPG (Propane or Butane) and has different requirements (ABYC Article 'A-22'), including, but not limited to: - Sealed from hull interior (like LPG) - Venting @ TOP of locker (unlike LPG) - Water drain @ bottom of locker (additional to LPG) - etc ... This is NOT nearly a comprehensive description , and detailed advice/information should be acquired prior to performing any specific installation. Hope this helps. Regards, Gord
NO, No, No, NEVER install an LPG cylinder in a storage locker, or any compartment open to the accommodations (ie: your Lazarette?)! Paraphrased from ABYC Article ‘A-1': LPG lockers, containing cylinders, valves, regulators, etc, must be designed to minimize the likelihood of their use for gear storage, and must be: - Vapour-tight to the hull interior - Above waterline - Corrosion resistant - Top opening (to outside), c/w gasketed, and latching cover - Vented overboard at bottom, but above static waterline - Not used for storage - Cylinders must be secured in place - more ... The typical lazarette would have to be significantly modified to comply with the above standards. CNG (natural gas) is NOT interchangable with LPG (Propane or Butane) and has different requirements (ABYC Article 'A-22'), including, but not limited to: - Sealed from hull interior (like LPG) - Venting @ TOP of locker (unlike LPG) - Water drain @ bottom of locker (additional to LPG) - etc ... This is NOT nearly a comprehensive description , and detailed advice/information should be acquired prior to performing any specific installation. Hope this helps. Regards, Gord
2 Jim Quibell
Jim: Understand that you installed an LPG Locker on the pushpit (good), but put the Solenoid shut-off in a locker. 1. The Solenoid, too, must meet the same requirements as the cylinder (ie: isolated from interior & etc per ABYC Article A-1.1.7.6 etc). 2. The solenoid switch must be accessible from stove, without exposure to flame - under stove sounds OK. Regards, Gord
Jim: Understand that you installed an LPG Locker on the pushpit (good), but put the Solenoid shut-off in a locker. 1. The Solenoid, too, must meet the same requirements as the cylinder (ie: isolated from interior & etc per ABYC Article A-1.1.7.6 etc). 2. The solenoid switch must be accessible from stove, without exposure to flame - under stove sounds OK. Regards, Gord
Ahoy Gord
My gas shut-off solenoid valve is located in a starboard cockpit locker that is isolated and sealed from the rest of the boat. This location was recommended by the gas fitter who did my gas lines. You can do your own lines, but to be legal and safe I had a licensed gas fitter do them. The tank is not in a locker hanging from the pushpit, it is mounted on a s/s hanger assembly which is fastened on the outboard side of a pushpit stantion. Since I did this set up two years ago, I have noticed a number of other boats in the harbour who have followed suit. It doesn't look that bad, and is just about as safe as you can get.
My gas shut-off solenoid valve is located in a starboard cockpit locker that is isolated and sealed from the rest of the boat. This location was recommended by the gas fitter who did my gas lines. You can do your own lines, but to be legal and safe I had a licensed gas fitter do them. The tank is not in a locker hanging from the pushpit, it is mounted on a s/s hanger assembly which is fastened on the outboard side of a pushpit stantion. Since I did this set up two years ago, I have noticed a number of other boats in the harbour who have followed suit. It doesn't look that bad, and is just about as safe as you can get.
Here is a pic of stern tank
I have since lowered the tank down a bit so it is just at transom level. Looks better. I tell the rest of our racing fleet that it is our secret turbo boost for light wind conditions.
I have since lowered the tank down a bit so it is just at transom level. Looks better. I tell the rest of our racing fleet that it is our secret turbo boost for light wind conditions.
Attachments
NO CNG in Mexico
Lots of CA boats come down here with CNG and cannot get refilled. Then they need to convert to propane. It's easier to do in the states. No problem getting propane all over Mexico as every home uses it and there are distributors outside most towns.
Lots of CA boats come down here with CNG and cannot get refilled. Then they need to convert to propane. It's easier to do in the states. No problem getting propane all over Mexico as every home uses it and there are distributors outside most towns.
Looks good Jim
Jim: Your photo looks good, and I'll bet now lower down looks even better - but (just to be a picky jerk) you should provide a weather-cover for the tank (ABYC prohibits 'exposure to weather'). Glad to hear your fitter installed Solenoid Valve in SEALED locker. Regards, Gord
Jim: Your photo looks good, and I'll bet now lower down looks even better - but (just to be a picky jerk) you should provide a weather-cover for the tank (ABYC prohibits 'exposure to weather'). Glad to hear your fitter installed Solenoid Valve in SEALED locker.
Regards, GordClarification Gord
Gord, I understand the requirement to be in a compartment sealed from the interior of the vessel. However, placing a sealed propane locker which is vented directly through the transom via a sealed thru hul as Bob indicated, inside a lazarette which is not sealed from the interior of the boat appears to satisfy this requirement, so long as the solenoid is inside the sealed locker. Can you clarify your position?
Gord, I understand the requirement to be in a compartment sealed from the interior of the vessel. However, placing a sealed propane locker which is vented directly through the transom via a sealed thru hul as Bob indicated, inside a lazarette which is not sealed from the interior of the boat appears to satisfy this requirement, so long as the solenoid is inside the sealed locker. Can you clarify your position?
Spare CNG
On my last boat a Legend 37, we used to carry 4 CNG tanks to the Bahamas. We would use 3 tanks in 2 months and we cooked every meal and a lot of bread on the boat. This year we took two 10 pound propane tanks and used the first tank after 7 weeks. Bill
On my last boat a Legend 37, we used to carry 4 CNG tanks to the Bahamas. We would use 3 tanks in 2 months and we cooked every meal and a lot of bread on the boat. This year we took two 10 pound propane tanks and used the first tank after 7 weeks. Bill
Clarification & Apology
My apologies, I misread Bob's post. An externally vented LOCKER, that meets the usual requirements, may be installed within the Lazarette, even tho' the Laz. is open to the interior. The locker itself becomes a sealed compartment. Thanks for pointing out my error (C Timmons). Regards, Gord
My apologies, I misread Bob's post. An externally vented LOCKER, that meets the usual requirements, may be installed within the Lazarette, even tho' the Laz. is open to the interior. The locker itself becomes a sealed compartment. Thanks for pointing out my error (C Timmons). Regards, Gord
To Bill of Punta Gorda
We have CNG on our 86 H40 and no wish to change for the short term cruising. SO where do you store those extra tanks AND how do you ensure their safety? We have a large PVC tube that we transport the tank to and from our local Gas Co who refills the tanks for 10 dollars and would defintely carry spares if we could arrange it safely. Thanks, Heidi (You can e-mail me at hood4us@aol.com with a response or post here.)
We have CNG on our 86 H40 and no wish to change for the short term cruising. SO where do you store those extra tanks AND how do you ensure their safety? We have a large PVC tube that we transport the tank to and from our local Gas Co who refills the tanks for 10 dollars and would defintely carry spares if we could arrange it safely. Thanks, Heidi (You can e-mail me at hood4us@aol.com with a response or post here.)
CNG Storage for Heidi
I used to strap one of the tanks to the working tank behind the port seat. The other two were strapped together and stored behind the rear bunk in the transom. Our '87 Legend 37 had a lot of room in the transom that could only be reached via the interior of the rear cabin. Your '86 H40 may be similar. We always needed extra weight in the stern to offset the chain in the bow locker. Bill Bell
I used to strap one of the tanks to the working tank behind the port seat. The other two were strapped together and stored behind the rear bunk in the transom. Our '87 Legend 37 had a lot of room in the transom that could only be reached via the interior of the rear cabin. Your '86 H40 may be similar. We always needed extra weight in the stern to offset the chain in the bow locker. Bill Bell
cllarification of install propane
sorry for the mix up...i actually installed a sealed locker with sensor and valve inside and the locker into the back lazerete...i also installled a shut off switch in the galley.... IMPORTANT make sure the vent continues down hill because any up step causes a pocket for propane to collect. good luck OH by the way where were allof you when i started my install last month???ha ha
sorry for the mix up...i actually installed a sealed locker with sensor and valve inside and the locker into the back lazerete...i also installled a shut off switch in the galley.... IMPORTANT make sure the vent continues down hill because any up step causes a pocket for propane to collect. good luck OH by the way where were allof you when i started my install last month???ha ha
do not put propane in a locker open to interior
this is just asking for problems and may invalidate your insurance. It is ABYC specs that the propane locker cannot have any openning to the interior of the vessel, it must be vented with a substantial vent line away from the exhaust. even one of the commercially available lockers should NOT be put in another locker.
this is just asking for problems and may invalidate your insurance. It is ABYC specs that the propane locker cannot have any openning to the interior of the vessel, it must be vented with a substantial vent line away from the exhaust. even one of the commercially available lockers should NOT be put in another locker.
LPG Locker IS allowed in Lazarette
Debra B is almost right - in that “LPG Lockers shall be installed so that the locker opens only directly to the outside atmosphere” (ABYC A-1,8.2.1) BUT ABYC A-1.8.2.2 goes on to say: “If an LPG Locker is installed inside a boat locker, the LPG locker shall be located as high and as close to the boat locker’s opening as possible in order to comply with A-1.8.2.1" And paraphrasing: (A-1.8.4) requires a dedicated vent at the bottom (min. ½"), and (A-1.8.5) says vents shall be led outboard without pockets, and (A-2.8.6) says vents must be min. 20" away from any opening to the boat interior. Seems to me, the described installation meets the quoted requirements, and is a relatively safe, functional, and practical solution to a (common) troublesome problem. I too (Debra) would prefer to see an exterior locker, but sometimes ya just gotta do what ya can, with what ya got. BTW: CNG (Natural Gas), unlike Propane/Butane (LPG) is LIGHTER than AIR, so the avove exception to "opening only to outside" does NOT apply. While I (claim to) provide absolutely reliable & infallible advice of the highest quality & accuracy, it’s really worth exactly what you are paying for it (or maybe a little less) - and is NOT intended to ever be put to ANY practical use whatsoever, and should not be considered conclusive, nor appropriate for any application. In fact, anyone who even bothers to even read my postings is advised to seek psychiatric (or other suitably qualified) help. Regards, Gord
Debra B is almost right - in that “LPG Lockers shall be installed so that the locker opens only directly to the outside atmosphere” (ABYC A-1,8.2.1) BUT ABYC A-1.8.2.2 goes on to say: “If an LPG Locker is installed inside a boat locker, the LPG locker shall be located as high and as close to the boat locker’s opening as possible in order to comply with A-1.8.2.1" And paraphrasing: (A-1.8.4) requires a dedicated vent at the bottom (min. ½"), and (A-1.8.5) says vents shall be led outboard without pockets, and (A-2.8.6) says vents must be min. 20" away from any opening to the boat interior. Seems to me, the described installation meets the quoted requirements, and is a relatively safe, functional, and practical solution to a (common) troublesome problem. I too (Debra) would prefer to see an exterior locker, but sometimes ya just gotta do what ya can, with what ya got. BTW: CNG (Natural Gas), unlike Propane/Butane (LPG) is LIGHTER than AIR, so the avove exception to "opening only to outside" does NOT apply. While I (claim to) provide absolutely reliable & infallible advice of the highest quality & accuracy, it’s really worth exactly what you are paying for it (or maybe a little less) - and is NOT intended to ever be put to ANY practical use whatsoever, and should not be considered conclusive, nor appropriate for any application. In fact, anyone who even bothers to even read my postings is advised to seek psychiatric (or other suitably qualified) help.
Regards, Gord- Status