In considering a new set of sails for my Catalina 30, I am going over to a 150 Genoa and main with two full battens. My question is should the cloth weight be 6.5 oz. or 7.0 oz. or 7.5 oz. ? Conditions typically run winds of 10 to 12 knots before noon, and winds of 15 to 20 knots after 1PM on The Great South Bay. All comments will be appreciated.
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Hi Doug, Welcome to the Doyle Sails Forum. Your question isn't really that simple. How the Cloth is woven makes a bigger difference than the actual weight. The decimal designator in a Dacron cloth weight usually designates a style of fabric in a certain weight range. For example one sailcloth company in the 7oz range has a 7.46, and a 7.52. The .46 designates this fabric as a low aspect weave, vs .52 which designates a high aspect weave. In that same 7oz range another Sailcloth company may have a 7.2 or 7.62. Your sailmaker will generally quote you a range and then pick the fabric that has the best charachteristics to suit the sail being built. However for your boat I would consider a 7oz(range) for the Main, and a 5-60z range for the Genoa, 5oz if you rarely need to reef, or 6oz if you reef more often. On a 150% Genoa, I might also recommend using UV stabilized Dacron for the Suncover. It is true sailcloth, which adds strength to the leech and foot when reefed for stiffer breeze, but is much lighter than Sunbrella, so the sail will fly better in lighter breeze. UV Dacron is a true sacrificial suncover, meaning for instance in Florida, it would need to be replaced in 3-4years, up north it will last substantially longer. During that time however, the sail is not as stretched out due to repeated reefing as a sail with sunbrella may be.
Run this by Doyle...
...which is accessible on this website. They offer cogent explanations for the different weights and tradeoffs.
...which is accessible on this website. They offer cogent explanations for the different weights and tradeoffs.
I've always found that sailmakers ...
tend to recommend a lighter weight sail than a cruiser really could use. Especially on a jib. I think most of them have racer mentality which keys in a max life of three years to a cruiser's sails and assumes you need racer performance ... last time I bought from North I argued that his recommendation was light ... built to one grade heavier and those sails lasted 9 years in pretty good shape. I like to make the jib heavier because I like to run it down wind in stronger wind than it can be run upwind ... if you get what I mean ... and that does beat up lighter cloth when you half furl it to beat upwind. Also ask the sales person what kind of sailing he likes to do ... especially if he is under 30 ... that will give you a feeling for his recommendations. Vic
tend to recommend a lighter weight sail than a cruiser really could use. Especially on a jib. I think most of them have racer mentality which keys in a max life of three years to a cruiser's sails and assumes you need racer performance ... last time I bought from North I argued that his recommendation was light ... built to one grade heavier and those sails lasted 9 years in pretty good shape. I like to make the jib heavier because I like to run it down wind in stronger wind than it can be run upwind ... if you get what I mean ... and that does beat up lighter cloth when you half furl it to beat upwind. Also ask the sales person what kind of sailing he likes to do ... especially if he is under 30 ... that will give you a feeling for his recommendations. Vic
I don't know....
Vic: I don't know about this. I have used a couple of sailmakers that know the boat and the cruising environment and thought that they did a good job of their recommendations. I would have to agree if you are talking to someone that does not know the area where you are sailing. This would be based on 'averages' based on your boat. If you find a sailmaker that knows your area, they are going to be interested in some repeat business. So be it, if it happens to be 8-10 years but that is better than NO REPEAT BUSINESS. This is exactly why you need to talk to someone that knows the GENERAL sailing conditions in your area. Just so that the folks from the HOW site have regional lofts that are making and designing sails.
Vic: I don't know about this. I have used a couple of sailmakers that know the boat and the cruising environment and thought that they did a good job of their recommendations. I would have to agree if you are talking to someone that does not know the area where you are sailing. This would be based on 'averages' based on your boat. If you find a sailmaker that knows your area, they are going to be interested in some repeat business. So be it, if it happens to be 8-10 years but that is better than NO REPEAT BUSINESS. This is exactly why you need to talk to someone that knows the GENERAL sailing conditions in your area. Just so that the folks from the HOW site have regional lofts that are making and designing sails.
Why a 150?
The 150 is a great sail for going into the wind in light air - 4 to 7 knots. It also beats the racing rules - which sometimes rule out, or penalize the spinnaker that would be better for reaches and runs. At 10 knots, the 150 would probably be at maximum reef, and above that, in the range you predict most of your sailing, It will be out of shape and simply the wrong sail. If you plan to race, it's a great sail - but for cruising in your conditions, I'd at least consider a 110 with a plan to add a cruising spinnaker if you want more speed in light air. I second the recommendation to talk to a local sailmaker. Just make sure he really listens to your plans for use of the boat. My experience has been super. David Lady Lillie
The 150 is a great sail for going into the wind in light air - 4 to 7 knots. It also beats the racing rules - which sometimes rule out, or penalize the spinnaker that would be better for reaches and runs. At 10 knots, the 150 would probably be at maximum reef, and above that, in the range you predict most of your sailing, It will be out of shape and simply the wrong sail. If you plan to race, it's a great sail - but for cruising in your conditions, I'd at least consider a 110 with a plan to add a cruising spinnaker if you want more speed in light air. I second the recommendation to talk to a local sailmaker. Just make sure he really listens to your plans for use of the boat. My experience has been super. David Lady Lillie
Standard or Tall Rig
After 10 years of sailing a Catalina 30 tall rig, I sold it in October and went over to the dark side with a Hunter 35.5 Legend. My 10 years of experience with a Catalina Tall Rig was excellent. It was a great boat. We had a 150 genoa manufactured by Airforce Sails. It was a great sail, however, at 12 knots true you will become very overpowered and must reduce sail. Since you wind is usually over 12 knots, I suggest going to a 130 jib. Going upwind, you will still need to reef the main at 13 knots true. Above 13, you will also need to begin rolling up your 130 for optimum VMG and heel angle.
After 10 years of sailing a Catalina 30 tall rig, I sold it in October and went over to the dark side with a Hunter 35.5 Legend. My 10 years of experience with a Catalina Tall Rig was excellent. It was a great boat. We had a 150 genoa manufactured by Airforce Sails. It was a great sail, however, at 12 knots true you will become very overpowered and must reduce sail. Since you wind is usually over 12 knots, I suggest going to a 130 jib. Going upwind, you will still need to reef the main at 13 knots true. Above 13, you will also need to begin rolling up your 130 for optimum VMG and heel angle.
Recommend Next Heavier Fabric
Like Allen we have a H-35 also, '88 with fractional rig. The boat came standard with a 110 made by a UK loft in Hong Kong and lasted max 9 years and had been recut once. On Puget Sound the afternoon winds, on a good day, can get up to between 19 and 22 apparent (on a beat) so for that reason I opted for the next heavier sail cloth (North Dacron crosscut) and a foam luff for "reefing". Also went with the next heavier cloth on the main. Downside is the sails are harder to fold or flake. I have a tri-radial Norlam 150 for light air days but the 110 is more difficult to fold than the old one was due to (1) heavier cloth, (2) foam luff, and (3) the cloth is not broken down. I think 2 and 3 are the main reasons for the folding difficulty. Performance: In the heavier winds I feel comfortable about sheeting the 110 sail in hard and flat, and not having to worry as much about stretching it. Now that we have the reefing capability available we've practically never used it (we also have a 70-percent). Maybe we avoid the higher winds and seas more or the winds haven't been as strong - I don't know. Anyway, If I had to do it over again, for the money, I wouldn't opt the foam luff. Size: The 110 is a really good all-purpose size sail. For off the wind we can fly a regular spinnaker for maximum sail area and this is short handed with just my wife and myself. It's easier to change to a larger sail when the winds get light than it is to go to a smaller sail when the winds have built up. For what you describe, 20 kts (and maybe sometimes more?), if it were my boat I'd opt for a smaller sail, certainly the 130 and, my preference, the 110 with a chute. In my opinion, for just knocking about, the larger jib doesn't buy you that much more speed to justify the problems with boat handling in heavy air.
Like Allen we have a H-35 also, '88 with fractional rig. The boat came standard with a 110 made by a UK loft in Hong Kong and lasted max 9 years and had been recut once. On Puget Sound the afternoon winds, on a good day, can get up to between 19 and 22 apparent (on a beat) so for that reason I opted for the next heavier sail cloth (North Dacron crosscut) and a foam luff for "reefing". Also went with the next heavier cloth on the main. Downside is the sails are harder to fold or flake. I have a tri-radial Norlam 150 for light air days but the 110 is more difficult to fold than the old one was due to (1) heavier cloth, (2) foam luff, and (3) the cloth is not broken down. I think 2 and 3 are the main reasons for the folding difficulty. Performance: In the heavier winds I feel comfortable about sheeting the 110 sail in hard and flat, and not having to worry as much about stretching it. Now that we have the reefing capability available we've practically never used it (we also have a 70-percent). Maybe we avoid the higher winds and seas more or the winds haven't been as strong - I don't know. Anyway, If I had to do it over again, for the money, I wouldn't opt the foam luff. Size: The 110 is a really good all-purpose size sail. For off the wind we can fly a regular spinnaker for maximum sail area and this is short handed with just my wife and myself. It's easier to change to a larger sail when the winds get light than it is to go to a smaller sail when the winds have built up. For what you describe, 20 kts (and maybe sometimes more?), if it were my boat I'd opt for a smaller sail, certainly the 130 and, my preference, the 110 with a chute. In my opinion, for just knocking about, the larger jib doesn't buy you that much more speed to justify the problems with boat handling in heavy air.
Qualification on Heavier Cloth Weight
After seeing my post again I'd like to add a qualification on going to a heavier cloth weight. Some sailmakers have tables that can tell them what weight cloth to use but any particular cloth will cover a range of sail sizes. See where your sail would fit. If it's near the upper end for a particular weight then I'd go with the next heavier weight. On the other hand, if it turns out that it's on the lower end then I probably wouldn't. For my I and J and sail shape it turned out that I was nearer the upper end for the particular type cloth so that's one reason I opted to spring for going to the next heavier weight. The lighter stuff gives less weight aloft which is another reason the racers like it.
After seeing my post again I'd like to add a qualification on going to a heavier cloth weight. Some sailmakers have tables that can tell them what weight cloth to use but any particular cloth will cover a range of sail sizes. See where your sail would fit. If it's near the upper end for a particular weight then I'd go with the next heavier weight. On the other hand, if it turns out that it's on the lower end then I probably wouldn't. For my I and J and sail shape it turned out that I was nearer the upper end for the particular type cloth so that's one reason I opted to spring for going to the next heavier weight. The lighter stuff gives less weight aloft which is another reason the racers like it.
The downside of heavier sail cloth, however ...
is that your mainsail cover will probably no longer fit ... and you really have to flake the sail nice and neat... but when it goes up ... and is fully battened ... it feels like an aircraft wing that just loves 18+. John N seems to enjoy sailing in the same mode I do. Of course the other thing to ask your sailmaker is how many sails for your kind of boat he has spec'd out the last year. It is not just the conditions ... but the boat design itself that influences sail weight. If he gives you a couple of references that are pertinent ... might be worth a call. Vic
is that your mainsail cover will probably no longer fit ... and you really have to flake the sail nice and neat... but when it goes up ... and is fully battened ... it feels like an aircraft wing that just loves 18+. John N seems to enjoy sailing in the same mode I do. Of course the other thing to ask your sailmaker is how many sails for your kind of boat he has spec'd out the last year. It is not just the conditions ... but the boat design itself that influences sail weight. If he gives you a couple of references that are pertinent ... might be worth a call. Vic
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