Clevis Pin Vs Bolt on Headstay Hounds

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highdesertM26

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Jul 5, 2010
43
MacGregor 26S Cochiti
I ordered a new headstay from riggingonly for the CDI furler I plan on installing in the near future. The folks at riggingonly suggested I go with a toggle on top of the headstay rather than the traditional macgregor thimble set up with the bolt through the hounds.

So they sent me a toggle set up with a clevis pin to run through the mast hounds. I'm a little concerned because the way the hounds are two independent plates/holes with a pin going through them. It seems to me that the clevis pin set up is usually used on a "fixed" fork type attachment that wouldn't have the twisting loads possible from the hounds on the mac. Seems like this could where through the cotter pin. I'm no engineer so any advice is welcome.

Thanks!
 
Sumner

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
I got their 12-121 standard eye jaw toggle and used a 5/16 stainless bolt through the tangs. I had gotten new tangs from BWY and they have a 1/4 inch hole. Since I had increased all fo the other hardware on the forestay I went up to the 5/16 to match the strength of everything else I'd used. The 1/16 larger hole only took .030 of material from around the tang hole.

If you are using a 1/8th forestay and other gear that is 1/4 inch, such as the turnbuckle, I'd use a 1/4 inch stainless bolt up there with a stainless nylock nut.

I'm with you in that the pin would probably work, but I'd feel better with the bolt. For what it is worth I think the 1/4 inch bolt that was on our boat up there was bent from load or whatever. Not sure if I remember that right or not. Maybe a pin is stronger? If you use it use a flat washer between the cotter pin and tang maybe?

Good luck,

Sum

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

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Sumner

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Just a note to the above.

The 12-121 toggle....



...has a fairly wide bearing surface compared to say the FT10 that I used on the bottom.

I have the FT10 attached to the bow plate (chain plate), whatever it is called, with a clevis pin and the bottom of the Johnson Lever attaches to the top of the FT10.

The top of the Johnson Lever is attached to the toggle on the bottom of the 516TFBS532 turnbuckle at the base of the CDI.

So far all of this has worked with no problems with about 60 days out on it now.

Good luck,

Sum

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

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H

highdesertM26

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Jul 5, 2010
43
MacGregor 26S Cochiti
Sum - I got the same toggle (12-121) and they also sent me a clevis pin and cotter ring (ring ding) to replace the bolt with. I think the clevis pin would me much stronger than the bolt that was there, but again...I think the week point is ring ding, which I'm thinking about replacing with the largest cotter pin I can fit in the clevis pin hole.

I went with the 5/32 wire on the headstay also.

Thanks again Sum.
 
H

highdesertM26

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Jul 5, 2010
43
MacGregor 26S Cochiti
Sum...one more thing...did you relocate your jib halyard block? It seems like it is in the way with the toggle up there now.
 
Sumner

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
highdesertM26 said:
Sum...one more thing...did you relocate your jib halyard block? It seems like it is in the way with the toggle up there now.
Click to expand
I put new tangs on the mast about 20 inches above the orginal ones and moved the upper shrouds there also, new ones I made up.

The original tangs are still in place with the orginal forestay and block on them. When I made the double bow....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/rigging-16.html

...rollers for the...



..... two anchors I made the ....




...bracket shown above. The original forestay can attach to it and I have a lever that gives me the leverage to pin it quickly just behind the CDI and its forestay. I could then still use any hank-on sail on it. We have our original jib and genoa on board right now on this trip. So far I haven't tried them on the inner forestay, but see now reason why they or a storm sail wouldn't work on the old, now inner, forestay.

In your case do you have plans to use the old block for anything?

Sum

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

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THECUSCUS

THECUSCUS

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Sep 25, 2008
961
Macgregor & Island Packet VENTURE 25 & IP-38 NORTH EAST, MD
I used a bolt with a locknut and a compression sleeve between the hounds. That way you can squeeze it all together tight, if you would use a clevis pin, things would be loose fitting and the hounds could move around independetly of each other.
 
dparilla

dparilla

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Jan 22, 2008
597
Oday 35 and Mariner 2+2 Alexandria, VA
I would recommend against using a bolt, most do not have the shear rating needed for this application. The clevis pin is rated to take the stress, all the cotter key is needed for is to keep it from sliding out. I have seen 2 stays fail because of bolt usage, and in another case, the bolt was bent and deformed the threads through the nut so badly that I had to use a cutoff wheel to remove it. The tension had pulled the nylon lock ring into the nut and seized completely. Stick with the clevis arrangement.
 
H

highdesertM26

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Jul 5, 2010
43
MacGregor 26S Cochiti
Sum...I don't necessarily need the halyard block but I thought it might be good to have to maybe pull a sock over the furler or as a secondary support (if I wanted to run the halyard down to the bow pulpit) for some reason.

THECUSCUS...that looks like a good arrangement, but dparilla gives me second thoughts about the bolt arrangement....oh decisions, decisions
 
THECUSCUS

THECUSCUS

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Sep 25, 2008
961
Macgregor & Island Packet VENTURE 25 & IP-38 NORTH EAST, MD
Highdesert, dparilla's boat was a much larger one (if his avatar is correct) and probably didn't use the same set-up as a Macgregor. I would bet on the Mac, the stay would snap before the bolt would. When using the bolt, made sure you use one that the shoulder (unthreaded part) goes the whole way through to the hound on the nut end, so as not to have any threads being load bearing (threaded area is smaller and weaker). You may have to use a custom made bolt and shrink or wider the distance between the hounds alittle to make this happen. I don't think you would want things to be as loose as they would be with the pin.
 
Doug J

Doug J

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May 2, 2005
1,192
Hunter 26 Oceanside, CA
Mine is similar to CUSCUS. The OEM is a bolt. I'd just recommend having the hounds snugged up close, so the bolt won't bend. I installed a bail just above the hounds as you can see, which I have the jib halyard run to, and another line I use to hoist up a jib sock over my 150 genoa on a CDI furler.
 

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dparilla

dparilla

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Jan 22, 2008
597
Oday 35 and Mariner 2+2 Alexandria, VA
That is true, the loading should be lighter, but even on my old 420 we used the clevis pin arrangement. Post a pic if you can as I am curious.

Dan
 
Sumner

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
dparilla said:
That is true, the loading should be lighter, but even on my old 420 we used the clevis pin arrangement. Post a pic if you can as I am curious.

Dan
Click to expand
Dan the orginals, at least ours, had a 1/4 inch bolt and what I didn't like was that the bolt supported the headstay that had a thimble on the end and also the jib block. This made the bolt pretty wide between the hounds and put a real bending force on it in the center or a little off center.

Obvisiouly this worked on lots of boats for lots of years as so far I haven't heard of one breaking. Ours was bent.

Now I have a 5/16 bolt and the hounds are sucked in on it so that it is only supporting the 12-121 toggle that has a wide flat bearing surface, better than the thimbles bearing surface. The hounds are pulled up to almost touching the thimble, so there isn't much bending that can go on with the bolt. It is pretty much in shear. I think the 1/4 inch bolt is also fine, but if you increase the forestay and the other hardware the 1/4 inch bolt is now the weak link.

I think if you still need to run a jib block that what Doug did with the bail above the hounds is an excellent way to go and better than what the factory did. Of course we know they tried to save money every way they could ;).

I also don't see a problem using the pin like you suggested, but would probably use some spacers to pull the hounds in so that they were just touching the toggle,

Sum

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

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H

highdesertM26

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Jul 5, 2010
43
MacGregor 26S Cochiti
Sum and Doug,

I mounted a bail above the the headstay attachment like Doug did. Two questions...I used a bail (Ronstan RF1046) with a quarter inch mounting hole and a 1/4-20 stainless bolt. Sum, in your professional opinion, is a quarter inch bolt strong enough to support lowering and raising the mast? I just raised it and it worked, but it scares me a little...the bigger bails were pushing $50 though.

Doug - I ran the halyard - one line over the top of the headstay tangs and one under like you did...the one that runs over catches on the top cap of the furler when it spins. Does yours do that? I was thinking about running both lines under the tangs. I mounted the bail 5 inches above the tangs and I'm using a ronstan single block, similar to your double block.

THANKS GUYS!!!
 
Sumner

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
highdesertM26 said:
Sum and Doug,

I mounted a bail above the the headstay attachment like Doug did. Two questions...I used a.....



... bail (Ronstan RF1046) with a quarter inch mounting hole and a 1/4-20 stainless bolt. Sum, in your professional opinion, is a quarter inch bolt strong enough to support lowering and raising the mast? I just raised it and it worked, but it scares me a little...the bigger bails were pushing $50 though....
Click to expand
I wouldn't worry about the 1/4 inch bolt. The load is spread on both ends of it. Chances are that the pin in the block attachment you are using is 1/4 or less? That would then be the weak link.

I also wouldn't be concerned about drilling the hole on the bail out to 5/16 for a 5/16th bolt if that would make you feel better. That would only take out .030 worth of material around the circumference of the hole. I have had good luck drilling SS with the nitrate bits from HF going up 1/64th at a time. I don't think going to 5/16th is needed though.

I don't think that is needed though. MacGregor used 1/4 inch bolts on the forestay at the top and 1/4 inch pins on the bottom and you are going to have more load on the forestay sailing vs. the jib halyard raising the mast in my 'non-professional' opinion ;).

On that note, I post on here a lot and have built a lot of things, but please don't anyone accept that as proof that what I have done is necessarily an indication that it was/is safe or sound engineering. When in doubt use your best judgment or seek out someone that you trust that can help you,

Sum

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links
 
cscott

cscott

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Oct 18, 2007
188
Macgregor 26S - 1993 Aumsville, OR
FWIW-- I called CDI back east this week because I am making a new Headstay. I asked about Toggle vs Thimble. He asked what type of boat I had, and I told him a Mac 26S. He recomended that I stick with the Thimble with the Mac Hounds. Therefore, based on his recomendation, I will still use the thimble. I mentioned that his info recomended the toggle, but he said thimble.
Chuck
 
Sumner

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
cscott

cscott

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Oct 18, 2007
188
Macgregor 26S - 1993 Aumsville, OR
Sumner said:
I agree that on our boats either will probably be fine, but still here is an argument for the toggle....

http://www.macgregor26x.com/forum/v...sid=5ad330f76db8d8ddcc1c8ab60baa9b65&start=30


Sumner,
Do to my laziness I did not explain fully. The gentleman at CDI said that if you use the Hounds with the 1/4" bolt like Mac. installs with the space, use the thimble. However, if you use the Hound that comes together in the front, use the toggle.

BTW, I removed the block where the headstay goes along time ago. It gets in the way of the furrler.

Chuck
Click to expand
 
Chris & Lenore

Chris & Lenore

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Apr 24, 2006
868
Aloha 32 Toronto, Lake Ontario
Haven't been on this forum for some time. I just wanted to mention that I didn't like the bolt either - but it has proven itself to be totally adequate. Proof is that I have heard of no reported failures. Being a Mac, one single failure and we would hear about it forever!

Chris
 
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