clear or amber varnish?

[haynie5]

Ive used the petit z-spar captains amber varnish for years. Has any body used the clear version on there exterior teak? What do you guys think comes out better.

 

[caguy]

Ive used the petit z-spar captains amber varnish for years. Has any body used the clear version on there exterior teak? What do you guys think comes out better.

I don't like the yellow tinge that the uv protected varnish has, so I used the clear. I keep my hand rails covered as well the rest of the woodwork with sunbrella.

 

[philwsailz]

Caguy said it but he didn't say it either. Confused yet?

You want UV protection one way or the other. To me the question is not amber or clear, but UV or non-UV. Caguy uses canvas covers to protect his clear non-UV finish. If you are not going to cover your brightwork, you need to use a finish with UV protection. Clear or amber is up to you, as is UV, but trust me again, you want UV protection one way or the other. Last time I looked you can get either with protection.


For me, I love brightwork but I hate brightwork. I love how it looks, love doing it, but HATE redoing it. Amber varnish is a traditional look and is "yachty" while clear is a more contemporary look for a boat. Either can be had with stabilizers the last time I looked. Get your choice and make sure it has "sunscreen" and you will be redoing your brightwork less. Cover it with a good cover that won't chafe and you will prolong your time between rework.

 

[audiolofft]

Hi Phil and all,
I have a 1986 Catalina 27. Does anyone know if the exterior brightwork, the wood trim, is all teak, or just the hand rails? The previous owner from whom I purchased the boat 3 seasons ago had varnished all the exterior wood, and it's starting to flake off. I'm thinking of letting it weather to gray rather than get into the endless cycle of re-varnishing. It's stored outside under a full tarp during the winter.

Is the companionway trim and washboard teak as well? I can't tell.

Thanks for any responses.
--Alan

 

[philwsailz]

For an 86, I think I might double-check withe forum member Joe Diver. He has done extensive refinishing and has a later boat, I think????

I believe all your exterior is teak, as is the case with my 75 C-27 as well as my now sold '87 C-22. Lets gets second-opinion to be sure though. PM Joe Diver and check to see what he says.

 

[audiolofft]

For an 86, I think I might double-check withe forum member Joe Diver. He has done extensive refinishing and has a later boat, I think????

I believe all your exterior is teak, as is the case with my 75 C-27 as well as my now sold '87 C-22. Lets gets second-opinion to be sure though. PM Joe Diver and check to see what he says.

Thanks for your advice. I'll contact forum member Joe Diver.
Regards,
Alan

 

[philwsailz]

Know teak is an oily wood, hence its use for exterior applications. When you finish or refinish it, you gotta get the oils out of the surface of the wood, in order to get your finish to penetrate. Otherwise, it is kinda like varnishing cooking oil; your finish will have no mechanical bond and is literally just floating.

I will vigorously clean with acetone, JUST PRIOR to starting any finish application. Soak a rag and clean your wood. Throw the rag down, get another clean rag, and continue cleaning. New rags, and new acetone until you stop getting orange staining in your acetone soaked rags. At this point, you have the oils removed from the surface and at least to some depth.

Be ready with your stain, or varnish, and when the acetone flashes, (it won't take long) get that first coat on quickly, before any underlying oils can migrate up to the surface. This will allow your finish to penetrate into your wod to some depth, and gives you the mechanical tooth for better adhesion.

This is the fundamental trick to getting a durable finish on teak.

FYI

 

[caguy]

Here is an excellent article on varnishing bright work.
I found it because I remember reading an article in This Old Boat about thinning the varnish. There was a graduation of thinning that ran from 25% to 10%. It really does make the job of varnishing less tedious by reducing the drying time between coats.
I'm not sure what you mean by wash boards, but I varnished the teak cockpit floor grate by spraying it on. I tried brushing it at first but getting in each of the holes was a pain so I thinned it out and sprayed it, much easier.

http://varnishteak.blogspot.com/

 

[philwsailz]

Here is an excellent article on varnishing bright work.
I found it because I remember reading an article in This Old Boat about thinning the varnish. There was a graduation of thinning that ran from 25% to 10%. It really does make the job of varnishing less tedious by reducing the drying time between coats.
I'm not sure what you mean by wash boards, but I varnished the teak cockpit floor grate by spraying it on. I tried brushing it at first but getting in each of the holes was a pain so I thinned it out and sprayed it, much easier.

http://varnishteak.blogspot.com/

I might counter that thinning increases number of coats... Maybe.

I have no test data, but it is reasonable to assume that if you are applying more evaporative carrier and less solids, your build thickness per coat is less. It will probably take more coats to get the same finished thickness....

Wood boat guys get around this two ways.

One is to use two different formulas from same brand. For an all varnish finish, many Interlux finishers will use Jet Speed and get two coats per day. They finish up with Schooner for a slow drying, self-leveling UV protection coat.

Another trick the show boat guys use that I have just started experimenting with is a rolled and tipped epoxy build coat or two followed by varnish. Many show boats employ this method for a very flat, wet-look varnish. The epoxy gives a high-solids thick and quick depth. Sand it smooth and apply a couple of coats of varnish.
The epoxy fills the grain and gives necessary depth and finish thickness and then the top coat of varnish provides the UV protection the epoxy undercoat needs. The look achieved is one similar or better than a 20-coat varnish build, while requiring only 3or 4 coats.
Lastly it is QUICK, as you can have an epoxy build coat or two cured within a few hours that is equivalent to weeks of varnishing and sanding. Something to consider if your goal is a deep smooth finish free of grain texture you can see or feel.

Know there is a certain voodoo some maintain regarding UV varnish. Many theorize, and I have no basis to argue, that by and during the process of drying, all the UV inhibitors migrate to the surface of your finish. Therefore, if it is your habit to wet-sand and polish your final varnish coat, many will argue that you have removed your UV protection.

I might argue this theory, but buy in on it enough to tell you that for any bright work I do, the last coat is left as applied. You will never see me sand and polish a final exterior varnish coat. It is left as delivered by the brush. if I botch a last coat, it becomes the next-to-last coat. I will block it with 400 and try again.

 

[Jon_E]

I might counter that thinning increases number of coats... Maybe.

I have no test data, but it is reasonable to assume that if you are applying more evaporative carrier and less solids, your build thickness per coat is less. It will probably take more coats to get the same finished thickness....

The first coat on the wood should be the thinnest. This enables the first coast to bond with the wood. Subsequent coats are thinned less and less until the final coat has almost no thinner at all.

This came from another one of Don Casey's books on marine finishing.

 

[philwsailz]

The first coat on the wood should be the thinnest. This enables the first coast to bond with the wood. Subsequent coats are thinned less and less until the final coat has almost no thinner at all.

This came from another one of Don Casey's books on marine finishing.

I will agree that a first coat of varnish that is thinned makes reasonable sense for the penetration aspect of it. It is for this reason that I advocate getting the oils out of the upper layer of the wood, so that the varnish can penetrate. I don't doubt Mr. Casey's knowledge and experience either.

That respectful formality out of the way, I will tell you from having totally varnished several wood boats, unless you are spraying and need thinner or reducer to get the goop out of a gun there is no logical benefit in thinning subsequent coats unless you have masochistic tendencies and really just enjoy spending days upon days and weeks upon weeks refinishing brightwork.

Thinned varnish runs easily, does not brush as well, does not apply in sufficient thickness to get any build, the list goes on... It does wipe on when sufficiently thinned, and as a wiping finish thinned varnish works very well for craft projects! But that method will take a long time to get a decent build on an exterior boat part.

There are books out there on finishing and none have my name on them. It is uderstandable that you would not just dive off blindly and follow my advice, so let these images of two boats and other various parts I have restored stand in as my expert witnesss..

Thinner is not necessary for build coats, unless you want to prolong your work....

As an aside, don't fall into that trap of thinking you need to sand between every coat either. When in a build schedule, there is enough solvent left in previous coat that a top coat will soften it and create a chemical bond. The purpose of sanding during a refinishing job is to smooth your finish out and remove high spots. Don't sand for a mechanical bond unless you have had a long period of time elapse between coats.

Trying to help speed the job up for you guys. Trying to make it easy, because if the job becomes an easy one, as it is, folks will not be as hesitant about maintaining brightwork....

 

[Jon_E]

Hey Phil - Nice photos. You do good work. Unfortunately, we are not allowed to spray in the marina. Even in the boatyard we can't spray unless our area is tented and the we are bonded; too much danger of overspray onto other boats.

I wish I had Casey's book here with me to quote directly, but I keep it on my boat. If I remember correctly, there are only the first two or three coats that require any thinning. By the time of the third coat there is very, very little thinner.

If I may be so bold as to add a few pointers to what has been said already:

• Don't shake the varnish like paint as it introduces bubbles. Stir gently.
• If applying the varnish outdoors, finish by 11:00 a.m. as any moisture (evening dew) during drying affects the finish.
• I find that keeping tweezers on hand when brushing helps immensely. Sometimes the best brushes lose bristles onto the finish, and tweezers will allow you to easily remove it with little disturbance.

Ditto to what Phil said about a chemical bond is good enough to not require sanding. I have used the 24 hour rule, which means sanding is not required if the subsequent coat is going on in less than 24 hours since the previous coat was applied. When sanding for a mechanical bond, I remember being surprised that the grit of the sandpaper wasn't very fine, kind of coarse in fact. The book states that is to give the next coat "tooth", which makes sense.

 

[philwsailz]

Hey Phil - Nice photos. You do good work. Unfortunately, we are not allowed to spray in the marina. Even in the boatyard we can't spray unless our area is tented and the we are bonded; too much danger of overspray onto other boats.

I wish I had Casey's book here with me to quote directly, but I keep it on my boat. If I remember correctly, there are only the first two or three coats that require any thinning. By the time of the third coat there is very, very little thinner.

If I may be so bold as to add a few pointers to what has been said already:

• Don't shake the varnish like paint as it introduces bubbles. Stir gently.
• If applying the varnish outdoors, finish by 11:00 a.m. as any moisture (evening dew) during drying affects the finish.
• I find that keeping tweezers on hand when brushing helps immensely. Sometimes the best brushes lose bristles onto the finish, and tweezers will allow you to easily remove it with little disturbance.

Ditto to what Phil said about a chemical bond is good enough to not require sanding. I have used the 24 hour rule, which means sanding is not required if the subsequent coat is going on in less than 24 hours since the previous coat was applied. When sanding for a mechanical bond, I remember being surprised that the grit of the sandpaper wasn't very fine, kind of coarse in fact. The book states that is to give the next coat "tooth", which makes sense.

Just in case I somehow inferred it, I have never sprayed varnish. Everything you see of my work above is brush. Just FYI

Good points added. On the 11:00 thing, I have always adhered to this mantra: varnish when temp is rising, not falling. It sucks when you go out in the morning to look at the finish you applied the night before, only to see it all blushed and cloudy! It does go away though....