Phil, Bly and all the other participants of this list; I've noticed recently a particular trend on this list I thought, or hoped I'd never encounter. On other lists I've participated in it's called rudeness, or incivility. Now I know I'll probably get fragged for writing this but whoever "Been there" is is too chicken to use his/her real name in posts, doesn't give a private e-mail address to respond (because there's nothing of worth to respond to I guess) and generally is just starting problems. So be it I guess he/she has a right to be rude, but I thought I left all that when I quit the sailnet lists. The Hunter owners web has always been a place I cherish visiting, where other owners write about what they know, leave their name and address or e-mail, and share. Not a place where name calling prevails. I hope the original HOW returns soon, or I'll be outta here too! No I'm not being overly sensitive, but in this busy world you have to choose how to spend your time, and I don't want to spend mine reading "been there" critisize Phil, or call someone in another post a clod. I'd bet a dollar the person isn't in the owners directory and doesn't own a Hunter. So now I've vented, I'll put on my bullet-prrof vest and stand by. Please just alittle courtesy and let's have this list return to what it was designed for, and does best, serve Hunter owners who want to share and learn, not complain and name call. Bob Knott H380 S/V Serenity Harwichport, MA
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Agreed
I've noticed the same. Maybe it was the cockpit speaker thread, maybe it's new users, or possibly the disappointment that comes with Labor Day and the end of summer. But whatever's causing this, the time has come to cool things off a bit. Let me the first to say that disagreements and diverse opinions are what makes the site fun. I don't want to supress that. But the name calling, flaming, and annonymous posting adds nothing to the site or its content. Civility is a good description of what we're striving for here. Personally, I'd prefer fewer civil visitors than more angry ones.
I've noticed the same. Maybe it was the cockpit speaker thread, maybe it's new users, or possibly the disappointment that comes with Labor Day and the end of summer. But whatever's causing this, the time has come to cool things off a bit. Let me the first to say that disagreements and diverse opinions are what makes the site fun. I don't want to supress that. But the name calling, flaming, and annonymous posting adds nothing to the site or its content. Civility is a good description of what we're striving for here. Personally, I'd prefer fewer civil visitors than more angry ones.
Just make way.
Bob, I agree with you statements about civility and this site. I'm not sure if this story fits here, but I've wanted to share this story for some time. I had been around motoboats all my life but I never knew how many right away rules there were until I took a course from our local Coast Guard Auxillary. I was anxious to get a fellow co-worker to attend this class since he had a 27 ft cabin cruiser on the same lake as myself. (The lake is one one of the busiest in this part of the country and has all sizes of boats on it.) So to peek his interest, I asked him if he knew who had the right-away on the lake. Without hesitation he responded, "Whoever has drunk the most beer." I couldn't argue with him. I realized then and there, sometimes a person needs to give way even when he knows he is in the right. Sailing has taught me patience and endurance as nothing else.
Bob, I agree with you statements about civility and this site. I'm not sure if this story fits here, but I've wanted to share this story for some time. I had been around motoboats all my life but I never knew how many right away rules there were until I took a course from our local Coast Guard Auxillary. I was anxious to get a fellow co-worker to attend this class since he had a 27 ft cabin cruiser on the same lake as myself. (The lake is one one of the busiest in this part of the country and has all sizes of boats on it.) So to peek his interest, I asked him if he knew who had the right-away on the lake. Without hesitation he responded, "Whoever has drunk the most beer." I couldn't argue with him. I realized then and there, sometimes a person needs to give way even when he knows he is in the right. Sailing has taught me patience and endurance as nothing else.
I also agree
In a world that is getting more rude by the second, I treasure a forum such as this that attracts civilized, respectful people. Let's all do our part to keep this gathering place a fun, educational, and up-lifting place to exchange ideas.
In a world that is getting more rude by the second, I treasure a forum such as this that attracts civilized, respectful people. Let's all do our part to keep this gathering place a fun, educational, and up-lifting place to exchange ideas.
Smilin' Clod
Ditto's guys! And "Been There" had some fun with me, too - in my tongue-in-cheek post about "cockpit sneakers" - but also responded with an "oops" about the clod stuff. Which is for smilin', too, 'cause all of this is a chuckle! Thin skin I do not have! Michael O' (aka Miss Emily Latella)
Ditto's guys! And "Been There" had some fun with me, too - in my tongue-in-cheek post about "cockpit sneakers" - but also responded with an "oops" about the clod stuff. Which is for smilin', too, 'cause all of this is a chuckle! Thin skin I do not have! Michael O' (aka Miss Emily Latella)
Thanks Bob
Someone needed to say what you did and those contributing to the web. Its nice to know that there are others that think the same way. Here's to Bob, and also to Phil, Bly, Jim B., and the rest of those that are trying to help us on a continuing basis.
Someone needed to say what you did and those contributing to the web. Its nice to know that there are others that think the same way. Here's to Bob, and also to Phil, Bly, Jim B., and the rest of those that are trying to help us on a continuing basis.
Flaming or Who is it?
I am on another site where it is required that the writer of e-mails which can be read by all the site members have their name and e-mail address as part of the message. I think that might help. It would sure help if I want to contact someone directly because right now I have to look them up in the owners directory and not all of the repliers are listed! ChuckWolfe@innocent.com
I am on another site where it is required that the writer of e-mails which can be read by all the site members have their name and e-mail address as part of the message. I think that might help. It would sure help if I want to contact someone directly because right now I have to look them up in the owners directory and not all of the repliers are listed! ChuckWolfe@innocent.com
Stupid Questions
I previously owned a 30' Cal so joined the Cal web site. Although the site was at times interesting you became a target for asking a "stupid" question. I don't have years of experience and have been known to ask some dumb questions, but I have always had good advise and support from this site. I hope the site will continue to be helpful and not suffer from the fools with "keyboard rage". So I can continue my Hunter education and enjoy the wonderful world of sailing. Regards, Rick. Southern Cross
I previously owned a 30' Cal so joined the Cal web site. Although the site was at times interesting you became a target for asking a "stupid" question. I don't have years of experience and have been known to ask some dumb questions, but I have always had good advise and support from this site. I hope the site will continue to be helpful and not suffer from the fools with "keyboard rage". So I can continue my Hunter education and enjoy the wonderful world of sailing. Regards, Rick. Southern Cross
Me Too
I sure agree. I frequently visit the CW/SWBB site and usually just get turned off by all the bickering - and the Hunter shots that are taken. This site is a great place to learn and to generally keep in touch with my favorite passtime. I hope we can keep it that way. Phil and company, thanks for a great job.
I sure agree. I frequently visit the CW/SWBB site and usually just get turned off by all the bickering - and the Hunter shots that are taken. This site is a great place to learn and to generally keep in touch with my favorite passtime. I hope we can keep it that way. Phil and company, thanks for a great job.
Contrition and apologies
Since I am one of the subjects of this debate, let me apologize for my carelessness. (1) In my post on storage, I meant no slur to Phil. Like everyone here, I appreciate what he has done with this website. I should have phrased my comments more kindly. (I hope he still uses the questions on how many many guests we have served and bedded on our boats. This would be good information to have.) (2) The "clod" remark was a typo. It doesn't even make sense as written. Internet communication often spirals out of control, because it is short snippets of text without the cues to emotional content that there are with conversation or in longer, more thought-out, writing. Looking back, I see how my mistakes led to the complaints. I'm sorry.
Since I am one of the subjects of this debate, let me apologize for my carelessness. (1) In my post on storage, I meant no slur to Phil. Like everyone here, I appreciate what he has done with this website. I should have phrased my comments more kindly. (I hope he still uses the questions on how many many guests we have served and bedded on our boats. This would be good information to have.) (2) The "clod" remark was a typo. It doesn't even make sense as written. Internet communication often spirals out of control, because it is short snippets of text without the cues to emotional content that there are with conversation or in longer, more thought-out, writing. Looking back, I see how my mistakes led to the complaints. I'm sorry.
names please
Don't expect civility from a man who won't give his name. I've noticed, over the past year, more and more phantom "owners" who post without full names or with psuedo-names. How many of those first-name-only guys do you suppose actually own sailboats? I tend not to read their posts because these are people who fear being held accountable for their opinions. In short, don't waste your time on jerks.
Don't expect civility from a man who won't give his name. I've noticed, over the past year, more and more phantom "owners" who post without full names or with psuedo-names. How many of those first-name-only guys do you suppose actually own sailboats? I tend not to read their posts because these are people who fear being held accountable for their opinions. In short, don't waste your time on jerks.
Does "jerk" count as civility??
I have been submitting posts on this site since I bought my H30 this spring (yes, I actually own a Hunter boat!). I found it insulting and funny at the same time to see an adjective like "jerk" used in an article calling for civility. The reason I used "Bob E." for my name is that when I was a newbie to this site, that's what seemed to be the culture of the site -- most people were using first names. There were no instructions otherwise. My full name is Bob England, I live in Mississauga, Ont., Canada, and my e-mail address is rsengland@home.com. You can find me in the Hunter owner's directory. If anything I have said has offended anyone, I invite them to e-mail me to discuss it. And, by the way, I don't appreciate being called a jerk even by implication. P.S. Please, no one respond to this. This is another non-sailing thread that has been overworked!
I have been submitting posts on this site since I bought my H30 this spring (yes, I actually own a Hunter boat!). I found it insulting and funny at the same time to see an adjective like "jerk" used in an article calling for civility. The reason I used "Bob E." for my name is that when I was a newbie to this site, that's what seemed to be the culture of the site -- most people were using first names. There were no instructions otherwise. My full name is Bob England, I live in Mississauga, Ont., Canada, and my e-mail address is rsengland@home.com. You can find me in the Hunter owner's directory. If anything I have said has offended anyone, I invite them to e-mail me to discuss it. And, by the way, I don't appreciate being called a jerk even by implication. P.S. Please, no one respond to this. This is another non-sailing thread that has been overworked!
read it again
personally, i wasn't asking for civility, i was asking for names. my presumption is that if we get to know each other, civility might follow. there are practical considerations as well: if you type "bob" on the owners' directory (i actually did this), no matches will be shown because the search engine can only sort by last name, boat name, home port, and one or two others. as to the culture of this site, as i understand it, everything revolves about boat owners sharing expertise with each other. i'd just as soon not have some dude who owns half interest in an El Toro and calls himself "Flash" give me advice on how to re-cut my 438-square-foot mainsail so that it works better in a furling mast........... it's only a theory, but i suspect that there is a direct correlation between the recent influx of first-name-only owners, which i referred to in my post as "phantom owners," and the deterioration of civility on this site. (as an aside, i would note that it wasn't too long ago that boat names were generally listed at the bottom of posts.) from aboard the h410 Buoyant
personally, i wasn't asking for civility, i was asking for names. my presumption is that if we get to know each other, civility might follow. there are practical considerations as well: if you type "bob" on the owners' directory (i actually did this), no matches will be shown because the search engine can only sort by last name, boat name, home port, and one or two others. as to the culture of this site, as i understand it, everything revolves about boat owners sharing expertise with each other. i'd just as soon not have some dude who owns half interest in an El Toro and calls himself "Flash" give me advice on how to re-cut my 438-square-foot mainsail so that it works better in a furling mast........... it's only a theory, but i suspect that there is a direct correlation between the recent influx of first-name-only owners, which i referred to in my post as "phantom owners," and the deterioration of civility on this site. (as an aside, i would note that it wasn't too long ago that boat names were generally listed at the bottom of posts.) from aboard the h410 Buoyant
Nameless
I write no name or identification for a direct purpose. I cannot involve my business or personal association with Hunter in this forum. I do not currently own a Hunter. I am a qualified offshore sailor with a USCG certification and license. I have captained many a USN midshipmen crewed sailing craft offshore. I have also assembled, tested and delivered more Hunter sailboats to owners than most of this forum readership has seen. I monitor this forum simply as a means of general information on the current Hunter line of boats. Sometimes I see blatantly erroneous information published on this forum by some well meaning, but uniformed owner/operator. I will sometimes try to provide the proper data if I am confident of the subject. You do not have to be a Hunter Owner to know something about the boats and sometimes security in identification is a legal necessity. It would be good not to pass judgement on unidentified respondents when your own personal dignity is not directly attacked.
I write no name or identification for a direct purpose. I cannot involve my business or personal association with Hunter in this forum. I do not currently own a Hunter. I am a qualified offshore sailor with a USCG certification and license. I have captained many a USN midshipmen crewed sailing craft offshore. I have also assembled, tested and delivered more Hunter sailboats to owners than most of this forum readership has seen. I monitor this forum simply as a means of general information on the current Hunter line of boats. Sometimes I see blatantly erroneous information published on this forum by some well meaning, but uniformed owner/operator. I will sometimes try to provide the proper data if I am confident of the subject. You do not have to be a Hunter Owner to know something about the boats and sometimes security in identification is a legal necessity. It would be good not to pass judgement on unidentified respondents when your own personal dignity is not directly attacked.
A policy statement
I just want to clarify (or more likely introduce) the site's official policy on anonymous posting: it's OK. I agree it's better to know who you're talking to, and I personally take issue with anonymous *flamers*, but we do not require identities here. I also do not believe that anonymity and flaming are always related. There are plenty of email lists (which inherently require identification) that are pretty nasty communities. So, while we may encourage people to post at least a first name, if not a boat name, we will not insist on it. And if civility rules there will never be any need explain or apologize for it here. And now back to sailing, which is already in progress...
I just want to clarify (or more likely introduce) the site's official policy on anonymous posting: it's OK. I agree it's better to know who you're talking to, and I personally take issue with anonymous *flamers*, but we do not require identities here. I also do not believe that anonymity and flaming are always related. There are plenty of email lists (which inherently require identification) that are pretty nasty communities. So, while we may encourage people to post at least a first name, if not a boat name, we will not insist on it. And if civility rules there will never be any need explain or apologize for it here. And now back to sailing, which is already in progress...
JB's Alter ego , Relax....
Nobody was talking about you... It was about name calling, flamming, and the lack of civility in people's comments. You've always been an assest hear and this thread wasn't started to inflame you! Now, folks I started this thread, it's played out it's usefullness, let's go back to sailing, and let this be the last word. Thanks to all who replied. Bob Knott
Nobody was talking about you... It was about name calling, flamming, and the lack of civility in people's comments. You've always been an assest hear and this thread wasn't started to inflame you! Now, folks I started this thread, it's played out it's usefullness, let's go back to sailing, and let this be the last word. Thanks to all who replied. Bob Knott
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