Cherubini 25 re-build
- Thread starter Dennis Kitchen
- Start date
Beautiful work. What is your budget for time and cost from start to completion? Did you choose the h25 for any particular reason or was it just there and convenient?
Benny,
I bought the boat from a salvage auction off of Ebay. It was a hurricane Katrina victim. I saw only exterior pictures so I did't know that the interior was destroyed. It sat washed ashore for some time evidently with a foot or more of water inside which delaminated the bulkheads and cabinetry, in addition to the usual window leaks. I also discovered, which many of you already know; that the gelcoat was often terrible for these model years. ( early 80's) I have spent hundreds of hours repairing blisters and grinding out and filling spider cracks before I could paint. I started working on it in my spare time in 2006, more or less full time since ( weather and life permitting) 2013 and am still not done. 75% of the interior panels are already made and waiting for installation and finish. The v-berth and salon cushions are made and I have a box full of new parts waiting for installation; through-hulls, vented loops, water and waste tanks, speed and depth,etc. I havent kept accurate records but estimate over 3000 hours so far. As for buget? I paid $900 for it plus a loading fee, boat stands, cradle, windows, parts, epoxy, paint, supplies, lumber......, I'm into it for over $10,000 now and thats with a lot bought at wholesale! This will be a one-of -a-kind when I'm finished. The worst surprise was that the mast was bent, going to need a whole new rig.
I bought the boat from a salvage auction off of Ebay. It was a hurricane Katrina victim. I saw only exterior pictures so I did't know that the interior was destroyed. It sat washed ashore for some time evidently with a foot or more of water inside which delaminated the bulkheads and cabinetry, in addition to the usual window leaks. I also discovered, which many of you already know; that the gelcoat was often terrible for these model years. ( early 80's) I have spent hundreds of hours repairing blisters and grinding out and filling spider cracks before I could paint. I started working on it in my spare time in 2006, more or less full time since ( weather and life permitting) 2013 and am still not done. 75% of the interior panels are already made and waiting for installation and finish. The v-berth and salon cushions are made and I have a box full of new parts waiting for installation; through-hulls, vented loops, water and waste tanks, speed and depth,etc. I havent kept accurate records but estimate over 3000 hours so far. As for buget? I paid $900 for it plus a loading fee, boat stands, cradle, windows, parts, epoxy, paint, supplies, lumber......, I'm into it for over $10,000 now and thats with a lot bought at wholesale! This will be a one-of -a-kind when I'm finished. The worst surprise was that the mast was bent, going to need a whole new rig.
Fabulous! I completed a two year refit last summer on my "83 h25. You're right about the gelcoat. I spent most of my time filling voids and trying to match my off white original color. Found out that off white seems to be very difficult to match. Next time I might try painting. I was able to compound & polish the hull to an acceptable level. Looks great, I get a lot of complements. So will you. congratulations on a great job. The 25 is worth it!
If this boat sat leaned-over on its keel, how is the hull-to-keel joint? The worst thing a small, cheap, fin-keeled boat can do is be cast over on its side, especially in rough weather. When I found a (patched) hole in my hull under the PO's bottom paint, I realized this was probably what had happened and why the keel had needed to be reset (by the PO, who failed at it).
Otherwise, really pretty work here. I wish I had the money and time to devote to mine like you've done with yours.
--Just saw your other pics on this (doop! moment). I trust you are reinforcing the hull, especially inside, where the keel bolts on. Ditto on what I just said about wishing-- I had to redo mine in situ-- not the best way, but it's done now and it's reliable.
Otherwise, really pretty work here. I wish I had the money and time to devote to mine like you've done with yours.
--Just saw your other pics on this (doop! moment). I trust you are reinforcing the hull, especially inside, where the keel bolts on. Ditto on what I just said about wishing-- I had to redo mine in situ-- not the best way, but it's done now and it's reliable.
Db421,
Thanks for the comments! Re; the gelcoat- we have some H30s at our marina that have large areas of bare fiberglass matt showing on the coachroof sides. Glad yours wasn't that bad. I considered re-gelcoating but didn't want all the extra sanding. BTW, is your keel the shoal or deep? How does she sail? I've read too many comments from people who don't own one.
Thanks for the comments! Re; the gelcoat- we have some H30s at our marina that have large areas of bare fiberglass matt showing on the coachroof sides. Glad yours wasn't that bad. I considered re-gelcoating but didn't want all the extra sanding. BTW, is your keel the shoal or deep? How does she sail? I've read too many comments from people who don't own one.
Hi JCII,My keel stub looks good other than the aft 2-3 inches where its just fairing out to meet the keel. I had to rebuild this. The keel removal it's self was a fairly difficult job. Have no doubts about the holding power of 5200! I leveled the keel stub with thickened West System and leveled the top of the keel with a thin pour of West System slow cure allowed to flow out flat. This will give me a good fit as well as seal the keel bolts at the keel. The keel is now completely faired and sealed in thickened West System. In-side I will need to level the nut mounting surfaces so nuts can be tightened without bending the washers into cups as was origonal. I also completely glassed my deck seams closed on the outside of the hull. This will eliminate a source of possible leak and allows me to get rid of the fiberglass cap at the forepeak.
I have caught your blog and admired your work as well. I thought about changing the lay out some- what also but in the end chickened out and re built to standard lay-out with some upgrades. The plumbing will of course be upgraded with proper thru-hulls, tanks, anti-siphon, etc.
Thanks for your comments!
Db421,
Yeah I'm sure she won't point as well as a deep fin but that's to be expected. Still, I'm glad to hear your favorable comments. I have noticed many commentators on any forum speak only from their specific perspective; ie., if they're racers- everything must point high and fly or its junk, if they can afford a Hinckley then all Hunters are junk, etc.
I've read also the the shoal draft H25 is tender which makes me laugh because I sail a water ballasted 23.5. It's all relative...it's all good.
Yeah I'm sure she won't point as well as a deep fin but that's to be expected. Still, I'm glad to hear your favorable comments. I have noticed many commentators on any forum speak only from their specific perspective; ie., if they're racers- everything must point high and fly or its junk, if they can afford a Hinckley then all Hunters are junk, etc.
I've read also the the shoal draft H25 is tender which makes me laugh because I sail a water ballasted 23.5. It's all relative...it's all good.
Definately wouldn't call her tender. She'll go quickly up to about 15 deg.then stops there. If I go over 15 she tends to go to weather or the wind seems to spill over the top of the sail. I've never felt unsafe in this boat. I've had Catalina 25 sailors compliment me on how solid she is. Love this boat!
Dennis, from my experience the deep-draft H25 is what I call a hellandback boat, because that's where it'll take you. Expect heel angles of up to 22-25 degrees when it gets gnarly out. This won't quite reach the deck. All my dad's boat's heel; but compared to being on the Alberg boats of the late 60s and early 70s, at least you're still sailing dry.
I am not a great fan of using epoxy to set the keel, as it's very brittle, particularly WEST system. It's meant to saturate wood (hence its name), not to bond two relatively stiff surfaces. One great whack at the forward end of the keel and the whole seam will be wide-open. This is why 5200 is best for this: holding power (at which it is superb) and flexibility (at which it's pretty good above about 35 degrees F). Now if you had levelled the top of the keel, faired the bottom of the boat, added a little 6" 'glass tape here and there as needed, and then refitted the keel using 5200, you'd have something. Let the epoxy provide a surface, but not the holding power itself.
When you do open the seam, don't panic. Sand, solvent-wash, trowel in 5200 with a putty knife; paint over. And sleep easy.
On my boat I didn't trust the 'glass in the bilge because the boat had been wet once. The moisture meter, applied to the outside of the bilge, showed only a little, which I believe was either resin or dampness of bilgewater (the day I checked it, I didn't even go inside the boat). So I stopped worrying about it. When I remounted the keel I made backing blocks of G-10 for the four main bolts (the big ones) and a triangular one for the forward bolt, which is under the greatest tension when you whack a rock or hunk of iron underwater. The main bolts' blocks are two stacks with a narrow canal down the middle to allow bilgewater to flow to the pump. The forward one's corners were ground down to make it more or less level, acting as a filler of the wedge shape just forward of the bulkhead. Needless to say both of these are set in a mass of 5200. I made sure to add masking tape to the bolt threads (which is still in place) to keep the 5200 from sticking to them; if it had, you'd never be able to torque them again, which I did 2-3 times since resetting the keel. For the smaller two bolts I got made a trapezoidal plate in SS, like a washer for two bolts, since they're too close together and regular washers and flat washers lap over each other. For all the others I used really big fender washers and locknuts.
My cousin Lee said, 'Locknuts?' like this was a madcap idea. Then some machinist stopped by and reminded us that locknuts, contrary to many beliefs, are no weaker than other nuts-- they are taller because the nylon is added to, not replacing, the regular meat of the hex nut. Any properly-fitting hex nut or locknut will hold the tensile strength of the bolt threads. (I mean, duhh! --that's what it's for.) I chose locknuts because I don't want to worry about vibration (or rock strikes) shaking them loose.
I don't apply a torque wrench to these. My brother Steve the musician/woodworker/Italian-car mechanic was fixing a Craftsman lawn tractor with a Craftsman torque wrench and well before he got to the specified 19 ft-lbs the bolt snapped off in the cylinder head. I tend tighten things to an appropriate degree of 'unnngh!' (grunt). That relies on what my brother Adam the engineer/woodworker/German-car mechanic calls my good sense of mechanical sympathy, which (though I seem to have it innately) can and should be learned by anyone doing his own work on an older boat. Listen to the material and the tool. It's not you-vs-them; it's a boat. If you think you're fully in command of her, you really don't understand her!
I am with you on keeping the interior stock and just making a few 'modifcations'. When I first embarked on this project I had plenty of time and money and really thought I'd get something really cool out of it. Now I just want her back in the water and heading south. I'm not going to promise the cool cabin table is going to be finished or in place by the recommissioning party next summer. But come August I am out of NJ!
I am not a great fan of using epoxy to set the keel, as it's very brittle, particularly WEST system. It's meant to saturate wood (hence its name), not to bond two relatively stiff surfaces. One great whack at the forward end of the keel and the whole seam will be wide-open. This is why 5200 is best for this: holding power (at which it is superb) and flexibility (at which it's pretty good above about 35 degrees F). Now if you had levelled the top of the keel, faired the bottom of the boat, added a little 6" 'glass tape here and there as needed, and then refitted the keel using 5200, you'd have something. Let the epoxy provide a surface, but not the holding power itself.
When you do open the seam, don't panic. Sand, solvent-wash, trowel in 5200 with a putty knife; paint over. And sleep easy.
On my boat I didn't trust the 'glass in the bilge because the boat had been wet once. The moisture meter, applied to the outside of the bilge, showed only a little, which I believe was either resin or dampness of bilgewater (the day I checked it, I didn't even go inside the boat). So I stopped worrying about it. When I remounted the keel I made backing blocks of G-10 for the four main bolts (the big ones) and a triangular one for the forward bolt, which is under the greatest tension when you whack a rock or hunk of iron underwater. The main bolts' blocks are two stacks with a narrow canal down the middle to allow bilgewater to flow to the pump. The forward one's corners were ground down to make it more or less level, acting as a filler of the wedge shape just forward of the bulkhead. Needless to say both of these are set in a mass of 5200. I made sure to add masking tape to the bolt threads (which is still in place) to keep the 5200 from sticking to them; if it had, you'd never be able to torque them again, which I did 2-3 times since resetting the keel. For the smaller two bolts I got made a trapezoidal plate in SS, like a washer for two bolts, since they're too close together and regular washers and flat washers lap over each other. For all the others I used really big fender washers and locknuts.
My cousin Lee said, 'Locknuts?' like this was a madcap idea. Then some machinist stopped by and reminded us that locknuts, contrary to many beliefs, are no weaker than other nuts-- they are taller because the nylon is added to, not replacing, the regular meat of the hex nut. Any properly-fitting hex nut or locknut will hold the tensile strength of the bolt threads. (I mean, duhh! --that's what it's for.) I chose locknuts because I don't want to worry about vibration (or rock strikes) shaking them loose.
I don't apply a torque wrench to these. My brother Steve the musician/woodworker/Italian-car mechanic was fixing a Craftsman lawn tractor with a Craftsman torque wrench and well before he got to the specified 19 ft-lbs the bolt snapped off in the cylinder head. I tend tighten things to an appropriate degree of 'unnngh!' (grunt). That relies on what my brother Adam the engineer/woodworker/German-car mechanic calls my good sense of mechanical sympathy, which (though I seem to have it innately) can and should be learned by anyone doing his own work on an older boat. Listen to the material and the tool. It's not you-vs-them; it's a boat. If you think you're fully in command of her, you really don't understand her!
I am with you on keeping the interior stock and just making a few 'modifcations'. When I first embarked on this project I had plenty of time and money and really thought I'd get something really cool out of it. Now I just want her back in the water and heading south. I'm not going to promise the cool cabin table is going to be finished or in place by the recommissioning party next summer. But come August I am out of NJ!
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hello dennis looks excellent! Wouldvlike to know where ya got your ports at I HAVE A CHERIBINNI 30 79 model I got from an auction. Needs some work on it. need to repair some stern fiberglass to. looks like you have your act together would love some advice!!!
Hi again Lee,I paid somewhere around 120-140 dollars on a "boat show" special. Link: http://www.newfoundmetals.com/portlights/tri-matrix/rectangular-tri-matrix#size
They are made in two sizes and now available with glass lenses. I bought the plexi-glass version. The spigot cut outs are different so you'll have to relocate.
" Let the epoxy provide a surface, but not the holding power itself."JCII,
Exactly my plan. The epoxy pour I mentiontioned was just to level the keel top and seal the all -thread to the keel.
I really don't even want to fair the keel stub to keel with epoxy and glass. Some say it's a must to do this but it wasn't there origonaly. My plan was to fair it with the 5200 that squeezes out when assembled and leave it at that. What do you think? Maybe I'll put a small ring of sealant around each bolt hole and allow to cure. This will create a lot of sealing pressure and hold in the wet sealant when the keel is torqued. Although it is a great adhesive the 5200 is really here to keep water out of the seams and away from the bolts. Its the bolts that hold the the thing on.
BTW, good luck with your launch and impending travels.
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