I just read the article in Soundings and found an interesting quote. "King’s ruling curtails what he sees as an attempt by the government to overreach and prosecute U.S. citizens who travel to cuba without alleging that they’ve spent any money there. The economic embargo on cuba does not prohibit travel to Cuba but does prohibit spending money there without a license." The article also says that even with this ruling Americans that visit Cuba by boat will still be putting themselves in legal jeopardy. My question is this; if it is not illegal to visit Cuba why would our government continue to harass people who went there? Most people I know do not knowingly break the law. What little money that did leak through would be insignificant. What is the real motive for not letting boaters go there?
"Charges Dismissed In Sailraces to Cuba"
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Politics!!
The incumbent needed Florida. Cuban expatriates are a very vocal voting bloc there. Anything to get the vote, even if a law is meaningless and gets thrown out on appeal. Sorry to be cynical, but thats how "bidness" is done sometimes.
The incumbent needed Florida. Cuban expatriates are a very vocal voting bloc there. Anything to get the vote, even if a law is meaningless and gets thrown out on appeal. Sorry to be cynical, but thats how "bidness" is done sometimes.
That is the real motive
There are some large almost empty marinas in Cuba that depend on foreign cruisers. If Americans sail to Cuba they will almost certainly have to use these facilities. If there were no objections, these marinas would be full and busy and a boon to the local economy. And how many of us, once there, would just walk around and take pictures? Maybe buy a few cigars and rum? Why not just let the cruise lines go there and get it over with. Maybe they could tell the customers they are in San Juan. That way they won’t “knowingly” be breaking the law. The point of the judges ruling is a fine tuning of the enforcement of a law. You can visit Cuba under very limited conditions. If the organizers of the race get all the permits and can show that no one involved in the race will be able to spend any money while in Cuba, you might be able to make it work. These trips require a lot of pre-planning to get the proper sponsorships and approvals. A group in Cuba has to agree to pay all your expenses or you have to have an approved job like journalist or diplomat. I don’t think the “real” motive for the prohibitions is hidden at all. Our government has for decades had an embargo on Cuba. The strictness of that embargo has risen and fallen over the years. It is very likely that once Fidel is dead things will begin to change very rapidly. Until then, it’s just like marijuana; some people think it’s harmless but it’s still against the law.
There are some large almost empty marinas in Cuba that depend on foreign cruisers. If Americans sail to Cuba they will almost certainly have to use these facilities. If there were no objections, these marinas would be full and busy and a boon to the local economy. And how many of us, once there, would just walk around and take pictures? Maybe buy a few cigars and rum? Why not just let the cruise lines go there and get it over with. Maybe they could tell the customers they are in San Juan. That way they won’t “knowingly” be breaking the law. The point of the judges ruling is a fine tuning of the enforcement of a law. You can visit Cuba under very limited conditions. If the organizers of the race get all the permits and can show that no one involved in the race will be able to spend any money while in Cuba, you might be able to make it work. These trips require a lot of pre-planning to get the proper sponsorships and approvals. A group in Cuba has to agree to pay all your expenses or you have to have an approved job like journalist or diplomat. I don’t think the “real” motive for the prohibitions is hidden at all. Our government has for decades had an embargo on Cuba. The strictness of that embargo has risen and fallen over the years. It is very likely that once Fidel is dead things will begin to change very rapidly. Until then, it’s just like marijuana; some people think it’s harmless but it’s still against the law.
What I don't understand is
that Jimmy Carter made a humanitarian trip to Cuba where he met with Castro, made a speech criticizing Fidel's human rights record, and even attended a ball game as Fidel's guest. A couple of years ago Jesse Ventura, then governator of MN, made a very well publicized trip to Cuba to promote trade between Cuba and Minnesota. Both these trips were during the Bush administration's clampdown on Cuba travel. Why is it OK for the politically well connected to visit Cuba, but we commoners can't? I especially can't see how Ventura's trip promoting TRADE for God's sake, doesn't violate (or at least encorage violations) of this rule against spending money and "trading with the enemy".
that Jimmy Carter made a humanitarian trip to Cuba where he met with Castro, made a speech criticizing Fidel's human rights record, and even attended a ball game as Fidel's guest. A couple of years ago Jesse Ventura, then governator of MN, made a very well publicized trip to Cuba to promote trade between Cuba and Minnesota. Both these trips were during the Bush administration's clampdown on Cuba travel. Why is it OK for the politically well connected to visit Cuba, but we commoners can't? I especially can't see how Ventura's trip promoting TRADE for God's sake, doesn't violate (or at least encorage violations) of this rule against spending money and "trading with the enemy".
it still is against the law of the land
Folks, I agree with Dennis 110%. The law of the land is the law of the land. If you do not like the law change it the proper and correct way. Do what has to be done using the Federal Court System. Once the law is changed Do what makes you feel good. If we start doing whatever we want to do why spend the time and money making laws. Become a mass of unruled folks who want to do whatever they want to do anytime anywhere and to anyone. I bet you would be crying "We need help,we need protection ect ect. I am employed by the US Dept of Homeland Security (ex US Customs) sure there are a bunch of things I don't like to do but the Law of the Land is the Law. We make laws for the people of the US not just for one or two people in the country Aggie, I can understand why you would think that way but I don't know why. Do you really think that is the way it is. How about the people before the INCUMBENT were thay ALL from the same party since we put the embargo on Cuba? Don't think so. The story is our elected officials at the time of the embargo thought that Castro was a bad man for his country, our country and the world and I assume we still do so that is why the embargo is still on. When Castro checks out maybe it will change...even the POPE is praying for the lifting of the embargo, who knows maybe one day. So we are restricted in one way or another from doing business with Castro's Cuba. So stay away until the law is changed. Ask someone who lived in Cuba under Castro if they liked it, ask them if they still have family there...now ask them what do they think we should do? if the majority say lift it than go to court and do just that. I bet in the end of all your asking of exCubans you will not make it to court as long as Castro is in power. And that's the way the cookie crumbles. It isn't GWB but in fact it is the Congress , the Senete and the majority of the US who want the embargo. Mike
Folks, I agree with Dennis 110%. The law of the land is the law of the land. If you do not like the law change it the proper and correct way. Do what has to be done using the Federal Court System. Once the law is changed Do what makes you feel good. If we start doing whatever we want to do why spend the time and money making laws. Become a mass of unruled folks who want to do whatever they want to do anytime anywhere and to anyone. I bet you would be crying "We need help,we need protection ect ect. I am employed by the US Dept of Homeland Security (ex US Customs) sure there are a bunch of things I don't like to do but the Law of the Land is the Law. We make laws for the people of the US not just for one or two people in the country Aggie, I can understand why you would think that way but I don't know why. Do you really think that is the way it is. How about the people before the INCUMBENT were thay ALL from the same party since we put the embargo on Cuba? Don't think so. The story is our elected officials at the time of the embargo thought that Castro was a bad man for his country, our country and the world and I assume we still do so that is why the embargo is still on. When Castro checks out maybe it will change...even the POPE is praying for the lifting of the embargo, who knows maybe one day. So we are restricted in one way or another from doing business with Castro's Cuba. So stay away until the law is changed. Ask someone who lived in Cuba under Castro if they liked it, ask them if they still have family there...now ask them what do they think we should do? if the majority say lift it than go to court and do just that. I bet in the end of all your asking of exCubans you will not make it to court as long as Castro is in power. And that's the way the cookie crumbles. It isn't GWB but in fact it is the Congress , the Senete and the majority of the US who want the embargo. Mike
So! what's the 'right ' way??
Just because a law is passed doesn't make it right. There once was a law on the books that said blacks couldn't own land and women couldn't vote. The way women got to vote was to defy the "law". After many Americans(women), were tortured, jailed and instatutionalized, the "law" was finally changed. Politics makes strange bedfellows. Cuba has been a political scape goat for far too many years. Time has long since past for this government to stand up like a man and shake hands. Time to get on with life not stiffle it.
Just because a law is passed doesn't make it right. There once was a law on the books that said blacks couldn't own land and women couldn't vote. The way women got to vote was to defy the "law". After many Americans(women), were tortured, jailed and instatutionalized, the "law" was finally changed. Politics makes strange bedfellows. Cuba has been a political scape goat for far too many years. Time has long since past for this government to stand up like a man and shake hands. Time to get on with life not stiffle it.
Greed, not politics.....
Cuban travel restrictions aren't really laws in the sense that they each passed by Congress (like state and federal laws against murder, robbery, etc.) They are primarily executive orders that are enforced by the exective branch (justice, treasury) - selectively, which is within their power. IMHO, whoever is in office (dem, rep or marshan) will have to play to the Cuban expats in FL to get their vote, and that means these senseless rules will stay in force. It's nothing to do with most of us. It's the Cubans in Florida with money who will never rest until Castro is dead and they possibly get their property back (Not!). Greed trumps politics every time. Also, as for defying the law, what did MLK do? And Rosa Parks? And Mandela? If they hadn't, some changes would never happen. Like it or not, that's the way some things get done.
Cuban travel restrictions aren't really laws in the sense that they each passed by Congress (like state and federal laws against murder, robbery, etc.) They are primarily executive orders that are enforced by the exective branch (justice, treasury) - selectively, which is within their power. IMHO, whoever is in office (dem, rep or marshan) will have to play to the Cuban expats in FL to get their vote, and that means these senseless rules will stay in force. It's nothing to do with most of us. It's the Cubans in Florida with money who will never rest until Castro is dead and they possibly get their property back (Not!). Greed trumps politics every time. Also, as for defying the law, what did MLK do? And Rosa Parks? And Mandela? If they hadn't, some changes would never happen. Like it or not, that's the way some things get done.
cheep fiddle
I am and have ben a resident of florida all my life.I have seen the cuban thing from its very begining.The cubans are now into second and third generation and are still living off the goverment.They cannot be blamed because the first thing we teach them is how to work the giveaway programs we have set up.The countys around miami clamed more fema funds than any other in the state after the hurricanes even though none of the four storms came close to that area.Sooo you might say the cubans in this country are the birds in the bushes.And as every one knows a polition loves votes any way he can get them.So we keep cuba closed,the cubans that are here keep living well.the politician can keep buying votes,and the white house stays in the bushes.Everybody stays happy except the guy who wants to sail to cuba.O well all he has to do is pay taxes. whats his problem? Hope this makes someone mad
I am and have ben a resident of florida all my life.I have seen the cuban thing from its very begining.The cubans are now into second and third generation and are still living off the goverment.They cannot be blamed because the first thing we teach them is how to work the giveaway programs we have set up.The countys around miami clamed more fema funds than any other in the state after the hurricanes even though none of the four storms came close to that area.Sooo you might say the cubans in this country are the birds in the bushes.And as every one knows a polition loves votes any way he can get them.So we keep cuba closed,the cubans that are here keep living well.the politician can keep buying votes,and the white house stays in the bushes.Everybody stays happy except the guy who wants to sail to cuba.O well all he has to do is pay taxes. whats his problem? Hope this makes someone mad
Mike...
I am aware that the embargo laws have been passed decades ago. However, it does seem that they have been expanded and ramped up in the year preceding the 2004 election. "Sail" magazine and also "Sailing" did articles last spring/summer about new laws taking effect in which any boat deemed "capable" of sailing to Cuba could be confiscated by the federal government. That could be just about any production boat out there. That was what I was referring to about the current administration trying to appease a vital voting bloc in Fla.
I am aware that the embargo laws have been passed decades ago. However, it does seem that they have been expanded and ramped up in the year preceding the 2004 election. "Sail" magazine and also "Sailing" did articles last spring/summer about new laws taking effect in which any boat deemed "capable" of sailing to Cuba could be confiscated by the federal government. That could be just about any production boat out there. That was what I was referring to about the current administration trying to appease a vital voting bloc in Fla.
It's Not Only The Law of the Land
Mike I respect your service in the DHS, and simply beg to differ about it being the "law of the land and change it" approach. The real glaring problem is that this administration produced an Executive Order, which is a non-changeable "law" that says ANY boat can be confiscated if the skipper even THINKS of going to Cuba. I don't make this sh*t up, the govt does! This is the one Auggie is referring to. It is NOT a law passed by the legislative branch. It is a unilateral executive branch order. It was published in its entirety in Cruising World and as Auggie says, SAIL, last year when it was promulgated. This is bloody nonsense. How'dya change an Executive Order? The whole concept of being anti Cuban is nonsense. Castro lasted longer than the folks in the White House. It's time they recognized that the cold war is over. We're about the only country that still has its head in the sand. And because of a handful of rich expat Cubans in Miami. Geez, other smaller interest groups should have it so good. LIke us boaters. Let's get back to sailing and fill up Marina Hemingway. Stu
Mike I respect your service in the DHS, and simply beg to differ about it being the "law of the land and change it" approach. The real glaring problem is that this administration produced an Executive Order, which is a non-changeable "law" that says ANY boat can be confiscated if the skipper even THINKS of going to Cuba. I don't make this sh*t up, the govt does! This is the one Auggie is referring to. It is NOT a law passed by the legislative branch. It is a unilateral executive branch order. It was published in its entirety in Cruising World and as Auggie says, SAIL, last year when it was promulgated. This is bloody nonsense. How'dya change an Executive Order? The whole concept of being anti Cuban is nonsense. Castro lasted longer than the folks in the White House. It's time they recognized that the cold war is over. We're about the only country that still has its head in the sand. And because of a handful of rich expat Cubans in Miami. Geez, other smaller interest groups should have it so good. LIke us boaters. Let's get back to sailing and fill up Marina Hemingway. Stu
ANY boat can be confiscated ?
Does anyone know if they are actually enforcing this law? Are they stopping even non-USA boats from sailing from a USA port to Cuba? Worried.
Does anyone know if they are actually enforcing this law? Are they stopping even non-USA boats from sailing from a USA port to Cuba? Worried.
You're Lucky
Paul, You're from Canada, our great and respected neighbor to the north. You can, you know, go to Cuba freely as a tourist, and many do so. It's not so much "are they enforcing it," but WHEN they possibly could. Anytim based on the wording. As I understand it, the Executive Order applies to us down here. However, a little more review would be in order. I'll have to go back and reread it. It most likely is on Sail and Cruising World websites, and many others. The cruising community wasn't too happy. It could as well apply to us here on the "left" coast, so I've stopped dreaming about ever going to Cuba, just to be safe. Yes, I'm worried, because the order says "anyone who even thinks about going." Think about that as a precedent. "They" apply that concept to a few more things and we're all in deep trouble. Stu
Paul, You're from Canada, our great and respected neighbor to the north. You can, you know, go to Cuba freely as a tourist, and many do so. It's not so much "are they enforcing it," but WHEN they possibly could. Anytim based on the wording. As I understand it, the Executive Order applies to us down here. However, a little more review would be in order. I'll have to go back and reread it. It most likely is on Sail and Cruising World websites, and many others. The cruising community wasn't too happy. It could as well apply to us here on the "left" coast, so I've stopped dreaming about ever going to Cuba, just to be safe. Yes, I'm worried, because the order says "anyone who even thinks about going." Think about that as a precedent. "They" apply that concept to a few more things and we're all in deep trouble. Stu
Another Input
Paul, I was wrong. You're liable, too. Here's the link to the entire text to the stupidity. The worst two parts are: Section 1. The Secretary may make rules and regulations governing the anchorage and movement of any vessel, foreign or domestic, in the territorial waters of the United States, which may be used, or is susceptible of being used, for voyage into Cuban territorial waters and that may create unsafe conditions, or result in unauthorized transactions, and thereby threaten a disturbance of international relations. Any rule or regulation issued pursuant to this proclamation may be effective immediately upon issuance as such rule or regulation shall involve a foreign affairs function of the United States. Sec. 2. The Secretary is authorized to inspect any vessel, foreign or domestic, in the territorial waters of the United States, at any time; to place guards on any such vessel; and, with my consent expressly hereby granted, take full possession and control of any such vessel and remove the officers and crew and all other persons not specifically authorized by the Secretary to go or remain on board the vessel when necessary to secure the rights and obligations of the United States. So, Paul, enjoy Cuba, just don't use your boat!!! Stu
Paul, I was wrong. You're liable, too. Here's the link to the entire text to the stupidity. The worst two parts are: Section 1. The Secretary may make rules and regulations governing the anchorage and movement of any vessel, foreign or domestic, in the territorial waters of the United States, which may be used, or is susceptible of being used, for voyage into Cuban territorial waters and that may create unsafe conditions, or result in unauthorized transactions, and thereby threaten a disturbance of international relations. Any rule or regulation issued pursuant to this proclamation may be effective immediately upon issuance as such rule or regulation shall involve a foreign affairs function of the United States. Sec. 2. The Secretary is authorized to inspect any vessel, foreign or domestic, in the territorial waters of the United States, at any time; to place guards on any such vessel; and, with my consent expressly hereby granted, take full possession and control of any such vessel and remove the officers and crew and all other persons not specifically authorized by the Secretary to go or remain on board the vessel when necessary to secure the rights and obligations of the United States. So, Paul, enjoy Cuba, just don't use your boat!!! Stu
Everyone but the US
The entire EU has formalized ties with Cuba!!! The "related link" is in today's news: Bush is a really intouch with the rest of the civilized world!!!!
The entire EU has formalized ties with Cuba!!! The "related link" is in today's news: Bush is a really intouch with the rest of the civilized world!!!!
Cuban Embargo
With the rest of the world being free to trade with Cuba, I can't that Cuba is suffering by virtue of the US embargo. What is it that they could possibly need that they can get only from the US? I still resent the fact that Castro had the contempt to let the Commies install ballistic missiles just ninety miles from Florida and point them at us.
With the rest of the world being free to trade with Cuba, I can't that Cuba is suffering by virtue of the US embargo. What is it that they could possibly need that they can get only from the US? I still resent the fact that Castro had the contempt to let the Commies install ballistic missiles just ninety miles from Florida and point them at us.
Worried
Hmmmm...I would still like to know if its actually being enforced. What if you said you were sailing to the Cayman Islands. The charts for CI are on the same chart collections and Navionic cards as Cuba. Surely someone out there has sailed (or tried) to Cuba in the last year from the US.
Hmmmm...I would still like to know if its actually being enforced. What if you said you were sailing to the Cayman Islands. The charts for CI are on the same chart collections and Navionic cards as Cuba. Surely someone out there has sailed (or tried) to Cuba in the last year from the US.
Cuba 1962
Yes, Augie, but it was a different world, and I really don't think Castro had a whole lot of choice in the matter. Thirteen Days, The Missiles of October, and One Heck of a Gamble, in addition to Robert Kennedy's book, describe the conditions very well. I'm just not gonna tell anybody that I used to be dreaming about going to Cuba from San Francisco. Fair Winds, Stu
Yes, Augie, but it was a different world, and I really don't think Castro had a whole lot of choice in the matter. Thirteen Days, The Missiles of October, and One Heck of a Gamble, in addition to Robert Kennedy's book, describe the conditions very well. I'm just not gonna tell anybody that I used to be dreaming about going to Cuba from San Francisco. Fair Winds, Stu
Suffering
Believe me they're suffering. I've been there twice and if it wasn't for tourism from Canada and Europe they'd be starving. Our tour guides were all university graduates some with master degrees and PHDs but the best, perhaps only, jobs they could find were in tourism. As for the missiles... can't you guys take a joke.
Believe me they're suffering. I've been there twice and if it wasn't for tourism from Canada and Europe they'd be starving. Our tour guides were all university graduates some with master degrees and PHDs but the best, perhaps only, jobs they could find were in tourism. As for the missiles... can't you guys take a joke.
Alan, I guess you would shake hands with Hitler
if he were still alive. Forgive the Nazis for the murder of innocent people. Yes Alan, you would. Talk to the Cuban people in Florida, and maybe you would understand. Or perhaps you believe the hollocust never happened. Fidel can buy anything he wants today. Auggie Byllott got it right. For years Fidel said the embargo never hurt him untill the Soviets were no longer there to help them and the europeans stopped investing in a system than didn't work. For those who want to end the embargo, Fidel's hope is that the people is in NY and LA will be taxed heavily to give Fidel "foreing US aid" so that he can buy food from the midwest and south because Cuba is cash poor. Every european country, Mexico, and Canada, who has invested in Cuba has lost there shirt financially. Fidel is refusing to pay them back even the interest on the loans. We are the lucky ones, not the Canadians, Mexico, and europeans who's taxpayers are stuck with the unpaid loans. I know Im Cuban. abe
if he were still alive. Forgive the Nazis for the murder of innocent people. Yes Alan, you would. Talk to the Cuban people in Florida, and maybe you would understand. Or perhaps you believe the hollocust never happened. Fidel can buy anything he wants today. Auggie Byllott got it right. For years Fidel said the embargo never hurt him untill the Soviets were no longer there to help them and the europeans stopped investing in a system than didn't work. For those who want to end the embargo, Fidel's hope is that the people is in NY and LA will be taxed heavily to give Fidel "foreing US aid" so that he can buy food from the midwest and south because Cuba is cash poor. Every european country, Mexico, and Canada, who has invested in Cuba has lost there shirt financially. Fidel is refusing to pay them back even the interest on the loans. We are the lucky ones, not the Canadians, Mexico, and europeans who's taxpayers are stuck with the unpaid loans. I know Im Cuban. abe
Reminder: civility
Please folks, no flaming, name calling, personal attacks, etc. It's a volatile thread so let's be a little extra careful. Thanks!
Please folks, no flaming, name calling, personal attacks, etc. It's a volatile thread so let's be a little extra careful. Thanks!
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