Change to dagger rudder for Hunter 260

[Rabbott]

Has anyone converted the standard Hunter 260 swing rudder to a dagger rudder?

I would like to do this to give better shallow water maneuvering, especially as the 260 doesn't respond well to the motor at low speeds with the swing rudder up. With a dagger rudder I can have it 1/2 way down in shallow water and it will also not be a danger in reverse.

Does anyone have plans/dimensions for a dagger rudder to suit a Hunter 260 and/or a rudder stock to hold a dagger rudder. I have wheel steering so this makes the rudder stock design a bit more complicated.

 

[Bob 04 H260]

Interesting idea. I just backed away from a shallow ramp yesterday, I lowered the rudder halfway down as did not want it touch bottom in reverse even at a slow speed. It worked well, good control, except the wheel was heavy. I think it results in a lot of stress on the rudder too. I don't think there is any advantage to having a rudder shorter than the bottom of the outboard motor. Are you running in water so shallow you have to tilt the motor up ? How long is your motorshaft ? I'm using a 25" motor.

If I had to be able to control the boat in shallow water often because of my slip or whatever I would make a new rudder the depth of my outboard but a bit wider rather than try to engineer a dagger style. Just like a sail a short fat rudder will not perform as well as a tall thin one, so depends on what you want to trade off and how much time and money you want to put into it.

What are you using for an outboard and prop ? I find the Honda motor with the prop I have has a lot of "bite" and helps a lot in low speed control. I use reverse a lot at low speeds to pull the stern around or into the dock once a bow line is on. In high winds I'll back into a slip easily that would have been impossible bow first. Also should mention I moved the mounting points for the linkage between the rudder and motor to maximize the movement of the motor for the same amount of rotation of the rudder. I moved the mount on the rudder end away from the rudder and at the motor as close to the centre of rotation of the motor as I could. The result was an increase of about 15* of rotation of the motor on each side, it makes a big difference at low speeds.

Let us know what you do and how it works out for you, good luck, Bob

 

[Rabbott]

Thanks for your thoughts Bob. I like the idea of increasing the motor angles. Did you have to add anything to the motor to get the increased turning?

Where I sail on the Gippsland Lakes I need to cruise for reasonable distances in very shallow water in the back lakes, so need shallow rudder but on the main lakes and in heavy weather need all the rudder bite I can get. My experience with a previous boat was that a dagger rudder gave me all that adjustment and no chance of breaking something if motoring in reverse. Another boat before that had a swing rudder - which I was glad to get away from.

Does you boat steer OK with the rudder up and just using the motor?

My motor is a Honda 10hp 'Power Thrust' with 4 blade 10 x 6 1/2 prop.

If I motor with the rudder up all is well between ~1-2K but above this the boat veers a lot. And at low speeds I only have steering if the motor is in gear. If I try to drift in somewhere with the motor in neutral I have no steering; unlike my previous boat.

I have to maneuver into my very shallow, narrow berth forwards at low speeds, usually with a strong tail wind, so motoring in under speed and trusting on reverse is not an
option.

All this is solved with dagger rudder if I can arrange it.

 

[Bob 04 H260]

looks like we have the same motor ! good choice Mate.

I did not add anything to motor or rudder just drilled two new holes to move the connectors further from the rudder and closer to the motor.

I find the weight of this boat an advantage when docking, I come in at a medium speed then shift to neutral and 2 or 3 slips away and it just coasts in, but I have a rudder !

I can see the problem is without a rudder the motor is not going to turn you unless you give some revs. Maybe you have to come into the slip in reverse with no rudder ???

I suppose the centre board is all the way up too so that does not help if there is any wind.

When you say the rudder is up, is out of the water or just below the surface almost horizontal ?

I have seen guys add a pintles to the back of the rudder so they drop a small electric trolling motor on there just as they enter the marina and they use this for docking, is there any way this system could help you ?

The best design I have seen for a dagger rudder is on the new Seaward RK26 boats. The rudders float, so easy to lift up and down with one hand. See if you can get a look at one , if not I know a guy that bought one last year, I'll see if he can send you a picture of it, but better if you can see one yourself.

Bob

 

[Bob 04 H260]

good video of Seaward rudder system here, http://www.seawardyachts.com/32RKvideos.html

Bob

 

[BrianW]

Rabbott, my H26 is very similar to your H260. A few years back, my rudder mount broke. I had to completely raise the broken rudder out of the water and motor 3 miles back to my slip using only my outboard for steering. At about 3 knots, my boat started a back and forth oscillation that made it almost unsteerable, even with the centerboard completely lowered. Even when I slowed to 2 knots, I had to correct my steering with the outboard tiller every 10 seconds or so to keep a semi-straight course. It made for a very long and tiring trip back. BrianW

 

[Rabbott]

Thanks for the link to the Seaward rudder Bob. It is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. And the blurb on the web site about dagger rudders is exactly the reasons I want to go this way. Will try and source in Aus but may also try obtaining from Seward or from Joel at IdaSailor (RudderCraft).

Brian, glad to hear that it's not just my boat set up that causes such veering when motoring without rudder. Although, disappointed that it seems to be part of the 260 design. I'm surprised it doesn't get much airplay on the forums. Any thoughts about a solution?

Another question, do either of you have problems with the aft berth being head down (ie list to starboard) when there are two sleeping there. My wife had to sleep on the settee as she couldn't put up with "sleeping on her head".

 

[Bob 04 H260]

good luck with the rudder design, post a picture when you get a solution.

We have never noticed a trim issue when using the aft berth. We did find the foam was too thin after a week or so.

I do have a smaller starter battery back there and my main house bank is heavy and mounted in the settee just forward of the head bulkhead. I did this to balance out the heavy outboard and battery back there to starboard. How is the boat trimmed with no one in the berth ?

I have used the level app on my ipod in bubble mode to check the boat trim when sitting in the water. The way I have it loaded it is close to level if measured on the cabin sole, table, bridge deck. I was quite impressed Hunter can build a vessel so all these surfaces are all level in two directions at the same time !

fair winds, Bob

 

[Rabbott]

I was thinking of doing exactly that with batteries.

What size batteries do you have as starter and house? What size wire to house battery?

The other alternative was large extra water bladder in port midship locker.

 

[Bob 04 H260]

The problem I found with a battery in the settee is the height, most are too tall. I did find a 110 amp hr wet cell battery that just works, weighs about 80 lbs. I have looked at the Lifeline batteries and will probably go with two of those next, looks like it will fit. They have a great reputation and are agm. As a starter battery I recycled two small 12 Volt agm wheelchair batteries that were given to me. Not too heavy and they start the motor easily, they have no makings or numbers, only weigh about 35 lbs.

Both batteries have 70 amp breakers beside them, the one for the forward settee battery is in the cabinet in the head. I think I used #6 wire to connect it all up, I'll check that when I'm next there. The battery selector switch is beside the starter battery, you have to open the door to use it. I have an Xantrex 40 Amp smart charger mounted at the foot of the aft berth on the back of the wet locker. The charger has a remote control panel beside the main 12 volt panel in the galley.

I just aded a 30 amp shore power inlet and breaker panel.

Bob

 

[soling42]

With all the shallow water we encounter I'm very spoiled with our kick up rudder and couldn't imagine how a blade would endure my indifference to the bottom rising to meet me. That said I've read too many posts about 26/260 rudder failure in harsh conditions or on longer cruises like we enjoy so I built a spare that'll fit in the bottom of the port lazerette of our 260 along with the spare tiller. It's far shorter than the original but it's a fine temporary replacement to salvage what might otherwise become a ruined day/weekend.

As for the list to starboard, I immediately realized that these light weight boats had a design issue with the heavy gear of the galley/outboard/batteries all on the same side. I moved my battery set(2 group 27) to the void behind the bulkhead of the port side aft bunk and it pretty much solved the starboard list. They're not the easiest to get to but it seemed better than giving up valuable storage in readily accessible spots elsewhere and it's worked out very well.

The collapsing aft bunk foam was an issue for us too but it was merely the fact that the foam has a lifespan of only a few years and begins to loose its density rapidly after that. I poured money on it($200 in replacement foam) and we sleep fine now.

Hope everyone is having a great season while we retreat to the shade down here. Mike

 

[Bob 04 H260]

I just came back from a 10 day sail on a new Seaward RK26 with the dagger board rudder. A very nice well built boat.

A few observations I made,

-with a dagger rudder all the rudder is behind the rudder post so the tiller has significant pressure on it whenever you are sailing, even though it has quite a long tiller, probably not a concern with a wheel but with a tiller........also with this type of design on a 260 it might roundup sooner ?

- because the rudder has to be able to be able to easily slide up and down it has a bit of play that can not be removed, with the need for a long tiller the play becomes significant while on the helm

-because it can not kickup it was a concern in shallow areas, as it was raised it created some control issues when anchoring, docking

Bob

 

[Kivalo]

Has anyone converted the standard Hunter 260 swing rudder to a dagger rudder?

I would like to do this to give better shallow water maneuvering, especially as the 260 doesn't respond well to the motor at low speeds with the swing rudder up. With a dagger rudder I can have it 1/2 way down in shallow water and it will also not be a danger in reverse.

Does anyone have plans/dimensions for a dagger rudder to suit a Hunter 260 and/or a rudder stock to hold a dagger rudder. I have wheel steering so this makes the rudder stock design a bit more complicated.

I would be very interested in this as well. When its windy I cannot control the boat well enough to bring her to the dock without a second person.

Brad

s/v KIVALO

 

[Rabbott]

Having had 3 trailer=sailers with swing rudders and one with a dagger blade I would MUCH prefer a dagger blade.

Any slack caused by the gap to allow raising can be dealt with by some system of locking, even bungy cord around the rudder and stock. There shouldn't be any weather helm if the angle of the pintels and rudder set up is well done. And running into the mud is no problem unless at speed which shouldn't be happening when in shallow water.

As for control with the rudder 1/2 up that is what it is all about. A swing rudder 1/2 way up is asking for trouble forward or astern, whereas a dagger blade can be fine tuned for the depth and still give good steerage.

3 cheers for dagger blades!