chain plates seal and deck core check on O'Day 23

[jbrosecity]

Hi... I recently bought a 1982 O'Day 23... I have been out on it about 10 times now... and occasionally in 25+ on our lake, when I sailed only the main. The boat handles admirably. But we had a heavy rainstorm the other night and while the boat was moored water got in thru the chain plates on both sides. It was an obvious guess but I verified this by running a hose on both sides with my wife inside. So I removed the four screws on the beauty plates, applied some silicone sealant which was all I had, and when I went to snug down the beauty plates again I found the holes were stripped. Ugh. So I went out and bought some larger stainless screws and drilled the four corner holes larger... still stripped out. So I began to do some research on the forums and learned more than I would like to know, I'm afraid. But since every boat is constructed differently, I was wondering if anyone on this forum has any experience with the chain plates and deck area on an ODay 23.

By poking a nail thru one of these stripped holes and moving it around, I can detect that the top of the deck and inner cabin skin or interior overhead are about 5/8" apart. There would seem to be a hollow gap between the upper deck and the inner skin and since the deck seems to be about 1/8" thick, I estimate that gap somewhere about half an inch. What I have NO idea about is whether the deck of an 82 ODay 23 is hollow core or balsa core or what? If it was originally balsa core there is plenty of reason to suspect that the area at least around the chain plates has deteriorated over time. There is plenty of evidence of former leaking, water stains and such, inside the cabin... though nothing excessive... nothing that catches the eye without close inspection. [[OK so according to one of the posts it was definitely balsa core and is probably deteriorated, but since the deck seems sound enough and the chain plates bolt to the bulkhgead below with four hex bolts... and these bulkheads seem perfectly solid... I have no worries about soundness]]

Since the inner skin of the cabin does not permit inspection from underneath there would appear to be no easy way to determine whether she suffers from "soggy core" significantly weakened structure or what. The boat is in excellent shape from all outward appearances... looks great and sails great. But what I have to wonder is whether the chain plates would be significantly weakened from what may be years of water leakage. I would love to know exactly how the chain plates on the ODay 23 are secured... [[this question was answered both in a following post and upon closer inspection. The chain plate passes through the deck and goes straight down and is mounted to the bulkhead below with four hex bolts and the wood is perfectly solid so soundness is no longer a concern.]]

I am going to attempt to reseal the beauty plates with polysulfide Life Calk from West Marine [[I used their "Polyether Multi-Caulk Sealant"]after reading posts on the subject and am going to try using some sort of thin wall anchor to mount the four corner stainless screws for the beauty plates [[this was wonderfully successful... I just had to flle them down and make them shorter to fit the space between the deck and the inner cabin liner]]. I am allowing the Caulk to set a bit before snugging down the plates, but any additional advice and particular experience with this sort of leaking would be much appreciated. She's a gorgeous boat, almost new looking now that I have buffed out the gel coat and I would like to keep her that way.

 

[HukilauMike]

The chain plates come through the deck and through the fiberglass cabin liner (the cabin "ceiling"), and are bolted in the cabin to the plywood bulkhead, right out in the open. No hidden attachment points. Water intrusion along the chain plates into the cabin on these boats is common. Significant intrusion almost always ends with the water wicking along the entire assembly and soaking the bulkhead. If the bulkhead is sound at the attachment points, it may be that the worst of the water got to the deck core. And yes, the decks of the Oday 23 are balsa-cored. I don't know for sure if they were made with solid glass at the chain plate attachment points, but its possible. You might try asking Rudy at D&R Marine if he knows. Rudy used to work at Oday and is the guru of all things Oday. The only other way I can think of to know for sure is to drill. If you need to remove soggy core material, it is a big, messy job.

For the deck (beauty) plates attachment screws, don't mess with wall anchors; fill the existing holes with thickened epoxy and then redrill them. Absolutely waterproof and forever.

 

[LordNelson]

it is likely to be balsa core. you could take a small bent nail and insert it into the screw hole(s) and spin it around. if it's balsa you will most likely pull some wet wood stuck to the nail.

 

[jbrosecity]

thanks guys... I was out on the boat today. And yes I did find the chain plates strapped with four hex bolts to the bulkheads amidships. The bulkheads seem sound enough and so I do not have any concern about the load bearing ability. Good to know the deck is balsa cored and I suspect that core was probably deteriorated years ago before I got the boat. But the deck seems sound enough so I am not too worried. Once I get a good seal to keep out additional water, given the curvature of the deck I think whatever water is trapped in there will seep down and out at the edges over time in the hot texas sun.

I used West Marine "Polyether Multi-Caulk Sealant" under the beauty plates, and as per a forum post I read elsewhere, I am letting the caulk set up overnighjt before I snug down the beauty plates to the deck. The problem I had with the four hold down screws not catching in the fiberglass was easily solved. I was successful filing down and shortening brass drywall screw type anchors (to the proper lenth to fit the space between the deck and the cabin "ceiling") and then screwing the anchors (coated with caulk) into the fiberglass for a very solid mount and then was able to secure the "beauty plates" down into them over the area snugly. Worked like a charm.

 

[emergpa1]

thanks guys... I was out on the boat today. And yes I did find the chain plates strapped with four hex bolts to the bulkheads amidships. The bulkheads seem sound enough and so I do not have any concern about the load bearing ability. Good to know the deck is balsa cored and I suspect that core was probably deteriorated years ago before I got the boat. But the deck seems sound enough so I am not too worried. Once I get a good seal to keep out additional water, given the curvature of the deck I think whatever water is trapped in there will seep down and out at the edges over time in the hot texas sun.

I used West Marine "Polyether Multi-Caulk Sealant" under the beauty plates, and as per a forum post I read elsewhere, I am letting the caulk set up overnighjt before I snug down the beauty plates to the deck. The problem I had with the four hold down screws not catching in the fiberglass was easily solved. I was successful filing down and shortening brass drywall screw type anchors (to the proper lenth to fit the space between the deck and the cabin "ceiling") and then screwing the anchors (coated with caulk) into the fiberglass for a very solid mount and then was able to secure the "beauty plates" down into them over the area snugly. Worked like a charm.

I had to cut out and rebuild the deck around my chainplates, and under the mast on my Oday 26. It was not difficult but took a long time since i had never done that before and spent more time figuring it out than the hands on part.
I think your approach to your leak is sound since the forces are exerted to the bulkhead and not the deck. I like the way you just got in there and did i!. Did you core out the screw holes and fill them with epoxy? If you do that then you are sealing the rest of the core from the moisture that will come in through the screw holes as you caulk begins to turn loose. But if you didn't you can look into that and try it next time. Your approach might not be wise for a soft core in other areas say the mast or the wenches or even the grab rails.
At the end of this season you might want to drop mast and reseat your mast plate and "seal the core" where the bolts go through. This project could save you lots of booty and time down the road. You can find a discussion of re attaching through-deck hardware on this forum, in many of my posts, on mainesail's do it yourself website, or don casey's "good old boat", which all boat owners should own.
Congrats on completing your (first?) deck hardware resealing project.
Happy sails
keith

 

[jbrosecity]

Did you core out the screw holes and fill them with epoxy? If you do that then you are sealing the rest of the core from the moisture that will come in through the screw holes as you caulk begins to turn loose. But if you didn't you can look into that and try it next time....
At the end of this season you might want to drop mast and reseat your mast plate and "seal the core" where the bolts go through. This project could save you lots of booty and time down the road.

No I did not core out the screw holes at all. I simply drilled out the 4 holes a bit to around 5/16" I think it was... then I pre threaded each hole with a new 1" insert. Then I filed the inserts down to a length that would screw all the way down flush, and filed the first ring of thread so it would start into the pre threaded hole. First I experimented without any caulk and found that the inserts screwed down really tight such that with moderate strength on the screwdriver I could not make them any tighter and they did not slip. Then I backed them out, coated them with West Marine caulk and screwed them down tight again. I had already drilled out the holes in the beauty plate to a larger size (when trying larger screws initially) and this was the right size so I could run a small phillips straight down thru the beauty plate to snug up each insert. That was essential to getting the inserts in straight. This worked like a charm.

As mentioned, I applied a liberal layer of caulk under the beauty plate and pressed the beauty plates down with light finger pressure, and then let it set up overnight before I screwed the four screws into the inserts, producing a slight bulge around the edges. If I can back the four stainless screws out without unscrewing the inserts next year when I recaulk (I plan to do it annually) then I will simply leave the inserts in place, scrape away the old caulk and redo it. If the inserts come out with the screws (which is possible once the caulk is hard) then I will consider coring out the area slightly larger than the beauty plate, make a little form out of a beer can and filling the whole area with marinetex and then screwing my inserts into that.

"Dropping the mast" is a task I don't relish... reading over some of the posts, it appears this is a tough job since the ODay 23 does not have a hinged base like my Catalina 22 does, for example. It appears you have to lift the mast straight up off the mounting post or "tabernacle" I guess it is called, and then somehow lay it down carefully. Without a crane to some tall structure to rig a block and tackle from, that sounds like a very tricky task and something I might want 4-6 guys on hand to help with. Catalina's hinged mast step is a HUGE improvement there, I think. When you talk about "reseat your mast plate" I presume you mean to remove the post and recaulk the bottom plate and the screw holes? I have not read anything about that so it's an imaginary project at this point... any advice on that one much appreciated.

 

[Joe11688]

No I did not core out the screw holes at all. I simply drilled out the 4 holes a bit to around 5/16" I think it was... then I pre threaded each hole with a new 1" insert. Then I filed the inserts down to a length that would screw all the way down flush, and filed the first ring of thread so it would start into the pre threaded hole. First I experimented without any caulk and found that the inserts screwed down really tight such that with moderate strength on the screwdriver I could not make them any tighter and they did not slip. Then I backed them out, coated them with West Marine caulk and screwed them down tight again. I had already drilled out the holes in the beauty plate to a larger size (when trying larger screws initially) and this was the right size so I could run a small phillips straight down thru the beauty plate to snug up each insert. That was essential to getting the inserts in straight. This worked like a charm.

As mentioned, I applied a liberal layer of caulk under the beauty plate and pressed the beauty plates down with light finger pressure, and then let it set up overnight before I screwed the four screws into the inserts, producing a slight bulge around the edges. If I can back the four stainless screws out without unscrewing the inserts next year when I recaulk (I plan to do it annually) then I will simply leave the inserts in place, scrape away the old caulk and redo it. If the inserts come out with the screws (which is possible once the caulk is hard) then I will consider coring out the area slightly larger than the beauty plate, make a little form out of a beer can and filling the whole area with marinetex and then screwing my inserts into that.

"Dropping the mast" is a task I don't relish... reading over some of the posts, it appears this is a tough job since the ODay 23 does not have a hinged base like my Catalina 22 does, for example. It appears you have to lift the mast straight up off the mounting post or "tabernacle" I guess it is called, and then somehow lay it down carefully. Without a crane to some tall structure to rig a block and tackle from, that sounds like a very tricky task and something I might want 4-6 guys on hand to help with. Catalina's hinged mast step is a HUGE improvement there, I think. When you talk about "reseat your mast plate" I presume you mean to remove the post and recaulk the bottom plate and the screw holes? I have not read anything about that so it's an imaginary project at this point... any advice on that one much appreciated.

You should convert the mast step over to a hinged step. You won't be sorry. Rudy Nickerson at D&R Marine http://www.drmarine.com/ can set you up with a stainless steel Dwyer hinge and a utility plate to go under it. Two important things need to be heeded; Stainless steel and Aluminum can cause corrosion through electrolysis when they are put together. So you need to insulate the two metals. Some guys use plastic from a milk jug. I used fiberglass epoxy and let it dry first before I slid the hinge plug into the mast. The other thing is the length of the stays. If the new hinge is the same height as the old Tabernacle, your stays will come right, but that isn't always the case when you're doing a conversion like this unless of course you're planning on replacing the old stays. I mounted my Kenyon hinge tabernacle and utility plate on a block of Teak to make up the difference. I didn't know this at the time, but just that extra 1 1/8" height made a big difference years later when I started using a Gin Pole to raise my mast with the CDI furler attached,--all by myself. The height of block of wood allowed me to raise my mast from a lower position on my boat. Now, I'm not sure that it would work for you on your 23 because of the two different boat designs, but if your stays are in excellent condition and you want to use them, you need to make up the difference if you have to. Check out my Owner's Photo Album on this site for a better understanding of what is needed.
Joe

 

[emergpa1]

That is what i like about working on my boat, i can get a lot of ideas and try them out and some work and some do not. You looked at the problem, and drawing from you own experience and what advice you got, and came up with your own solution. If it works, great, if not, then you can modify and try something a little different next time.
If you like tinkering and doing things yourself, then order "THIS OLD BOAT", by Don Casey, and subscribe to Good Old Boat magazine. It is a little expensive but worth every penny and more.
If you are not much of a tinkerer, then just enjoy the boat and do like a lot of folks in my marina who have tarps spread to cover leaks when in dock.....they seem perfectly content and as happy as i am with my polished and over-fed little beauty! haha
I get to go out tomorrow A,M, i am going to work on my hatch screen set up a little bit, and check to see if my chainplates leaked during this last storm. I had to reaseat them last week. I am also going to attach my Jib sheet blocks (the forward ones i never reattached during my rebuild). Then break out the canvas and take her out. Thats the best part. In the pic below my daughter lifts her glass to all you good old boater's!
Cheers!
Keith

 

[jbrosecity]

turns out my boat does have a hinged step after all as I looked at it more closely... Has two pins one fore and one aft and apparently I'm told you can pull one or the other depending in which direction you want to lower the mast. Neat! Inside there are four stainless nuts on the cabin ceiling corresponding to the four bolts on the mast step. I guess that is an acceptable installation. I probably would have had a stainless platge cut to distribute the load and drilled thru that on the overhead and run the bolts thru it before adding the nuts, but my guess is it has been this way quite a while so I spose it is ok as it is. Anyhow when it comes time to unstep the mast, I guess i am all set. Shouldn't be much tougher than it is on my Catalina 22 MKII which I have done several times now. I ran a hose over the area around the m,ast step for a few minutes and do not detect any signs of leakage so I think I'm gonna leave well enough alone for now... and just enjoy some sailing! Had a spectacular 10-14 on Canyon Lake yesterday with the Angelina... rigged the 150 jennie and we were cruising all afternoon at 6-7 kts. wonderful day

 

[emergpa1]

turns out my boat does have a hinged step after all as I looked at it more closely... Has two pins one fore and one aft and apparently I'm told you can pull one or the other depending in which direction you want to lower the mast. Neat! Inside there are four stainless nuts on the cabin ceiling corresponding to the four bolts on the mast step. I guess that is an acceptable installation. I probably would have had a stainless platge cut to distribute the load and drilled thru that on the overhead and run the bolts thru it before adding the nuts, but my guess is it has been this way quite a while so I spose it is ok as it is. Anyhow when it comes time to unstep the mast, I guess i am all set. Shouldn't be much tougher than it is on my Catalina 22 MKII which I have done several times now. I ran a hose over the area around the m,ast step for a few minutes and do not detect any signs of leakage so I think I'm gonna leave well enough alone for now... and just enjoy some sailing! Had a spectacular 10-14 on Canyon Lake yesterday with the Angelina... rigged the 150 jennie and we were cruising all afternoon at 6-7 kts. wonderful day

I remember bringing up putting a stainless steel "backing plate" under my mast, like we do for most of our other high stess through deck fittings. It seemed logical to me. However, I believe it was trinkka who pointed out that the reason for not having a backing plate on the mast was because demasting is not uncommon, and it is best to have it break away from four smallish bolt holes than take the hole cabin roof off!!! So much for my newby logic.

I am at work right now, and am having a rare,( very rare ) slow day, i wish i were on the boat!!!
keith
keith

 

[jbrosecity]

hey that's an interesting perspective for sure... makes sense you would rather have the four bolts rip out in a calamity than tear the whole cabin roof off. Thanks for the input... I'd rather be _/)......_/)......._/)......._/)