Cetol vs West Marine WoodShield

Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
On varnish.. To begin, Jibes, one of these is a Alden 54' that seems to get used fairly regularly, I'm thinking one of those Iron Man movies, part 16 or some such. Revolution, and the series Revenge maybe......I'm not sure, none of those turkeys would I sit through to see the boat. Folks do a lot of filming here in Wilmywood.. The original poster made an inquiry into one type of finish versus another. Ok. I am a die HARD varnisher that in my opinion, anything other than fine varnish is unacceptable on a boat. If I'm not mistaken, by the definition of "brightworks" is indicative of varnish applied. Not oil, nor paint. I have tried a couple of tricks other than varnish, and it has failed repeatedly next to varnish correctly applied. I'm kind of curious about Awlgrips version of varnish for a couple of reasons. I do like their paint, and I want to see how it stacks up to fine varnish. Hopeful...but dubious.. I could write another book about varnishing, but lacking that, there are plenty of publications that will tell you the indisputable facts about varnishing. The Brightworks Companion is one. Don Casey even has good info on varnish. Do not try and cheat the varnish. You will not win. I've run out of room to write about this on iPad..and I'll try and throw a picture up later.....when I'm not sitting in Best Buys parking lot....
thats a good idea Chris. Why not use house paint on the wood? Houses are getting all kinds of rotten weather and hold up for about five years. Or maybe we can invent vinyl siding for the wood on our boats? I know someone that swears by Minwax SparFinish, the stuff you get at Hardware stores. I've never used varnish in 30 years and don't intend to start.
 
Oct 17, 2011
2,809
Ericson 29 Southport..
No, don't start now. It's a sickness with no known cure. Truth is, I hate to paint with a passion. But the varnish is another matter with me. Seems like a drug or something, and I truly cannot explain it..

I have seen paint covered varnish to protect the finish in harsh climates. It will work for awhile, but even then, if the first coat ain't right, it will all fall off directly. And I will not lie to anybody and tell them that maintenance coats are not necessary. Just like waxing or changing the oil, this too shall be done. It CAN be a frustrating learning curve, and maybe that's another reason I like it. Nothing easy is fun. At least to me.

And like Stu's chain of events, while so true, I never disparage the sailor that doesn't want to go through with this. It is time consuming work. Or very expensive if you hire it out.
 
May 31, 2004
858
Catalina 28 Branford
So why use anything but varnish?

Because putting varnish on right is a very time-consuming process. And assuming you get it right, even if it is very durable, it still requires time consuming maintenance.

For me, it comes down to a very simple choice: do I want to perform "easy" maintenance more frequently, or difficult maintenance less frequently?

Teak oil looks nice and is really easy to apply, but I've found it looks good for a month, tops. Cetol is almost as easy to apply, but will last for several months. Varnish is tricky to apply, but if done right, it will look good and last for an entire season or more.

Maintenance for teak oil is really simple; just put more on. Maintenance for Cetol is not quite as simple. Sometimes you have to remove a little of the damaged material or give a very light sanding before you slather more on. Maintenance for varnish is in some ways more difficult than applying it in the first place. And woe to the one who lets his varnish deteriorate to the point where you have to start over.

For me, I've found that Cetol is the best compromise. Your mileage may vary.
 
Dec 29, 2008
805
Treworgy 65' LOA Custom Steel Pilothouse Staysail Ketch St. Croix, Virgin Islands
I, too, am a die hard varnisher, frustrating as it may be. I just don't like the color of Cetol - doesn't look right to me, at least the ones I'e seen. I wasn't keeping up with the varnish - it was coming off faster than I could put it down. So, I spent a season sewing covers for all the major parts, then started over. We will see if I can keep up with it now that I am retired and don't have to choose between sailing and varnishing on weekends. I figure if I spend every Tuesday morning between 8 and 10 doing touch up varnishing, I can keep it up. Our boat is steel, so I figure I will have to spend Thursday mornings chipping and coating decks and such...
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
One winter I was doing some project at home with epoxy. On a whim, I dipped the front end of the B235 tiller in the epoxy. It lasted the years i had the boat. I wonder if anyone has just epoxied the teak trim???
 

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
One winter I was doing some project at home with epoxy. On a whim, I dipped the front end of the B235 tiller in the epoxy. It lasted the years i had the boat. I wonder if anyone has just epoxied the teak trim???
Yes, I have done this with a number of teak parts. The folks at Chesapeake Light Craft, a teak-ply kit boat company have built an entire boat-building process around epoxy-coating teak and teak ply. You still have to lay down a UV barrier layer, like a sunscreen, because an epoxy film layer will cloud, crack and fail. I have used spar varnish with good effect, also brightsides marine enamel provides good protection. One thing that I did, that I believe most refinishers do not do is that I completely coat the part, including the unexposed areas that fasten to the boat. This makes the job even more tedious. But once moisture gets inside wood it swells and splits off any finish.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
I had a wood boat several years ago that had been "varnished" with epoxy by a previous owner. It had done exactly as Gunni suggests, clouded, cracked and peeled from the substrate. It looked horrible. I bet it looked good when first done though. Problem is though that there was no way it would last. The finished was doomed by not having been topped off with a coat or two of UV-stable varnish and it had received exactly zero maintenance.

As a member of the ACBS I am a wood boat follower, and can tell you that many of the trailer queens you see at the old wood boat shows have a base coat of epoxy laid over a well-prepped raw wood surface. The advantage of the practice is that you get a VERY high solids build coat that is thick; it gets you a skin of material that is as thick as even 10 or more coats of varnish from a single coat and it is self-levelling. The sanding down to a mirror-flat surface can usually be done much more quickly than with the relatively slow "varnish, let dry, sand, varnish, let dry, repeat as necessary over the next 30 days" method. The epoxy trailer queens will still always have UV-inhibited varnish, often several coats, in order to give that "varnish" look that you just can't get with Cetol, or even spar urethane, which has a more "plasticky" look to it.

The other show boats done in a traditional method will often have 30 coats of varnish build up, where each successive coat is applied, then the high spots are sanded down with each successive coat slowly filling grain and other low spots. I usually did 14 to 16 coats of varnish on my boats....

I did one boat as an experiment. I used oil-based deck and porch paint in a satin finish for my topsides, and I used spar urethane for the bright work. The boat is beautiful, and to the casual observer is a stunner, but a wood boat afficionado can walk up to the brightwork and immediately tell it isn't varnish. Spar urethane is also a hell of a lot slower than even real varnish; it just doesn't dry very quickly and is always slightly soft compared to varnish, so surfaces are more easilly scuffed.

I am rambling but let me get to two key points and a debatable opinion:

1. Teak and Mahogany are naturally oily. Applying any finish to freshly sanded Teak or Mahogany is like trying to paint the surface of a pond. Your finish will not stick, but rather just lies on the surface. You need to use a good solvent, I usually recommend acetone, and scrub the surface well to remove surface oils from the wood. Get a good pile of clean white rags, soak them liberally and go at it. The rags are going to turn red as the oils are removed from the wood. Changing rags often, scrub liberally until your rags quit changing color. You will know at this point that you have removed surface oils to the depth of penetration of the acetone.

After drying out, (it doesn't take long, acetone flashes off FAST!) move QUICKLY into finish mode. I am talking minutes, not hours. You want to get a thinned-down first coat of finish down, (whatever finish) quickly, before the oils down deeper in the wood have a chance to migrate back to the surface. The thinned first coat will penetrate INTO the wood, rather than lying on the surface and will provide a mechanical grip that subsequent layers can effectively adhere to. If your finish is IN the wood rather than just ON the wood it will have way less opportunity to peel.

2. There are varnishes out there that can be applied VERY quickly. Intelux has their Jet Speed product which can be over-coated twice every day. in a climate-controlled area, (garage) you can get 10 coats on in a week. This gets you a quick high-build with multiple coats, and as a benefit, you can move into a finish schedule that only has you sanding every fourth coat, as opposed to after every coat. This is possible due to solvents migration. IF you can get a subsequent coat on top of a dry-but-still-green prior coat, the two will fuse together chemically without the need for the mechanical bond that sanding provides. This is extremely beneficial if you have done any staining work prior to finishing, as you can have a thicker coating at first sanding, helping prevent sand-through of the stain. Understand that even with Jet Speed, one needs to apply a final top coating of UV stabilized varnish. I like Interlux Schooner personally, but have also used Epiphanes with good results.

3. Lastly, (and some will debate this) there are some people who believe that the last coat you apply prior to putting a piece of brightwork into service should be left as applied and un-sanded. Their rationale is that the UV inhibitors in the material migrate to the surface of that coat and that final sanding and bufing is a no-no in that it theoretically removes the UV layer in the final coat. I have no experience with this, and Chris P. might have insight, but know I fall into the "I don't want to redo it any more than necessary" camp so for all my brightwork projects that will be exposed outdoors, I never sand a final coat.

Put it this way: If I decide I don't like how the last coat looks, it ain't the last coat...
 

Attachments

May 31, 2004
858
Catalina 28 Branford
I had a wood boat several years ago that had been "varnished" with epoxy by a previous owner. It had done exactly as Gunni suggests, clouded, cracked and peeled from the substrate. It looked horrible. I bet it looked good when first done though. Problem is though that there was no way it would last. The finished was doomed by not having been topped off with a coat or two of UV-stable varnish and it had received exactly zero maintenance.

As a member of the ACBS I am a wood boat follower, and can tell you that many of the trailer queens you see at the old wood boat shows have a base coat of epoxy laid over a well-prepped raw wood surface. The advantage of the practice is that you get a VERY high solids build coat that is thick; it gets you a skin of material that is as thick as even 10 or more coats of varnish from a single coat and it is self-levelling. The sanding down to a mirror-flat surface can usually be done much more quickly than with the relatively slow "varnish, let dry, sand, varnish, let dry, repeat as necessary over the next 30 days" method. The epoxy trailer queens will still always have UV-inhibited varnish, often several coats, in order to give that "varnish" look that you just can't get with Cetol, or even spar urethane, which has a more "plasticky" look to it.

The other show boats done in a traditional method will often have 30 coats of varnish build up, where each successive coat is applied, then the high spots are sanded down with each successive coat slowly filling grain and other low spots. I usually did 14 to 16 coats of varnish on my boats....

I did one boat as an experiment. I used oil-based deck and porch paint in a satin finish for my topsides, and I used spar urethane for the bright work. The boat is beautiful, and to the casual observer is a stunner, but a wood boat afficionado can walk up to the brightwork and immediately tell it isn't varnish. Spar urethane is also a hell of a lot slower than even real varnish; it just doesn't dry very quickly and is always slightly soft compared to varnish, so surfaces are more easilly scuffed.

I am rambling but let me get to two key points and a debatable opinion:

1. Teak and Mahogany are naturally oily. Applying any finish to freshly sanded Teak or Mahogany is like trying to paint the surface of a pond. Your finish will not stick, but rather just lies on the surface. You need to use a good solvent, I usually recommend acetone, and scrub the surface well to remove surface oils from the wood. Get a good pile of clean white rags, soak them liberally and go at it. The rags are going to turn red as the oils are removed from the wood. Changing rags often, scrub liberally until your rags quit changing color. You will know at this point that you have removed surface oils to the depth of penetration of the acetone.

After drying out, (it doesn't take long, acetone flashes off FAST!) move QUICKLY into finish mode. I am talking minutes, not hours. You want to get a thinned-down first coat of finish down, (whatever finish) quickly, before the oils down deeper in the wood have a chance to migrate back to the surface. The thinned first coat will penetrate INTO the wood, rather than lying on the surface and will provide a mechanical grip that subsequent layers can effectively adhere to. If your finish is IN the wood rather than just ON the wood it will have way less opportunity to peel.

2. There are varnishes out there that can be applied VERY quickly. Intelux has their Jet Speed product which can be over-coated twice every day. in a climate-controlled area, (garage) you can get 10 coats on in a week. This gets you a quick high-build with multiple coats, and as a benefit, you can move into a finish schedule that only has you sanding every fourth coat, as opposed to after every coat. This is possible due to solvents migration. IF you can get a subsequent coat on top of a dry-but-still-green prior coat, the two will fuse together chemically without the need for the mechanical bond that sanding provides. This is extremely beneficial if you have done any staining work prior to finishing, as you can have a thicker coating at first sanding, helping prevent sand-through of the stain. Understand that even with Jet Speed, one needs to apply a final top coating of UV stabilized varnish. I like Interlux Schooner personally, but have also used Epiphanes with good results.

3. Lastly, (and some will debate this) there are some people who believe that the last coat you apply prior to putting a piece of brightwork into service should be left as applied and un-sanded. Their rationale is that the UV inhibitors in the material migrate to the surface of that coat and that final sanding and bufing is a no-no in that it theoretically removes the UV layer in the final coat. I have no experience with this, and Chris P. might have insight, but know I fall into the "I don't want to redo it any more than necessary" camp so for all my brightwork projects that will be exposed outdoors, I never sand a final coat.

Put it this way: If I decide I don't like how the last coat looks, it ain't the last coat...
See, this is what I mean when I said that putting on and maintaining varnish properly is a time-consuming process! Thanks Phil. Well done.

And I can say that I have been mildly disappointed with the UV-inhibiting qualities of Spar Urethane. A few years ago, I used a piece of plywood as a mount for a rotating cam block (I affixed it to a stanchion). I thought I had protected the wood with three coats of epoxy, but after I was finished, I was told that without UV protection, the epoxy would fail. And it did. So I took the unit home, sanded off the affected areas, reapplied more epoxy, then applied four or five coats of Spar. That was two years ago. The Spar held up last year, but the protection seemed to fail quickly this year. The unit seemed fine most of the summer, but within a two week period near the end of the season, the condition went from ok to clear failure. I will be rebuilding the unit with Starboard this winter, but this is a lesson for me for future uses.
 
Jan 22, 2008
198
Montgomery 17, Venture of Newport, Mirror sailing dinghy, El Toro sailing dinghy Mound, MN -- Lake Minnetonka
The original question was about West Marine Woodshield:
"Is this a compatible replacement for Cetol? Or is it possibly the same exact product that is relabeled as a West Marine product?"
The responses have been all over the place talking about varnish and Cetol but not a single one of the 29 replies so far has addressed the original poster's query.
Just saying.
 
Last edited:
Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
The original question was about West Marine Woodshed: "Is this a compatible replacement for Cetol? Or is it possibly the same exact product that is relabeled as a West Marine product?" The responses have been all over the place talking about varnish and Cetol but not a single one of the 29 replies so far has addressed the original poster's query. Just saying.
your response also did not answer the original question putting you in the same bucket as the rest of the errant responses. So what is your answer to the question?
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Looking at the West Marine website it is obvious the WoodShield product is new. The description is eerily similar to that of Cetol My bet is that Sikkens is building it for them but until someone studies the label there is no way of knowing for sure.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
You know, this isn't answering the OP's question either but I gotta get something off my chest.

As with any finish work, car paint, varnish, house paint..... 90% of a good job is prep. Here is my quick Cetol case history:

Anyone complaining about Cetol lasting probably didn't prep right. Case in point: my garage bar.

Prior to moving inside, this bar top spent 5 years, 365 24/7 out in the environment. Rain, snow, UV... It got it all. 8 years later here it is.

Yup the pics below show a 13-year-old Cetol application. 4 coats on Cedar. It's the old original formula, kinda orangey... :). It looks much like the day I put it on. No peeling, no rub through, no problems mon!


Prep work guys, prep work. As I shared in a previous post if you are putting finish on oily wood it will not stick.

Here are two pics of the 13-year-old Cetol job...
 

Attachments

Jan 22, 2008
198
Montgomery 17, Venture of Newport, Mirror sailing dinghy, El Toro sailing dinghy Mound, MN -- Lake Minnetonka
your response also did not answer the original question putting you in the same bucket as the rest of the errant responses. So what is your answer to the question?
Beats me. I also would like to know if the West Marine product is the same as Cetol. Guess that puts me in the same bucket (boat!) as the OP.
 
Oct 17, 2011
2,809
Ericson 29 Southport..
Looking at the West Marine website it is obvious the WoodShield product is new. The description is eerily similar to that of Cetol My bet is that Sikkens is building it for them but until someone studies the label there is no way of knowing for sure.
My guess is, is it is the same thing. West Marine already markets a varnish that is rebranded Pettit varnish, so probably.

That said, any product whatsoever that says West Marine anywhere on the label I will not use for several reasons. I'm not getting into a WM debate here, don't bother asking. I just do not ever.

And not that Phil needs me backing him up, but that is a play by play scenario of how to apply. Thin the first coat. Put the second on immediately. And acetone that wood baby.

Good write Phil, I just don't have the keyboard patience..
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
My guess is, is it is the same thing. West Marine already markets a varnish that is rebranded Pettit varnish, so probably. That said, any product whatsoever that says West Marine anywhere on the label I will not use for several reasons. I'm not getting into a WM debate here, don't bother asking. I just do not ever. And not that Phil needs me backing him up, but that is a play by play scenario of how to apply. Thin the first coat. Put the second on immediately. And acetone that wood baby. Good write Phil, I just don't have the keyboard patience..
I seriously doubt that West Marine built a factory and went into production making wood finish products. Probably a Chinese knockoff of a fine US product.
 
Dec 29, 2008
805
Treworgy 65' LOA Custom Steel Pilothouse Staysail Ketch St. Croix, Virgin Islands
Or, a private label version of the same product, made in the same line and process as the name brand, which is oh, so common.
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
West Marine's 5-Star Premium Varnish is basically Epiphanes.... Says so right on the can as I recall. For Sikkins to package a Cetol-like product for WM wouldn't surprise me at all.
 

Pat

.
Jun 7, 2004
1,250
Oday 272LE Ninnescah Yacht Club, Wichita, Ks.
Some people love cetol and some do not. I am among the latter. Some (a few) have
been satisfied with West Marine 'Wood Prop'. I was not....peeled too much in the hot
Kansas sun.....both products peeled and cracked after 9 days of 108 plus temperatures two summers. This year we used Watco Teak Oil.....not quite as good looking as the
translucent products but much easier to re-apply when needed w/ a minimum of sanding...so for the moment...I'm re-sealing my cockpit grate with another coat or 4 of
Watco....It is the Kansas sun...the teak toe rails will for sure be easier to touch up. I think if I lived in Newport I would hire someone to keep the wood varnished. ...good luck!
 
Oct 17, 2011
2,809
Ericson 29 Southport..
Remember where I said "for several reasons". It matters NOT if it is the same stuff in the can. I'll go so far as to say BETTER product in the can, (which I doubt so much I wouldn't believe it if Jesus told it to me),..........I would not buy or use it.

Period.

I've got my reasons, and let's just leave it to that.