I really like the interior layout of a 32' center cockpit I have found but wonder about the raised height and its affect on sailing performance. Is there any truth to feeling more motion when sailing and is it worth it to get a huge engine room and lots of headroom and light? If center cockpit layout is so great, why don't you see more of them? Any help would be appreciated. Jim
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Derek Rowell
We love our 42 foot Center Cockpit
The interior room in a center cockpit boat is great; we love our Pearson 422, especially the walk-around queen size in the aft cabin. The sacrifice is however in deck storage, for we have basically no lazarette storage. There is no doubt, however, that you have increased windage, the height of the center-of-effort of the sails is increased, and you will probably have a bit more rolling motion in the cockpit, but it didn't take us long to get used to it! From my perspective, the aesthetics of a center cockpit require a minimum length of around 40 ft. Boats less than this with a high center cockpit just look "tubby" to me. But that's just my opinion... Good luck, Derek
The interior room in a center cockpit boat is great; we love our Pearson 422, especially the walk-around queen size in the aft cabin. The sacrifice is however in deck storage, for we have basically no lazarette storage. There is no doubt, however, that you have increased windage, the height of the center-of-effort of the sails is increased, and you will probably have a bit more rolling motion in the cockpit, but it didn't take us long to get used to it! From my perspective, the aesthetics of a center cockpit require a minimum length of around 40 ft. Boats less than this with a high center cockpit just look "tubby" to me. But that's just my opinion... Good luck, Derek
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Victor Robert
Pitch vs Roll
I have a P42 and have never thought about the motion, which should partially answer your question in itself. The effect of pitching motion (bow up & down) would actually be reduced in a center cockpit because the center of the boat does not pitch (just like the center of a seesaw does not go up & down) . Roll (side to side) would probably be enhanced since you are farther from the roll axis. As I said, never thought about the motion, love the center cockpit design. Visibility is improved because you don't have to keep looking 'around' the boat. One thing you will notice at first is that seas look bigger than they do from an aft cockpit because your viewing angle to the bow is higher. The bow appears to be digging deeper because you see more ocean between the bow and the horizon.
I have a P42 and have never thought about the motion, which should partially answer your question in itself. The effect of pitching motion (bow up & down) would actually be reduced in a center cockpit because the center of the boat does not pitch (just like the center of a seesaw does not go up & down) . Roll (side to side) would probably be enhanced since you are farther from the roll axis. As I said, never thought about the motion, love the center cockpit design. Visibility is improved because you don't have to keep looking 'around' the boat. One thing you will notice at first is that seas look bigger than they do from an aft cockpit because your viewing angle to the bow is higher. The bow appears to be digging deeper because you see more ocean between the bow and the horizon.
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Jack Tyler
Theory vs. Reality of CC design
Jim, I think Derek's main point is important and needs to be reinforced: CC designs work far better in larger boats than smaller ones, and your concern about windage is one reason. In 'your' 32 footer, you'll be at essentially the same height as on a larger CC boat, yet there'll be approx. 50% less boat under you (considering displacement) to accept the effects of that height. CC designs became popular based in part on on 'myths'. One is that there is less motion since the cockpit (where the crew is normally located when underway) is in the center - Victor's 'seesaw' analogy. However, disabling motion at sea is far more induced by roll and yaw than pitch, simply because the pitch moment is less extreme since the boat is far longer than it is wide. The more disabling motion is more extreme in a CC design as the arc described by the crews' heads is wider while the boat rolls, since they sit higher. Moreover, in our aft cockpit 424 we normally sit at the forward end of our cockpit (this is an aft cockpit version of Derek's 422) where our inner ears are probably fairly close to where Derek's crew sits in his CC boat); the difference is that we can slide aft when it's more comfortable to do so. The second 'myth' (I realize that's just my term and not one everyone will agree with) is that CC designs give more privacy aboard a boat. I've come to realize there isn't really any privacy on a 40 footer, altho' you do get 'psychological privacy' when someone is out of sight and you convince yourself they're more distant in real terms than in fact they are. You'll notice the shift in the 90's to aft cockpit multi-cabin layouts in the charter fleet (vs. the older CC designs like OI 41's and Morgan 46's) as evidence that privacy is more about closing off berthing spaces than about absolute distance from one another. CC designs can offer a sense of more space and privacy at the expense of deck locker storage (Derek's comment is right on target; I think our 424 has 3 times the cockpit locker storage on the same hull, while he has 'passageway' space to connect the cabins), provides a more spacious 'owner cabin' back aft but most likely a much worse sea berth for the owner when underway, usually provides better engine access, places the cockpit closer to the bow (which is why many CC designs are by their nature wetter for the crew), and usually result in improved visibility (higher height of eye), a higher deck on which to handle the mainsail where roll is a bit more of an issue, makes a split rig (ketch or yawl) easier to live with since the crew sits in front of the mizzen mast, and by definition chops up the boat's interior due to a cockpit well separating the main from the aft cabin. And I'm sure I'm forgetting other trade-offs, as well. From a sailing perspective - your question, and a very important one for the size boat you're looking at - a CC design will create a significant sailing compromise. OTOH the layout may be so important to you (and sailing only occasionally important) that it may still be suitable to your needs. This is what makes the world go 'round all these opinions so personal in nature! Jack
Jim, I think Derek's main point is important and needs to be reinforced: CC designs work far better in larger boats than smaller ones, and your concern about windage is one reason. In 'your' 32 footer, you'll be at essentially the same height as on a larger CC boat, yet there'll be approx. 50% less boat under you (considering displacement) to accept the effects of that height. CC designs became popular based in part on on 'myths'. One is that there is less motion since the cockpit (where the crew is normally located when underway) is in the center - Victor's 'seesaw' analogy. However, disabling motion at sea is far more induced by roll and yaw than pitch, simply because the pitch moment is less extreme since the boat is far longer than it is wide. The more disabling motion is more extreme in a CC design as the arc described by the crews' heads is wider while the boat rolls, since they sit higher. Moreover, in our aft cockpit 424 we normally sit at the forward end of our cockpit (this is an aft cockpit version of Derek's 422) where our inner ears are probably fairly close to where Derek's crew sits in his CC boat); the difference is that we can slide aft when it's more comfortable to do so. The second 'myth' (I realize that's just my term and not one everyone will agree with) is that CC designs give more privacy aboard a boat. I've come to realize there isn't really any privacy on a 40 footer, altho' you do get 'psychological privacy' when someone is out of sight and you convince yourself they're more distant in real terms than in fact they are. You'll notice the shift in the 90's to aft cockpit multi-cabin layouts in the charter fleet (vs. the older CC designs like OI 41's and Morgan 46's) as evidence that privacy is more about closing off berthing spaces than about absolute distance from one another. CC designs can offer a sense of more space and privacy at the expense of deck locker storage (Derek's comment is right on target; I think our 424 has 3 times the cockpit locker storage on the same hull, while he has 'passageway' space to connect the cabins), provides a more spacious 'owner cabin' back aft but most likely a much worse sea berth for the owner when underway, usually provides better engine access, places the cockpit closer to the bow (which is why many CC designs are by their nature wetter for the crew), and usually result in improved visibility (higher height of eye), a higher deck on which to handle the mainsail where roll is a bit more of an issue, makes a split rig (ketch or yawl) easier to live with since the crew sits in front of the mizzen mast, and by definition chops up the boat's interior due to a cockpit well separating the main from the aft cabin. And I'm sure I'm forgetting other trade-offs, as well. From a sailing perspective - your question, and a very important one for the size boat you're looking at - a CC design will create a significant sailing compromise. OTOH the layout may be so important to you (and sailing only occasionally important) that it may still be suitable to your needs. This is what makes the world go 'round all these opinions so personal in nature! Jack
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Dave
Love our 36CC
Most of what has been said seems accurate to me. It really depends what you are after. My wife and I are cruisers. We don't race. A couple of things were very important to her when we were looking for a boat: A wonderful galley and no 'MRI-like' cabins. I didn't want to go much bigger than a 36 for a number of reasons. Our Beneteau 36CC is perfect for us. It performs satisfactorily (though a racer would probably want better performance) and the accomodations are wonderful. Storage below is incredible and headroom is good (for a six footer). The storage up top is indeed an issue. That is probably our biggest complaint.
Most of what has been said seems accurate to me. It really depends what you are after. My wife and I are cruisers. We don't race. A couple of things were very important to her when we were looking for a boat: A wonderful galley and no 'MRI-like' cabins. I didn't want to go much bigger than a 36 for a number of reasons. Our Beneteau 36CC is perfect for us. It performs satisfactorily (though a racer would probably want better performance) and the accomodations are wonderful. Storage below is incredible and headroom is good (for a six footer). The storage up top is indeed an issue. That is probably our biggest complaint.
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Jim Shifrin
Is it to much to ask....
The boat that I am looking at is currently out of the water so I cannot test sail or even see what she looks like wet. Is it to much to ask to have it put in the water for me to evaluate. I would even consider splitting the cost or deducting it from the purchase price if I buy it. It has been out of the water about 4 months but based on the way it is outfitted ( minimal) I dont think it was sailed much. Also I want to thank everyone who has responded so far. The best info is from peers and not salesmen or brokers. THANKS!!
The boat that I am looking at is currently out of the water so I cannot test sail or even see what she looks like wet. Is it to much to ask to have it put in the water for me to evaluate. I would even consider splitting the cost or deducting it from the purchase price if I buy it. It has been out of the water about 4 months but based on the way it is outfitted ( minimal) I dont think it was sailed much. Also I want to thank everyone who has responded so far. The best info is from peers and not salesmen or brokers. THANKS!!
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Don
Standard approach
is to negotiate a contract, make a deposit, then launch it for a sea trial in conjunction with the survey, which is generally required for financing, insurnace, etc. Typically the launch is on your (the buyer's) dime. You might negotiate otherwise, however, most deals are generally "renegotiated" based on the survey results (both in water and out). The surveyor will find what's wrong, then you can negotiate to have the price reduced, and/or the repairs made. In my experience, it's more fluid of a situation that buying a house. As I understand it, the sea trial can really be subject to your terms, e.g., you don't like the ride you don't buy. Of course, you pay for boat ride in the launching fees.
is to negotiate a contract, make a deposit, then launch it for a sea trial in conjunction with the survey, which is generally required for financing, insurnace, etc. Typically the launch is on your (the buyer's) dime. You might negotiate otherwise, however, most deals are generally "renegotiated" based on the survey results (both in water and out). The surveyor will find what's wrong, then you can negotiate to have the price reduced, and/or the repairs made. In my experience, it's more fluid of a situation that buying a house. As I understand it, the sea trial can really be subject to your terms, e.g., you don't like the ride you don't buy. Of course, you pay for boat ride in the launching fees.
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Peter Brennan
Two kinds of center cockpit designs
and they are very different. The kind so far discussed here has the cockpit essentially on top of the boat with room below to pass from one end of the boat to the other without going outside. Smaller boats of this design are really ungainly. Slab sided and chopped off and the people look like elephant drivers in a howdah perched way up high. Also, the actual cockpits on these boats tend to be shallow, lacking in back support especially. The combination of being up high in a shallow cockpit leads to exposed and insecure feelings. My opinion is you don't really get to a presentable and comfortable CC of this type until you reach 50 feet or so. Even the Endeavour 42 is too high. Check out the Amel Super Maramu for a successful design. There were some boats of this design under 30 feet -- an old S2 comes to mind -- of which it was said they go sideways faster than forward. The other design essentially takes an aft cockpit designb, cuts it in half and drops the aft cockpit into the center. There is no pass through. To get from the aft cabin to the forward one means going outside. But the cockpit is deep and secure with as much storage as any aft cockpit boat. Privacy is unexcelled. There is plenty of room for the engine under the ccockpit. And the boat's lines are graceful -- usually. We have owned two such. One was a Dawson 26, a lovely trailer sailer with center cocpit set down in the boat. Our present boat is an O'Day 37, which has the same design and is as pretty a boat as you would want to see. O'Day also made the 32CC, with the cockpit down in the boat, but to my eye that boat looks truncated, not because of the cockpit but because of too much freeboard to allow more interior headroom than a 32 should really have. So we get wet going from the owner's stateroom to the saloon. We never feel like we could fall out of the boat. And the owner can continue to sleep in private while the crew bangs around in the galley. No railroad flat this.
and they are very different. The kind so far discussed here has the cockpit essentially on top of the boat with room below to pass from one end of the boat to the other without going outside. Smaller boats of this design are really ungainly. Slab sided and chopped off and the people look like elephant drivers in a howdah perched way up high. Also, the actual cockpits on these boats tend to be shallow, lacking in back support especially. The combination of being up high in a shallow cockpit leads to exposed and insecure feelings. My opinion is you don't really get to a presentable and comfortable CC of this type until you reach 50 feet or so. Even the Endeavour 42 is too high. Check out the Amel Super Maramu for a successful design. There were some boats of this design under 30 feet -- an old S2 comes to mind -- of which it was said they go sideways faster than forward. The other design essentially takes an aft cockpit designb, cuts it in half and drops the aft cockpit into the center. There is no pass through. To get from the aft cabin to the forward one means going outside. But the cockpit is deep and secure with as much storage as any aft cockpit boat. Privacy is unexcelled. There is plenty of room for the engine under the ccockpit. And the boat's lines are graceful -- usually. We have owned two such. One was a Dawson 26, a lovely trailer sailer with center cocpit set down in the boat. Our present boat is an O'Day 37, which has the same design and is as pretty a boat as you would want to see. O'Day also made the 32CC, with the cockpit down in the boat, but to my eye that boat looks truncated, not because of the cockpit but because of too much freeboard to allow more interior headroom than a 32 should really have. So we get wet going from the owner's stateroom to the saloon. We never feel like we could fall out of the boat. And the owner can continue to sleep in private while the crew bangs around in the galley. No railroad flat this.
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Len Fagan
Center Cockpit
There actualy are a lot of center cockpit boats around Hallberg Rassy, Hylas, Tayanna, Passport,the new Island Packet 48 and of course the Hunter Passage series and many others. I own a 450 and prefer it to a stern cockpit design for several reasons. 1) A large private stern capin with double berth. 2) The space on the aft deck for longing. A six footer can lay and sun on stern on mats. 3)Visability. Excellant for docking and picking up moorings. The sea motion is no different than a 460 stern cock pit version. The main reason you do not see as many is that they tend to be a desirable design in larger over 40 foot boats and have been for some time ie:the Irwins, Morgan Gulfstars etc. Len Fagan "Tale Winds"
There actualy are a lot of center cockpit boats around Hallberg Rassy, Hylas, Tayanna, Passport,the new Island Packet 48 and of course the Hunter Passage series and many others. I own a 450 and prefer it to a stern cockpit design for several reasons. 1) A large private stern capin with double berth. 2) The space on the aft deck for longing. A six footer can lay and sun on stern on mats. 3)Visability. Excellant for docking and picking up moorings. The sea motion is no different than a 460 stern cock pit version. The main reason you do not see as many is that they tend to be a desirable design in larger over 40 foot boats and have been for some time ie:the Irwins, Morgan Gulfstars etc. Len Fagan "Tale Winds"
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J Olson
S2 CC has great liveing space
for a 30' boat the two that Ive seen had realy great liveing space in there cockpit, with a bimmi and clear plastic sides you can get out of the weather and extend your sailing seasion.here in the north east everybody is talking obout halling out for the winter . Last year I sailed till November but my wife would not go with me.We over night on our boat every weekend and I could use the space.I liked the S2 but it is alittle hi inthe center.I bought aC30 and its working for me. But some liveing space in the cockpit would be nice. JOlson
for a 30' boat the two that Ive seen had realy great liveing space in there cockpit, with a bimmi and clear plastic sides you can get out of the weather and extend your sailing seasion.here in the north east everybody is talking obout halling out for the winter . Last year I sailed till November but my wife would not go with me.We over night on our boat every weekend and I could use the space.I liked the S2 but it is alittle hi inthe center.I bought aC30 and its working for me. But some liveing space in the cockpit would be nice. JOlson
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