Anyone have experience in using a CDI furler on a 30' or larger boat in prevailing SF Bay conditions? I'm considering the CDI for price and simplicity but have reservations about whehter it can handle the common 20-30 know summer breezes on the Bay safely and adequately; perhaps the extra money for a ProFurl or Schaeffer is worth it.....
CDI Furler and SF Bay conditions
- Thread starter Dave 85 Catalina 30
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few buck more you can have a Spin-Tec.
Dave: For a few buck more you can have a Spin-Tec Furler. They are of equal quality to the Pro-Furl & Schaffer for a lot less money. I think that they will be at the Sail Expo show next week.
Dave: For a few buck more you can have a Spin-Tec Furler. They are of equal quality to the Pro-Furl & Schaffer for a lot less money. I think that they will be at the Sail Expo show next week.
No they aren't
When will people figure it out ..? From Spin-Tec: "Our studies indicated that less than 10% of the sailors change their headsails during a season. So we designed the Halyard Clip Accessory for those who anticipate frequent sail changes or who don't want to go aloft to attach the head of the sail to the upper assembly using a standard shackle." Yes, you have to go aloft and shackle the sail to the furler. "The system has no ball bearings. Instead large Delrin bushings ..." Shhhh... please don't tell anyone that ball bearings are bad ... we all know how much better plastic bushings work on boats ... all of us can't wait to replace all those nasty ball bearing blocks with good plastic bushings. "The Triumph 2000 utilizes West System Epoxy to isolate the stainless steel drum from the aluminum foil sections." So if the foil is damaged ... the unit is epoxied together? That should make it very easy to service! For $1400-$2000 you have the choice of several furling systems. Do you really think that you can get Pro-Furl quality for CDI prices? Pro-Furl tends to be the most expensive option, they have been building furling systems for a very long time. Why do you suppose that Pro-Furl is still around selling for a premium price? I guess there are enough people that can see the difference in quality and function? Yeah, yeah, yeah ... your buddy's uncle had a bad experince with a XYZ furler and the ABC furler he has now has given him no trouble ... I've heard all the stories. Simple test: Ask what alloy is preferred for stainless boat parts. Then find out what alloy Spin-Tec uses ...
"The entire lower assembly is made of 304 Stainless Steel for strength and resistance to the elements." Sailing out of Redwood City, you know that for the summer all you need most afternoons is a good #3 (100% jib) and the main, when fall and winter rolls around and the wind is lighter, you want to have a bigger sail up. You will not regret spending a few more dollars for a better quailty furler. Look around as you walk the docks and see what the boats have for furlers. The boats that sail out of Berekley and the City will have furlers that work in the bay. My bet is that you won't see many CDi's on boats over 25 feet. You will see Harken, Pro-Furl, and Furlex on boats that have been retrofitted, you will find Schaefer, Facnor, and Harken on OEM installs.
When will people figure it out ..? From Spin-Tec: "Our studies indicated that less than 10% of the sailors change their headsails during a season. So we designed the Halyard Clip Accessory for those who anticipate frequent sail changes or who don't want to go aloft to attach the head of the sail to the upper assembly using a standard shackle." Yes, you have to go aloft and shackle the sail to the furler. "The system has no ball bearings. Instead large Delrin bushings ..." Shhhh... please don't tell anyone that ball bearings are bad ... we all know how much better plastic bushings work on boats ... all of us can't wait to replace all those nasty ball bearing blocks with good plastic bushings. "The Triumph 2000 utilizes West System Epoxy to isolate the stainless steel drum from the aluminum foil sections." So if the foil is damaged ... the unit is epoxied together? That should make it very easy to service! For $1400-$2000 you have the choice of several furling systems. Do you really think that you can get Pro-Furl quality for CDI prices? Pro-Furl tends to be the most expensive option, they have been building furling systems for a very long time. Why do you suppose that Pro-Furl is still around selling for a premium price? I guess there are enough people that can see the difference in quality and function? Yeah, yeah, yeah ... your buddy's uncle had a bad experince with a XYZ furler and the ABC furler he has now has given him no trouble ... I've heard all the stories. Simple test: Ask what alloy is preferred for stainless boat parts. Then find out what alloy Spin-Tec uses ...
"The entire lower assembly is made of 304 Stainless Steel for strength and resistance to the elements." Sailing out of Redwood City, you know that for the summer all you need most afternoons is a good #3 (100% jib) and the main, when fall and winter rolls around and the wind is lighter, you want to have a bigger sail up. You will not regret spending a few more dollars for a better quailty furler. Look around as you walk the docks and see what the boats have for furlers. The boats that sail out of Berekley and the City will have furlers that work in the bay. My bet is that you won't see many CDi's on boats over 25 feet. You will see Harken, Pro-Furl, and Furlex on boats that have been retrofitted, you will find Schaefer, Facnor, and Harken on OEM installs.Kinda Too Small
I had a Catalina 30 with a CDI furling system. Did it work? YES Did it work easily? NO In 20 to 30K, was i ever concerned? YES Did it ever fail me? Depends on what you call failure. Compared to other furling systems for 30 ft boats, the CDI drum is kinda small. This meant that i HAD to use the winch to furl it in. With the smaller drum , it required a thinner line, which is harder and more painful to pull on. I had the Catalina 30 with the tall rig and had a 150 Genoa. It came with the boat when i bought it from another owner. Would I purchase one for a Catalina 30? Hell NO ! BTW, I single handed a lot,and I'm 59 years old. Dont be motivated by price when safety may be a concern. When you have to knock your dick into the dirt to furl in 20K to 30K, Yes, safety is a factor. Given a choice , with what i know now, I would rather wait till I had the extra money to buy a quality furlin system. Good luck in whatever your choice Tony B
I had a Catalina 30 with a CDI furling system. Did it work? YES Did it work easily? NO In 20 to 30K, was i ever concerned? YES Did it ever fail me? Depends on what you call failure. Compared to other furling systems for 30 ft boats, the CDI drum is kinda small. This meant that i HAD to use the winch to furl it in. With the smaller drum , it required a thinner line, which is harder and more painful to pull on. I had the Catalina 30 with the tall rig and had a 150 Genoa. It came with the boat when i bought it from another owner. Would I purchase one for a Catalina 30? Hell NO ! BTW, I single handed a lot,and I'm 59 years old. Dont be motivated by price when safety may be a concern. When you have to knock your dick into the dirt to furl in 20K to 30K, Yes, safety is a factor. Given a choice , with what i know now, I would rather wait till I had the extra money to buy a quality furlin system. Good luck in whatever your choice Tony B
We changed our CDI to a
Profurl on our C34 out of Alameda a few years ago. I did the research, and the Harkens and Profurl cost about the same. I chose the ProFurl because of "no" (ha ha) maintenance and the stated ability to be able to use the winch to furl. I am very pleased with the performance. Our old CDI died -- it was the one with the halyard restrainer system -- what a joke. Don't know if they make them this way anymore. Tony and Moody hit the nail on the head. I single-hand or double-hand all the time, high winds never a problem. Out usually at least once a week.
Profurl on our C34 out of Alameda a few years ago. I did the research, and the Harkens and Profurl cost about the same. I chose the ProFurl because of "no" (ha ha) maintenance and the stated ability to be able to use the winch to furl. I am very pleased with the performance. Our old CDI died -- it was the one with the halyard restrainer system -- what a joke. Don't know if they make them this way anymore. Tony and Moody hit the nail on the head. I single-hand or double-hand all the time, high winds never a problem. Out usually at least once a week.
Remember this
The CDI is a roller FURLER only Harken, Schaffer, ProFurl, Facnor, Hood (some of them), etc are roller REEFERS. A roller reefer can be used to shorten the headsail when the wind starts to get too strong or to furl the sail. A roller furler can be uset to furl the sail, but is not meant to reef it. The CDI is not designed or speced to reef the head sail, only to furl it. For a C-30, you WILL want to reef the genoa occasionally (most sailors roller reef the genoa on a C-30 before they reef the main (which is the incorrect order for this boat)). Get roller reefer, not a roller furler. Avoid the CDI. Steve Alchemist C-30T #4764 Alchemist C-320 #909
The CDI is a roller FURLER only Harken, Schaffer, ProFurl, Facnor, Hood (some of them), etc are roller REEFERS. A roller reefer can be used to shorten the headsail when the wind starts to get too strong or to furl the sail. A roller furler can be uset to furl the sail, but is not meant to reef it. The CDI is not designed or speced to reef the head sail, only to furl it. For a C-30, you WILL want to reef the genoa occasionally (most sailors roller reef the genoa on a C-30 before they reef the main (which is the incorrect order for this boat)). Get roller reefer, not a roller furler. Avoid the CDI. Steve Alchemist C-30T #4764 Alchemist C-320 #909
I Disagree with Alchemist
I disagree on both points with Alchemist. I too sailed a Catalina 30 Tall Rig, BS and fin keel for many years. The CDI roller furling I had was also a reefer (not the kind you smoke). We probably have 2 different models, but mine was deffinately reefed in rough weather I have sailed some really rough weather in the Gulf of Mexico and experience taught me to reef my genoa first on MY Catalina 30. Probably because I had a 150 which is quite large on Catalina's compared to other 30 ft. boats. By reefing the jenny first, i reduced the weather helm substantially and could balance the boat quite well. At approx 18-20K, i would reef the jenny down to about 110%. Over 20K, i would deffinately put my main in the first reef to reduce the heel angle and still exceed hull speed. My Catalina 30 didnt get much power from the main, so when above 25K or so i would reef the jenny down to about 100%. What I do agree with Alchemist is to avoid the CDI. Because of the large size the Catalina 30 Genoa (150), you cannot get a reef/furling line thicker than about 5/16". Then if you have to use your winch, it wont grip real well. I had to install a small cam cleat to hold the line aft of the winch while i re-gripped and pulled. All the while standing sideways in the cockpit with one foot braced against the sete' and burning my hands on the small line. Do yourself a favor and dont be motivated by the lesser price. The CDI is good for smaller boats, or a 30 ft. boat with not such a big fore triangle. Tony B Reply | Print Thread
I disagree on both points with Alchemist. I too sailed a Catalina 30 Tall Rig, BS and fin keel for many years. The CDI roller furling I had was also a reefer (not the kind you smoke). We probably have 2 different models, but mine was deffinately reefed in rough weather I have sailed some really rough weather in the Gulf of Mexico and experience taught me to reef my genoa first on MY Catalina 30. Probably because I had a 150 which is quite large on Catalina's compared to other 30 ft. boats. By reefing the jenny first, i reduced the weather helm substantially and could balance the boat quite well. At approx 18-20K, i would reef the jenny down to about 110%. Over 20K, i would deffinately put my main in the first reef to reduce the heel angle and still exceed hull speed. My Catalina 30 didnt get much power from the main, so when above 25K or so i would reef the jenny down to about 100%. What I do agree with Alchemist is to avoid the CDI. Because of the large size the Catalina 30 Genoa (150), you cannot get a reef/furling line thicker than about 5/16". Then if you have to use your winch, it wont grip real well. I had to install a small cam cleat to hold the line aft of the winch while i re-gripped and pulled. All the while standing sideways in the cockpit with one foot braced against the sete' and burning my hands on the small line. Do yourself a favor and dont be motivated by the lesser price. The CDI is good for smaller boats, or a 30 ft. boat with not such a big fore triangle. Tony B Reply | Print Thread
follow up questions
Two questions to continue the discussion . . . 1. Does anybody know which Hood systems are reefing systems vs. furling only? I have a Hood Seafurl 707 for my 150 on a Hunter 30. I emailed Hood, but I haven't heard back from them. It was installed by previous owner, so I don't have alot of documentation for it. 2. Sailortonyb - you said that you reduce weather helm by reefing the jenny. Help me understand that. Logically, I know that the main's center of effort is more aft on the boat and should cause the boat to round up. The jenny's center of effort is more forward and should cause the boat to fall off. I've done quite a bit of steering just using the sails and this principle. So at first glance, it's illogical to me that reefing the jenny would reduce weather helm, because it would seem that you are giving more control to the main, which will cause the boat to round up. So the only explanation I can think of is that reefing the jenny moves the center of effort forward on the jenny, thus giving the jenny more power to make the boat fall off. (With a big jenny out, the center of effort is probably farther aft, having more of a weather helm effect like a main.) Am I right? Other explanation? Then finally I need to think about how this works on my H30 fractional rig. Thanks!
Two questions to continue the discussion . . . 1. Does anybody know which Hood systems are reefing systems vs. furling only? I have a Hood Seafurl 707 for my 150 on a Hunter 30. I emailed Hood, but I haven't heard back from them. It was installed by previous owner, so I don't have alot of documentation for it. 2. Sailortonyb - you said that you reduce weather helm by reefing the jenny. Help me understand that. Logically, I know that the main's center of effort is more aft on the boat and should cause the boat to round up. The jenny's center of effort is more forward and should cause the boat to fall off. I've done quite a bit of steering just using the sails and this principle. So at first glance, it's illogical to me that reefing the jenny would reduce weather helm, because it would seem that you are giving more control to the main, which will cause the boat to round up. So the only explanation I can think of is that reefing the jenny moves the center of effort forward on the jenny, thus giving the jenny more power to make the boat fall off. (With a big jenny out, the center of effort is probably farther aft, having more of a weather helm effect like a main.) Am I right? Other explanation? Then finally I need to think about how this works on my H30 fractional rig. Thanks!
Heeling, Weather Helm and furling technique
Other than sail trim, some boats develope weather helm when they heel just due to hull form acting as a rudder. In practice, reducing heel angle will often reduce weather helm. Often "blown out sails" cause this when they lose shape and become deep they produce a heeling moment rather than drive. Also with regard to furling a CDI or any furler technique is an important part of how easily the sail will reef. You should not need a winch to reef or furl. A good techinque is: sail off the wind, deep reaching or on a run. to get the furling genoa slightly in the lee of the main while at the same time reducing the relative wind strength. Then sheet out until you get a good bubble in the genoa and it will furl more easily. If you try to reef going to windward by luffing the sail it will always create more friction.
Other than sail trim, some boats develope weather helm when they heel just due to hull form acting as a rudder. In practice, reducing heel angle will often reduce weather helm. Often "blown out sails" cause this when they lose shape and become deep they produce a heeling moment rather than drive. Also with regard to furling a CDI or any furler technique is an important part of how easily the sail will reef. You should not need a winch to reef or furl. A good techinque is: sail off the wind, deep reaching or on a run. to get the furling genoa slightly in the lee of the main while at the same time reducing the relative wind strength. Then sheet out until you get a good bubble in the genoa and it will furl more easily. If you try to reef going to windward by luffing the sail it will always create more friction.
Reef vs. furl
Sherry: all of the furling units do the same thing: they roll up the sail. They don't care how big the sail is. After all, if the unit can handle the stress of a fully-extended sail, it can certainly handle the stress of a smaller version of that sail. The sail itself is what determines if it can be reefed. All of the sail makers I talked to before buying my new genny told me that a sail must be specifically cut and made to be reefed if you ever hope to have decent sail shape at more than one size. When I bought my CDI roller furler a few years ago, I took my existing hank-on 165 genny to a sailmaker to have it modified for roller furling. I chose to convert the big sail rather than my 100 jib because I thought I would be able to reef it down when I wanted to or keep it fully extended. The sailmaker told me I would be wasting my money; the CDI would do the job fine, but the sail would never properly reef for a number of reasons, including: it was cut with its maximum draft in a particular place, which would be ruined if reefed; and the cloth was too lighweight to stand up to higher winds. I wound up having my 100 jib made into my roller furling sail. A few years later I invested in a new genny, one made to allow reefing. In short, don't worry about the roller furling unit, concentrate on the sail.
Sherry: all of the furling units do the same thing: they roll up the sail. They don't care how big the sail is. After all, if the unit can handle the stress of a fully-extended sail, it can certainly handle the stress of a smaller version of that sail. The sail itself is what determines if it can be reefed. All of the sail makers I talked to before buying my new genny told me that a sail must be specifically cut and made to be reefed if you ever hope to have decent sail shape at more than one size. When I bought my CDI roller furler a few years ago, I took my existing hank-on 165 genny to a sailmaker to have it modified for roller furling. I chose to convert the big sail rather than my 100 jib because I thought I would be able to reef it down when I wanted to or keep it fully extended. The sailmaker told me I would be wasting my money; the CDI would do the job fine, but the sail would never properly reef for a number of reasons, including: it was cut with its maximum draft in a particular place, which would be ruined if reefed; and the cloth was too lighweight to stand up to higher winds. I wound up having my 100 jib made into my roller furling sail. A few years later I invested in a new genny, one made to allow reefing. In short, don't worry about the roller furling unit, concentrate on the sail.
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