I am considering the purchase of either a Catalina 350 or Hunter 36 (the 2004 version of the 356). I like the set-up on the Hunter 36 slightly better, but I have a number of questions: 1) How is the balance on the Hunter. Will the big main and small jib force early reefing of the main to avoid weather helm, rudder stall, and uncontrolled rounding up? 2) Do the outboard shrods on the Hunter (vrs inboard on the Catalina) reduce pointing ability? 3) Is the Hunter's 27 hp engine (vrs 35 hp on the Catalina) adequate for punching through heavy sea's? Any comparisons from anyone that has sailed both boats?
- Status
Hunter 36
I purchased the 356 in 2002. Love the boat. I have no problem in heavy winds. I start by roller reefing the main first (I truly suggest a roller reefing main), and then I start reefing the jib as required. If more reef is required I follow the same procedure, main first, then more jib. Keeps boat well balanced. Engine is more than adequate, although a little more might be better. I am investigating a 3 bladed prop for a little more umph in those conditions when you must power over 6 knots for long periods of time.
I purchased the 356 in 2002. Love the boat. I have no problem in heavy winds. I start by roller reefing the main first (I truly suggest a roller reefing main), and then I start reefing the jib as required. If more reef is required I follow the same procedure, main first, then more jib. Keeps boat well balanced. Engine is more than adequate, although a little more might be better. I am investigating a 3 bladed prop for a little more umph in those conditions when you must power over 6 knots for long periods of time.
Hmm, how about a C36 ? *!
Oops, sorry it was not on your list ..lol
But seriously the The C36 has been powered by a 21, 25, 30 and a 35 HP engine and there is a definite difference in the high end motoring speed of them. With the 35HP you can hit hull speed fairly easily with a clean hull(7.3 knots) I know the people with the 21 and 25 hp have a bit harder time and typically only can cruise at about 6 knots or so. I have heard that those underpowered boats pick up a little speed when they prop with an autoprop though. I would think the C350 is probably close to the same as it has the same Universal M35B 35hp engine and can probably motor up to hull speed (7.3?) fairly easily. The extra HP also helps if you are planning on or ever thinking of adding a hi-powered alternator some day. I have **never** heard of anyone complaining and wishing they had a "smaller" engine. Won't matter to everyone, plus it **is** a sailboat and hopefully you are sailing and not motoring.
Oops, sorry it was not on your list ..lol
But seriously the The C36 has been powered by a 21, 25, 30 and a 35 HP engine and there is a definite difference in the high end motoring speed of them. With the 35HP you can hit hull speed fairly easily with a clean hull(7.3 knots) I know the people with the 21 and 25 hp have a bit harder time and typically only can cruise at about 6 knots or so. I have heard that those underpowered boats pick up a little speed when they prop with an autoprop though. I would think the C350 is probably close to the same as it has the same Universal M35B 35hp engine and can probably motor up to hull speed (7.3?) fairly easily. The extra HP also helps if you are planning on or ever thinking of adding a hi-powered alternator some day. I have **never** heard of anyone complaining and wishing they had a "smaller" engine. Won't matter to everyone, plus it **is** a sailboat and hopefully you are sailing and not motoring.Hunter 36
I have a 2003 Hunter 356 with in mast furling. Reefing as per the previous post works really good. The boat is not overpowered with full sail up to about 20 knots, then I roll in the main. I point at 30 degrees apparent and it will do this all day long. I chose a three bladed folding prop and the boat has plenty of power. On Kentucky lake, we sometimes have 3 to 4 foot waves if the wind is from the right direction. In those conditions motoring, the power is very adequate and I can motor along at 6 plus knots at about 2750 rpm. I have not sailed a Catalina 36, but would think it would be hard to beat the H356/36 in a comparison. We are very pleased with our 356 and would buy another one tomorrow. SV Persistence
I have a 2003 Hunter 356 with in mast furling. Reefing as per the previous post works really good. The boat is not overpowered with full sail up to about 20 knots, then I roll in the main. I point at 30 degrees apparent and it will do this all day long. I chose a three bladed folding prop and the boat has plenty of power. On Kentucky lake, we sometimes have 3 to 4 foot waves if the wind is from the right direction. In those conditions motoring, the power is very adequate and I can motor along at 6 plus knots at about 2750 rpm. I have not sailed a Catalina 36, but would think it would be hard to beat the H356/36 in a comparison. We are very pleased with our 356 and would buy another one tomorrow. SV Persistence
C36
IS A REAL NICE BOAT! The keel step mast is much safer than the deck step mast on the C350. I think the C36 is a great boat and that why Catalina keeps it in the line up!
IS A REAL NICE BOAT! The keel step mast is much safer than the deck step mast on the C350. I think the C36 is a great boat and that why Catalina keeps it in the line up!
Things to Consider
I haven't done this but if I was trying to decide between these two I would look at the PHRF handicap rating as an indication of performance. I'd also look at the resale value. I bought a Hunter cause the price was lower but in my area it appears Catalinas have higher resale value in New England
I haven't done this but if I was trying to decide between these two I would look at the PHRF handicap rating as an indication of performance. I'd also look at the resale value. I bought a Hunter cause the price was lower but in my area it appears Catalinas have higher resale value in New England
It isn't (that simple)...
The notion a keel stepped mast will remain up should a wire let go is more or less true, depending on lots of variables...but keel stepped masts can and do buckle when falling out of column, just as with deck stepped masts. Should that occur, the keel stepped mast is likely to end up being much more of a handful for a crew (especially small crews) and put the vessel more at risk, as part of it waps the boat's hull with a vengence while the crew finds it isn't easy to release the boat's grip on the mast simply by pulling the pins on the rig. Unless extended offshore use is planned, I've always wondered why keel stepped masts get high praise when in reality they are more of a nuisance to live with. Pulling the stick is more difficult (and sometimes more costly if a mobile crane needs to be brought in to make the higher lift), more room is needed to store or work on the stick, and if cruising in canals (e.g. France, Germany, Belgium, etc.), living with the longer stick on deck is far more of a nuisance. We sail offshore, enjoy a beefy (proably too big a cross-section) keel stepped mast on our Pearson 424, so we're supposed to be the ideal candidates for this arrangement...but I think in balance we faced less risk and found things more convenient WRT our rig when sailing offshore in our older, smaller H-R ketch. Jack
The notion a keel stepped mast will remain up should a wire let go is more or less true, depending on lots of variables...but keel stepped masts can and do buckle when falling out of column, just as with deck stepped masts. Should that occur, the keel stepped mast is likely to end up being much more of a handful for a crew (especially small crews) and put the vessel more at risk, as part of it waps the boat's hull with a vengence while the crew finds it isn't easy to release the boat's grip on the mast simply by pulling the pins on the rig. Unless extended offshore use is planned, I've always wondered why keel stepped masts get high praise when in reality they are more of a nuisance to live with. Pulling the stick is more difficult (and sometimes more costly if a mobile crane needs to be brought in to make the higher lift), more room is needed to store or work on the stick, and if cruising in canals (e.g. France, Germany, Belgium, etc.), living with the longer stick on deck is far more of a nuisance. We sail offshore, enjoy a beefy (proably too big a cross-section) keel stepped mast on our Pearson 424, so we're supposed to be the ideal candidates for this arrangement...but I think in balance we faced less risk and found things more convenient WRT our rig when sailing offshore in our older, smaller H-R ketch. Jack
I agree with Jack, I think there was a time when
Keel stepped masts were clearly superior. But I think if properly engineered its a toss up these days, unless (as Jack mentioned) you are going far offshore. The reason being is if you are really rolled, most deck stepped masts might be totally swept clean off your deck. But if you have a keel stepped boat if you get rolled there is a good chance there will still be a "stump" left where you could still fashion some sort of rigging and sail home under your own power. Actually its been done a number of times (reference one book. "Red Sky in Mourning") I think the "potential" advantage of a deck stepped is not having any hole in your deck for potential leaks from rain, etc. But I have been pretty lucky One other small advantage of a keel stepped is (all things being equal) the keel stepped mast can be designed to have a smaller cross sectional area than a deck stepped. Thus lighter and less weight higher up. But this can be designed out by other methods. I have seen this question asked of Bob Perry (designed 100's of boats including Valient 40's, etc) and this is pretty much his take on the subject too. Sorry this discussion got hijacked from a H356 vs a C350 to a C36. Actually the H356 and the C350 are much closer styled boats than the C36 which is a bit more tradional.
Keel stepped masts were clearly superior. But I think if properly engineered its a toss up these days, unless (as Jack mentioned) you are going far offshore. The reason being is if you are really rolled, most deck stepped masts might be totally swept clean off your deck. But if you have a keel stepped boat if you get rolled there is a good chance there will still be a "stump" left where you could still fashion some sort of rigging and sail home under your own power. Actually its been done a number of times (reference one book. "Red Sky in Mourning") I think the "potential" advantage of a deck stepped is not having any hole in your deck for potential leaks from rain, etc. But I have been pretty lucky One other small advantage of a keel stepped is (all things being equal) the keel stepped mast can be designed to have a smaller cross sectional area than a deck stepped. Thus lighter and less weight higher up. But this can be designed out by other methods. I have seen this question asked of Bob Perry (designed 100's of boats including Valient 40's, etc) and this is pretty much his take on the subject too. Sorry this discussion got hijacked from a H356 vs a C350 to a C36. Actually the H356 and the C350 are much closer styled boats than the C36 which is a bit more tradional.
Keel vs. Deck
One advantage I can think of is that if you have a keel-stepped mast, you don't have to worry too much about the deck being compressed due to water intrusion - the deck on a keel-stedd boat doesn't need to support that structural load that a deck-stepped mast does. -Mark
One advantage I can think of is that if you have a keel-stepped mast, you don't have to worry too much about the deck being compressed due to water intrusion - the deck on a keel-stedd boat doesn't need to support that structural load that a deck-stepped mast does. -Mark
Fred, Yes they are safer
As Jack pointed out, "keel stepped mast will remain up should a wire let go". How often do you have your rigging check? How complex is your inspection? Do you pay to have your mast stepped and inspected every year? every other year? How you seen what has happen to other deck stepped boat that lost a head or aft stay. I have and there is a big hole in the deck where the mast step was! Thanks Jack your right on the money with your first line and the rest I desagree with, but that is my opinion. If your mast come down before you can start the engines you need to get the rig away from the boat. The faster the better because if your getting pounded by the weather. Keep a hack saw and bolt cutter ready!
As Jack pointed out, "keel stepped mast will remain up should a wire let go". How often do you have your rigging check? How complex is your inspection? Do you pay to have your mast stepped and inspected every year? every other year? How you seen what has happen to other deck stepped boat that lost a head or aft stay. I have and there is a big hole in the deck where the mast step was! Thanks Jack your right on the money with your first line and the rest I desagree with, but that is my opinion. If your mast come down before you can start the engines you need to get the rig away from the boat. The faster the better because if your getting pounded by the weather. Keep a hack saw and bolt cutter ready!
Jim, you sound like you're arguing with me, I just
asked a question. Easy now, see,,, and some more,
asked a question. Easy now, see,
,, and some more,
Paul, I noticed your from Barneget Bay
And i know that to be one of the "skinniest" water places around. Lots of shoaling and very shallow. If thats true, I hope you are seriously looking at the wing keel models. if thats true then (all things being equal) the extra 1/2 foot less deep C350 might make the difference one day. But granted it's not that much and you're probably prepared to run aground once in a while. That being said, I would get the biggest motor possible PLUS I would get an Autoprop as one day that extra HP and the extra reversing thrust of the Autoprop, might mean the difference of getting off on your own or wating for the tide and Seatow. I know, because I have been lucky enough to be able to (barely) power back off when I have run aground. Just something to think about.
And i know that to be one of the "skinniest" water places around. Lots of shoaling and very shallow. If thats true, I hope you are seriously looking at the wing keel models. if thats true then (all things being equal) the extra 1/2 foot less deep C350 might make the difference one day. But granted it's not that much and you're probably prepared to run aground once in a while. That being said, I would get the biggest motor possible PLUS I would get an Autoprop as one day that extra HP and the extra reversing thrust of the Autoprop, might mean the difference of getting off on your own or wating for the tide and Seatow. I know, because I have been lucky enough to be able to (barely) power back off when I have run aground. Just something to think about.
T, why do you think that is?
Is it because your boat needs more prop in reverse or because you have a wing keel? I hear they 'stick' real hard and are hard to get off.
Is it because your boat needs more prop in reverse or because you have a wing keel? I hear they 'stick' real hard and are hard to get off.
Some is a wing keel thing, but prop makes a huge
difference in reverse. Anytime you get stuck in sand or mud, being able to back out usually is the best thing. This is my first Wing Keel, but backing out is usually the best even without a wing keel. Though without a wing keel one can always try and heel the boat over and lessen the draft. But that takes time and sometimes lots of effort and when the tide is going down, you don't always have a lot of time and every minute counts or you'll be stuck there for a while. I used to have a 3 blade fixed prop and trust me, most fixed props are **very** inefficient in reverse. I touched bottom leaving the Sand Hole one day, I thought no problem, I was going slow so I'll just back out of the small sand spit I touched. I put it into reverse and **nothing**, I didn't move, even with full throttle. So I put it into forward and I was able to "drive" through the sand going forward, and thats with a wing keel. So in this case it was not a case of the wing keel, but rather no power in reverse. What this tells me is that fixed blades are great for going forward, (and tuned that way) but very ineffective in reverse. So I went out and got The Autoprop. The Blades of the Autoprop swing completely around so that the forward thrust is exactly the same as the reverse thrust. And it does make a difference, I have already noticed it. So as far as Wing keels sticking really hard, I have been lucky (knock on wood) that hasn't happened yet, but so far, I have been in areas that are mostly sand. I have heard its the deep thick mud that causes those problems. But then again this is more of an East Coast thing with shallow water and sand shoaling and mud. Not to mention I have 7-8 foot tides around here, so every 6 hours the depths change a lot. But if you sail the west coast with the deeper waters this matters much less. But to really gunkhole around here really helps to have the wing keel, It would be much more difficult to get into some of these areas around here. Note the Chart for one of my favorite places called the Sand Hole. http://mysite.verizon.net/vze32p3k/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sandhole.jpeg I wouldn't be able to enjoy this place as often or as easy without my Wing Keel and an Autoprop http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290594895
difference in reverse. Anytime you get stuck in sand or mud, being able to back out usually is the best thing. This is my first Wing Keel, but backing out is usually the best even without a wing keel. Though without a wing keel one can always try and heel the boat over and lessen the draft. But that takes time and sometimes lots of effort and when the tide is going down, you don't always have a lot of time and every minute counts or you'll be stuck there for a while. I used to have a 3 blade fixed prop and trust me, most fixed props are **very** inefficient in reverse. I touched bottom leaving the Sand Hole one day, I thought no problem, I was going slow so I'll just back out of the small sand spit I touched. I put it into reverse and **nothing**, I didn't move, even with full throttle. So I put it into forward and I was able to "drive" through the sand going forward, and thats with a wing keel. So in this case it was not a case of the wing keel, but rather no power in reverse. What this tells me is that fixed blades are great for going forward, (and tuned that way) but very ineffective in reverse. So I went out and got The Autoprop. The Blades of the Autoprop swing completely around so that the forward thrust is exactly the same as the reverse thrust. And it does make a difference, I have already noticed it. So as far as Wing keels sticking really hard, I have been lucky (knock on wood) that hasn't happened yet, but so far, I have been in areas that are mostly sand. I have heard its the deep thick mud that causes those problems. But then again this is more of an East Coast thing with shallow water and sand shoaling and mud. Not to mention I have 7-8 foot tides around here, so every 6 hours the depths change a lot. But if you sail the west coast with the deeper waters this matters much less. But to really gunkhole around here really helps to have the wing keel, It would be much more difficult to get into some of these areas around here. Note the Chart for one of my favorite places called the Sand Hole. http://mysite.verizon.net/vze32p3k/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sandhole.jpeg I wouldn't be able to enjoy this place as often or as easy without my Wing Keel and an Autoprop http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290594895
T, it depends 'of what part of the west coast ,
you speakith'. We are not immune to grounding in Puget Sound or any part of the northwest. And tidal range,,well let me tell you,,, how does 'over 17' sound'? Of course, that is maximum range during a month but still,, and when we go aground, it could be on anything from soft mud to seaweed to rocks to logs to,, well you get the idea.
you speakith'. We are not immune to grounding in Puget Sound or any part of the northwest. And tidal range,,well let me tell you,,, how does 'over 17' sound'? Of course, that is maximum range during a month but still,, and when we go aground, it could be on anything from soft mud to seaweed to rocks to logs to,, well you get the idea.
Sand Hole
T - Always wanted to overnight at the Sand Hole, but that '3' on the chart makes me nervous! And when you see it from the air, you realize how thin the water is!
T - Always wanted to overnight at the Sand Hole, but that '3' on the chart makes me nervous! And when you see it from the air, you realize how thin the water is!
Yeah, but Greg, you can do it.
Secret for newbies is a) go in on a rising tide b) follow another sailboat in that looks like he knows what he's doing c) Follow the ripple in the water (during tidal flow) and stay right to the edge of it and d) Don't be in a hurry to come and go as you please but go when the tide is rising and you should be ok. I know that 3 Foot mark on that chart is scary but I have personally walked across that spot at dead low tide and there is more than 3 feet depth for about 10 feet wide, its just that you've got to nail it dead on. Heck if you touch, who cares, its not really anything but muck and sand and if you're not in a hurry you just wait for the next tide(easy to say but when its 6 PM on a Sunday and the kids have to be in school the next day and the admiral gives you that look.......). But I can honestly say this is one of the BEST places to anchor overnight on the whole Northeast coast and really worth it. The second I find a spot (yes it can get a lot of boats, but in a fun way, mostly always nice and respectful) and I drop anchor I can feel all my worldly tensions melt away and kids swimming all around...its awesome
Secret for newbies is a) go in on a rising tide b) follow another sailboat in that looks like he knows what he's doing c) Follow the ripple in the water (during tidal flow) and stay right to the edge of it and d) Don't be in a hurry to come and go as you please but go when the tide is rising and you should be ok. I know that 3 Foot mark on that chart is scary but I have personally walked across that spot at dead low tide and there is more than 3 feet depth for about 10 feet wide, its just that you've got to nail it dead on. Heck if you touch, who cares, its not really anything but muck and sand and if you're not in a hurry you just wait for the next tide(easy to say but when its 6 PM on a Sunday and the kids have to be in school the next day and the admiral gives you that look.......). But I can honestly say this is one of the BEST places to anchor overnight on the whole Northeast coast and really worth it. The second I find a spot (yes it can get a lot of boats, but in a fun way, mostly always nice and respectful) and I drop anchor I can feel all my worldly tensions melt away and kids swimming all around...its awesome
Thanks for the info, Tom -
I'll give it a try this year. I assume you know about Eaton's Neck C.G. cove? Same thing, but a little deeper and well marked.
I'll give it a try this year. I assume you know about Eaton's Neck C.G. cove? Same thing, but a little deeper and well marked.
- Status