Catalina 30 vs O'Day 25

Sep 24, 2018
3,316
Catalina 30 MKIII Chicago
I'm considering upgrading to a larger boat. We encounter a lot of waves in Southern Lake Michigan which results in a rather uncomfortable or unsailable conditions. I've been eyeing the Cat 30's and found a tall rig model that appears to be in outstanding condition.

My O'Day 25 has what most of you would consider low cost, simple systems. Outboard rudder, outboard engine, deck stepped mast, MSD porta pottie, tiller steering, encapsulated keel, 25' slip, butane stove, trailer, etc

I know there are more systems which are often complex and costly on a larger boat. Can anyone elaborate on this?

At about double the weight of my 25, I expect this to handle waves much better. Can anyone describe the differences in handling as well single handing (tacking, sail handling, docking, etc)?

I'm hoping that @Ward H can fill in some of these details since he's owned both of these boats.
 
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dmax

.
Jul 29, 2018
1,168
Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
My last boat was a Catalina 30, it's an excellent boat and sails much better than an O'Day 25 (which I have been on) - it's really night and day. The C-30 is a big 30 footer, many 30 footers are really much smaller. Single handling is relatively easy if set up correctly, the loads are manageable. It is a pretty simple boat to maintain and there's lots of help out there - the big difference will be the diesel engine/transmission/prop shaft which will demand some of your time. Otherwise, it's not much more complicated than your current boat.
 
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Aug 2, 2009
651
Catalina 315 Muskegon
I've owned a Grampian 26 for many years, and and O'Day 20, Precision 23, Catalina 28, etc., and am currently the owner of a Catalina 315. Sailing Lake Michigan out of Muskegon.

Docking will be a little different. You'll probably need to do some practicing and learn to cope with and use the prop walk.

You should be able to single hand it if you were able to single hand your O'Day. All the parts will be bigger...bigger Genoa, main, winches, and so on. Flaking the sail will be more of a challenge. Lazy jacks will be helpful.

One of the biggest differences will be going from an outboard to an inboard. Something goes wrong with an outboard, you can unclamp it, toss it in the trunk of your car, and take It to the mechanic of your choosing. Not so with an inboard. You'll be subject to the expertise of the marine service provider in your immediate locale. So, if you don't have some mechanical knowledge and some handiness, you'll need to develop it. You should certainly be able to change your oil and filter, change your transmission oil, do your own winterizing, and be to change fuel filters, and be able to replace a raw water impeller. And, when you have some sort of problem, it will benefit you greatly. if you can, with the assistance of the internet, effect a cure. At least for the simple stuff. You can have your local service provider do all this stuff if your checkbook will withstand it. An outboard is a reasonably good solution on the Great Lakes for boats up to 27 feet, and they have inherent advantages and disadvantages. I think the advantages tend to be overlooked.

If you can handle a 25, you can handle a 30. Unless you're a total putz. Then again, I see a lot of total putzes on Catalina 30's around here.

Bear in mind, when you take your 30 out for the first few times, everything doesn't happen at once. Motor it. Unfurl the Genoa. Sail it that way. Raise the main on another day. Ease into it.

Your expenses will go up. Longer boat equals more storage fees. More bottom paint. More engine expense. Sail replacement costs more. Running rigging is more. Etc.. But, they won't go up a lot.

I've been very happy on the Great Lakes with boats ranging from 28 to 32 feet. Big enough to handle the lake, and small enough to handle relatively easily, and when you sail to another port for the weekend, you're not trying to dock a behemoth at a strange dock.

All this assumes you get a good Catalina 30. There's a lot that can be wrong with any sailboat. Pardon me if you already know this, but a thorough buy pre inspection is important, as is getting the best available survey performed on it (you'll probably need it to get insurance, anyway). If memory serves, in 1986 that Catalina quit using a plywood spacer between the hull and the bolt on keel, The plywood is likely to eventually become waterlogged, and the "Catalina smile" will become evident.

They've made so many of these boats, you have the benefit of a large user group to get you over the rough spots.

PM me if you want to visit Muskegon and take a sail on a 315, if you haven't already tried a boat of this size on the big lake.
 

dmax

.
Jul 29, 2018
1,168
Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
"If memory serves, in 1986 that Catalina quit using a plywood spacer between the hull and the bolt on keel"
Catalina stopped using plywood in the keel stub during the 1988 model year, early 1988's have the plywood. C-30 Mark-II's have some desirable improvements over the Mark I - especially the cockpit changes.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,014
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Catalina 30 Groups Link

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This comes from this sbo thread by weekendrken:

1992 Catalina 30

Also: www.catalina30.com

******************

Engines 101 - The BIGGEST & BEST collection of M25 Series Universal Engine Information on the Internet, plus some M35, too :) This includes a link to the Critical Upgrades topic which has more engine information please read it too.

Diesel Engine - c34.org

*******************
Applicable to the C30, too:

Critical Upgrades http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html
 
Apr 5, 2009
3,105
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
"If memory serves, in 1986 that Catalina quit using a plywood spacer between the hull and the bolt on keel"
Catalina stopped using plywood in the keel stub during the 1988 model year, early 1988's have the plywood. C-30 Mark-II's have some desirable improvements over the Mark I - especially the cockpit changes.
That did not happen until late 88 or early 89.
 
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Jan 4, 2006
7,228
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
Catalina stopped using plywood in the keel stub during the 1988 model year, early 1988's have the plywood. C-30 Mark-II's
That did not happen until late 88 or early 89.

For a non Catalina owner, could you gentlemen please explain the function of the plywood spacer between the fiberglass stub and the lead keel ? I'm only presuming a lead keel here. Thanks.
 
Apr 5, 2009
3,105
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
The keel on all C30's [and other bolted on keels on Catlina boats] are lead. The keel is cast with bolts [mild steel on older boats and stainless steel on newer boats. The keel is bolted to a stub keel that is fiberglass and projects down from the bottom of the hull so that the keel stub joint is 6" - 12" below the bottom of the hull. This is different than the way that Beneteau and many other European boat manufacturers attach their keels.
In the C30 and I assume other Catalinas before sometime in the late 1980's, the bottom of the stub keel was fiberglass, two layers of 1/2" plywood bedded into thickened poly resin. It is then covered over with several layers of glass. This makes a very strong composite base to the stump with good stiffness because the whole thing ends up about 1½" thick. As long as no water ever gets into it, there is no problem.
The problems usually begin with owners who do not understand this and deside to install a nice big automatic bilge pump and mount it by screwing the pump to the bottom of the sump. The screws then leak and water gets into the wood with the result of the wood turning to mush.
 
Jan 4, 2006
7,228
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
This makes a very strong composite base to the stump with good stiffness because the whole thing ends up about 1½" thick
Fine, good, as far as it goes. But WHY ? Because the bottom of the stub is rough and irregular ? Is this a remedy for creating a smooth surface to bolt the top of the smooth lead keel against. Just off the top of my head, why not make a 1" thick plate out of fiberglass rather than plywood and avoid the danger of water ingress ?

Do you know how the keels are attached on a new Catalina hull today ? The net is loaded with the problems of Catalinas with plywood spacer disintegration.
 
Last edited:
Apr 5, 2009
3,105
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Fine, good, as far as it goes. But WHY ? Because the bottom of the stub is rough and irregular ? Is this a remedy for creating a smooth surface to bolt the top of the smooth lead keel against. Just off the top of my head, why not make a 1" thick plate out of fiberglass rather than plywood and avoid the danger of water ingress ?

Do you know how the keels are attached on a new Catalina hull today ? The net is loaded with the problems of Catalinas with plywood spacer disintegration.
They did it because it made a strong and stiff attachment for the keel and will last indefinitely as long as the owner doesn't pock hole in it which will allow water to get in. There is no doubt that there are many posts about repairing the keel but I dare say that the percentage is relatively small compared to the more than 6,000 C30's built.
They used a lot of plywood in the construction of the early Catalina's and frankly I don't think anyone really expected them to still be around this long. I recently saw a yachtworld post for C30 hull #1 and she still looked great and was ready to sail. That boat was made in 1975 so it is now 48-years old. My 1988 still has the plywood in the stub because I have maintained the stub to keep water out of the plywood. I have also advised a guy with a 1984 on how to rebuilt his stub that had a rotten core and he did the work for about $500 in materials. Much cheeper than a new 30-footer.
That said, Catalina found that the plywood was causing problems and removed it in leu of more layers of cloth to build the stiffness beginning in late 1988.
BTW, how many Hunters, Bene's, and others have you seen that have structural grid separation or hull delamination from cored hulls below the waterline.
 
Jun 8, 2004
39
Catalina 36mkII Alameda, CA
O’Day 25 vs. a Catalina 30 is a night and day comparison.
I owned an Oday 25 with a swing keel and an outboard and porta pottie.
It was a great boat while I had it.
What the Catalina 30 offers is a fin keel, much more space with headroom, a much larger cockpit, an inboard engine (gas or diesel), a real stove and oven, large bunks, tiller or pedestal steering, more storage, pressure water and a real head plus.
The Catalina 30 will sail circles around the O’day 25 and is a very good performer in a sea, I know as I sail SF Bay.
In my opinion you cannot go wrong if you find a good condition Catalina 30 .
I was sad for a long time after selling her. The only happy point was I purchased a new Catalina 36 MKII.
Good luck on making your decision.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,014
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I know as I sail SF Bay.
In my opinion you cannot go wrong if you find a good condition Catalina 30 .
We bought a fin keeled C25 after sailing our C22 from 1983 to 1987. The C25 was a great boat for SF Bay, The Delta and all the way to Monterey. We looked for a year for C30s, but eventually decided on our C34 in 1998, eventually sailed to BC here in 2016. The C30 is a great boat with a vibrant and responsive owners group so you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
 
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Jan 7, 2011
5,493
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
I started on a Hunter 280. 7500# displacement or so, but with wheel steering and a diesel inboard.

Moved to my O’Day 322 after about 5 years. About 10,250# displacement. Feels like a much bigger boat, and I am very comfortable and confident on her sailing our south Lake Michigan waters.

She will still bounce in the waves…but she handles them with a bit more aplomb .

Here is a sail from last year, one of those days we had north winds, 5-6 foot waves, sometimes 8-10. Never shows up in film, but there was a small craft advisory for large seas and lots of wind.


There is more to take care of…and more cost. But if you do your own maintenance, you can manage the costs. And storage, slip fees, etc go up with a larger boat.

Attached is a file I keep of my maintenance/upgrade costs since I purchased Tally Ho...

Boat Projects and Costs
YearItemCost
2014Purchase Tally Ho $22,000
20142) 5# propane tanks $ 65.00
2014Strut bearing
2014 Total $ 65.00
2015Canvas Cover (The Canvas Shop) $ 1,940.00
2015Mac Pack - Mack Sails $ 880.00
2015Gaurhauer Rope Clutch (D&R Marine) $ 200.00
2015 Total $ 3,020.00
2016Jib sheets (Tom bought them)
2016 Total $ -
2017B&G V50 VHF radio with AIS and H50 handheld radio with cradle & N2K Cable $ 498.00
2017SS Prop shaft and coupling - Crowleys $ 450.00
2017 Total $ 948.00
20183/8" halyard - Cajun Ropes $ 105.00
2018LED lights in main cabin $ 24.00
2018 Total $ 129.00
2019Rebuilt Raritan head $ 63.00
2019Replace toilet sanitation hose (Trident 101) Amazon $ 95.00
2019 Potable water strainer (Amazon) $ 8.00
2019New fuel gauge (Amazon) $ 25.00
2019Rebed main hatch
2019 Total $ 191.00
2020Shaft Zinc (Magnesium) - Amazon $ 20.00
2020New Main Sail with full battens - North Sail $ 2,660.00
2020Tides Marine Strong Track $ 375.00
2020White trim and doors
2020 Total $ 3,055.00
20212) 6-volt Golf Cart batteries (Sam's Club) $ 140.00
2021Perch seat cushions (SBO auction) $ 22.00
2021Shaft Zinc (Magnesium) - Amazon $ 20.00
2021Above-the-waterline thru hulls (11 pieces) $ 110.00
2021 Total $ 292.00
2022Battery fuse holder, 225 amp fuse & cable $ 62.00
2022New fire extinguishers
2022Volvo Penta shaft seal $ 122.00
2022Raymarine ST6002 Autopilot with rudder sensor - Ebay $ 800.00
2022Shaft Zinc (Magnesium) - Amazon $ 22.00
2022Galley sink drain & new skin fitting (Amazon & drain line) $ 40.00
2022 Total $ 1,046.00
2023North Sail 135 genoa $ 2,250.00
2023topping lift (90' 3/8") Cajun Ropes $ 80.00
2023Used Seldon Rock kicker - ($50 spring + $70 shipping+$50) $ 170.00
2023Climbing gear (2 ascenders, Gri Gri, carabiners) for climbing mast $ 250.00
2023Windex Light $ 29.00
2023Shaft Zinc (Magnesium) - Amazon $ 22.00
2023 Total $ 2,801.00
Grand TotalNot including boat purchase $ 11,547.00
 
Jan 4, 2006
7,228
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
They did it because it made a strong and stiff attachment for the keel
Can't really see how adding a layer of anything between the stub and keel adds anything to the final assembly but so be it. I do know from my research that the Hunter (for I don't know how many years) has only a finished surface on both the stub and the keel which are butted together with 5200 between for sealing the keel bolts.

BTW, how many Hunters, Bene's, and others have you seen that have structural grid separation or hull delamination from cored hulls below the waterline.
That's something I'd rather not know as I have enough sleepless nights with my own boat problems.
 
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Apr 5, 2009
3,105
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Can't really see how adding a layer of anything between the stub and keel adds anything to the final assembly but so be it. I do know from my research that the Hunter (for I don't know how many years) has only a finished surface on both the stub and the keel which are butted together with 5200 between for sealing the keel bolts.



That's something I'd rather not know as I have enough sleepless nights with my own boat problems.
You have a misunderstanding of the plywood in the Catalina keel stubs. It is not a layer of plywood between the keel stub and the keel. It is a sandwich composite inside the stub. The hull mold has the stub integrated into it. The bottom mating surface of the stub is aproximatly 5/8" thick of solid glass that is perfectly flat and smooth as is the top of the lead keel. The plywood is bedded into the inside surface of the stub with Mung (resin mixed with loose chopped strand fibers) which fills the irregularities in the interior surface of the stub layup. Then another layer of plywood is bonded to the first. This is then covered with several layers of cloth that go over the plywood and wrap up the inside surface of the stub. This way the plywood is fully encapsulated and makes up a 1½" composite structure that has the same strength and stiffness of more than an inch of solid laminate.
The keel which is solid lead as opposed to cast iron on many of the Hunter and Beneteau boats, is bolted to the bottom of the stub with 5200 and SS keel bolts. Here is the repair procedure that Catalina came up with to modify the older boats with the plywood composite to solid glass like was done in the later boats.

keelstub (2).gif
 

Ward H

.
Nov 7, 2011
3,777
Catalina 30 Mk II Cedar Creek, Bayville NJ
@Project_Mayhem
For me the O'day 25 was a great starter boat. It had simple systems which allowed me to concentrate on learning to sail. I never used the on board water system and it had a basic head. Our pump out boat had no problem pumping it out if I left the tank in the cockpit.
I found the O'day very responsive and fun to sail.
Then one day I got tired of rounding up in gusts while bigger boats sailed by and they didn't even spill the wine when hit by the same gust. The wife, now ex, got tired of missing sail days due to rougher water and higher winds so we decided to look at C30's.
Systems wise it was a much longer learning curve.
First I learned electrical and upgraded the wiring harness that still was a problem in my 93. Then I upgraded the battery, start and charging system.
Then I had to learn how to keep water out of the boat. Through hulls were inspected/replaced. Shaft seal was in good shape.
Then I had to learn about sanitation systems. I opted to upgrade to an electric fresh water flush system.
Then I had to learn about the fresh water system.
Of course I had to learn about diesel systems but this learning curve wasn't as steep as the others.
I'm mechanically inclined so I did all the work on these systems which of course kept the cost down.
Note - When I committed myself to buying a bigger boat I also committed to do all the work myself. If I had to hire it out I wouldn't have been able to afford the bigger boat. Now all I know all the parts/systems much better than if I had others do the work. If there is a problem I can trouble shoot it much faster.

Learning to handle the bigger boat was one of the easier parts of the learning curve. And yes, it will cut through waves and wakes much smoother. Working on the deck is much easier as the boat is much stabler.

When I asked a similar question when I started looking at the C30. One comment that especially helped in my decision was: Compare the boats to dancing. The O'day 25 would be a break dancer and the C30 would be a ballet dancer.

Hope that all helps with your decision.
 
Jan 4, 2006
7,228
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
You have a misunderstanding of the plywood in the Catalina keel stubs.
Thanks Hayden, at last a picture, thousand words, etc you know the old saying.

Now that I see how it WAS done, my only question once again is WHY ? Why cheap out and build up with plywood when heavy FG cloth is so much stronger and no worry about anyone punching a screw into the wood.

I've never been able to find anything on how they treat their keel assemblies now but I can guess it's the same as this repair job is done without plywood but before the keel bolts are installed to get in the way.
 
Apr 5, 2009
3,105
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
I do not know about the new boats but to the best of my knowledge Catalina has modified this detail across the fleet.

As to why, that is unanswerable. Probably the same reason that Hunter used mild steel angle iron for their chainplate anchorage buried behind the cabinets where it cannot be seen or replaced. Or why they chose to use cast iron for many keels instead of lead. Any construction is a long list of decisions all of which have tradeoffs regarding cost, strength, longevity, maintenance....
 
Apr 5, 2009
3,105
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
25-years ago, I moved from 1980 Catalina 25 with swing keel and outboard to our current boat which is a 1988 Catalina 30 tall rig w/ bow sprit. It must have been a good decision for us because was are still in love with Papillon. When we went out for the test sail after the survey, I remember my wife looking up at the mast and main sail and saying to me "Are you sure we can do this?" because the rig was so much bigger. The design sail area for the O'day25 and C25 are both 270SF. The C30 tr/bs is 505SF. Yah, the C30 is a lot bigger than a 25-ft'er. Fun fact, the extrusion that Catalina used for the C25' is the same as the extrusion for the boom on a C30.
For me, the increase in size did not pose any boat handling problems. I typically make-way and dock by myself because Sue is down below taking care of stowage and cleaning issues.
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,249
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I have found that the extra space that you have in the cockpit of a larger boat actually makes sailing easier and less complicated. In particular, if you have guests or family on board who are not prone to handling the sail controls, the larger cockpit space allows them to be passive without being in the way.
 
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