Catalina 270 Tuning

Don Guillette · Apr 18, 2011

Simplygern: As I understand what you're saying - you only have cabin top roof tracks and you don't have tracks mounted on or near the rail. Hopefully, Joe from San Diego will chime in on this as he has a C27.

Here's the purpose of track placement - the inside tracks are for closehauled work and the outside tracks are for all other points of sail. Serious racers have both sets of tracks. Boat manufactures are trying to make as much as they can on every boat and generally they place tracks outboard mainly because most sailors (cruisers) don't know the difference anyway regardless of where they are placed. Additionally, most sailors don't even move the fairleads cars - most I've seen are rusted in place. You are adjusting your fairleads - right? With a masthead rig, your engine is the jib.

Rolling up the 150 is not the answer because it is very difficult, in my opinion, to trim a rolled up jib to 100% efficiency. Some mates say they can do it but it is hard for me. My jib was either "in" or "out". I never liked the 155 I had on my C30. It was too large for me to mess with singlehanded so I sold it and bought a high cut 135. The first time I used it I didn't like that either so I sold it and bought a 135 almost deck sweeper - the foot was a little below the safety lines. I really liked that sail. I could trim that baby to the 9's.

When Joe from San Diego (that's not his real name that's just what I call him) checks in he will help you out. StuJ had a C27 I think and he'll have some ideas too. Richh might have a suggestion or two as will maybe some other C27 sailors that frequent this list.

You have a very nice boat and I don't see why it wouldn't be competiitive against other C27/22's. I wonder what they are doing that you're not doing?

Don Guillette · Apr 18, 2011

Simplygern: If I were you I'd install tracks on the rails. I now see the problem - the cabin track is too short for your 150. I should have thought of that from the jump. On the C30, I really wanted to use the cabin top tracks but I had a big problem with the safety lines. I spent hours and went though a lot of beer trying to figure a way around them using small Garhauer snatch blocks but finally gave up.

If you had outside tracks, which are not very expensive, you could use a barberhauler for your closehauled work. The cabin top tracks will probably never work with the 150 - they would not have worked for me on the C30. The Barberhauler was my solution and it worked great and it would also work for you. You probably know how a Barberhauler works but if you don't just sing out. If any other forum listers are unfamiliar with the term and how it works just do the same.

It will interesting to see Joe's suggestion.

Joe · Apr 18, 2011

Don and SimplyGern: Don's analysis is correct... the cabin top track is designed for a smaller, flatter sail... so the bottom line is, you can't trim the headsail.. or the mainsail.. properly.... that equals..... slow!

Before we begin..... do not blame Catalina for the lack of genoa tracks... blame the guy who ordered the boat and was too cheap to include the option.

So.. the quick fix is to lash a block to the rail to get the clew outboard. You might use a stanchion base as an attachment point... or perhaps install a padeye on deck in the approximate neutral position. Determine this position by unrolling the sail and drawing a virtual line from the luff's midpoint through the clew (bisecting the angle) down to the deck. This will give you a point where there is equal force on foot and leech and is a good location for a non-adjustable lead. Use the schematic below to help you.

If you want to add an adjustment feature..locate the lead block padeye back a foot from the neutral position and place another padeye/block on the deck a few feet forward. Use the forward block to rig a control line that you can connect to the jibsheet allowing you to bring its downward angle forward... closing the leech.. powering up the sail. You can use a block on the control line to contain the sheet, or a simple eyesplice with a thimble would work as well.... You can also use this technique to easily rig a barber hauler... except the control line would be run though the lead on the inside track.

The biggest issue here is that you may not have large enough winch power to easily handle the 135% genoa. If you rig the outboard lead blocks in the optimal position you will have difficulty using the cabin top winches... but do the best you can. Make sure you put large backing plates under the deck padeyes.

Ultimately... your problem needs to be addressed.... you need a genoa track. (Or a smaller racing sail.) If you think you can stil use the cabin winches.. invest in the genoa track first and a set of simple, pin stop sliding lead cars. I recommend 1" T-track... do not buy the harken track...it's proprietary and restricts you to harken products only... Many companies make products that fit standard 1" t-track.

Next... start looking for some winches. You should insist on two-speed winches... if you can afford self-tailing models... great.. you'll get your money back when you sell the boat, but 2 speed is paramount for making small trim adjustments. For racing.... standard winches are faster and better for crew work. ST is really good for singlehanding but not very fast operating. Size wise I wouldn't get anything smaller than a #28...#30 is recommended by Catalina. If you're patient and persistant you might be able to find an older set of standard two speed winches from people wanting to upgrade to self-tailing models. Look for Barient or Barlow... If you can't find any... well you've got decisions to make..and this is the major one, so think it through.

Purchase your sheet cleats based on 3/8" maximum line size. I have cam cleats on risers for my setup. Remember, no fairleads on the cleats, no captive line cleats such as rope clutches or Spinlock PXR type.... you want to be able to pull the sheet vertically off the drum when you're racing... .. the cleat goes behind the winch... not between the winch and lead block like halyards.

I've posted a factory schematic from 270 owner's manual so you can see the appoximate location of everything. If you get a longer track...say 6 ft., put the extra length at the rear so you can accommodate the Garhaurer EZ glide lead car system you'll eventually want to install... my source is www.catalina27.org that's the owner's group you should have bookmarked and I know you will study it religiously from this point forward.

The genoa track rig was a factory option. The extra parts are listed. It is also likely that the boat was sold with a smaller sail... and at some point a larger sail was purchased without considering its new requirements. I would be highly distressed if the boat came from the factory with a genoa sail and no genoa equipment.

In any event, it is what it is. Now that you know the problem, you can choose the solution. The Cadillac solution, 2 speed ST winches, track, EZ glide lead cars from Garhaurer and all fasteners will set you back around $2000. The budget system, with non-adjustable genoa blocks fixed to the decks can be accomplished for under $150. Control lines.. add $50. The bargain hunters solution... used barient 2 speed standard winches.... under $600.

Good luck... please feel free to PM me if you want some further help. Once you get rigged up Don can advise you with the sail trim scenarios.

RichH · Apr 19, 2011

Ive been 'setting up' (and crew on) a C27 for optimized racing trim, etc.

With the std C27 (genoa tracks on the rail), several things are quite important: Slot opening distance, Double genoa tracks or BARBERHAULER, proper/exact forestay tension.

On most boats, the fairlead angle (angle that the fairlead car TO the tack of the forestay makes) that usually sets an 'angle of attack' - or tack to clew angle - normally optimizes at 10degress away from the boats centerline for 'close' pointing, a little more (say 12°) for 'speed' pointing in the higher windranges (~15kts.) ... the 12° needed to 'open' the slot distance for maximum speed in max. windstrength for a 150% genoa. Without the ability to reposition to the 12degree (or more!!!) line the 'slot' will usually 'choke' and what one sees is "clew section" of the sail being 'hooked to weather', and the mainsail easily 'backwinded' ..... boat is slower and aggressively heels with reduces 'pointing ability'.

On the C27 (genoa tracks on the rail) with 150% and at 15kts, we start with genoa sheeted to the rail (at about the 10-12° tack to clew line and all the genoa tell tales flying 'perfect'), and then 'barberhaul' the clew inboard to get the max speed and max. pointing angle (combined VMG). As the sail powers-up and the winch pressure increases, we need to definitely readjust forestay tension (via the backstay tensioner) OR the result of the sagging forestay is to also 'hook up the leech' of the genoa to weather - slow, closes the slot (backwinding) in the higher wind ranges, when you want the slot 'more open'.

So thus far for gaining maximum or optimum out of the C27 with a 150% ...
1. the forestay (backstay) needs to be very carefully tensioned (if too loose, the genoa leech hooks up and can close the slot opening distance),
2. the slot opening distance is very 'finicky' (backwinding - needs to be controlled with a barber hauler, in OR out)....
3. and if too much winch pressure is applied to the jib sheets the forestay increases sag which again or additionally causes the leech to 'hook up' (and we additionally tension the backstay adjuster to match.
To simplify all this - we need to carefully adjust the backstay, jib sheet tension, and most importantly - barber haul in/out to get the optimum slot-opening distance.

With the genoa tracks on the coach roof on the 270, you have just the opposite problem with maintaining slot distance and genoa leech shape .... you probably need to reduce jibsheet tension but that can put a big 'curve' into the leech shape (and the leech exit should be FLAT and parallel to the boats centerline). To do this you'll probably need to install genoa tracks on the rail (or a method to apply a barberhauler from the rail to pull the clew 'outboard') ... and/or barberhaul IN/OUT using the coachroof tracks.

If the genoa is on a furler foil, when racing Id disconnect from the drum and position the TACK of the genoa as absolutely as low to the deck as possible .... artificially 'lengthening' the tracks on the coachroof ... 'more aft'.

Id recommend a set program to figure this all out to gain 'optimum':
1. First, as a 'check', if you are using a woven dacron mainsail ... the main has to set/shaped to perfection BEFORE you do anyother adjustments: How to properly RAISE a woven dacron mainsail - http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=120970
2. http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j449/svAquila/MatchingLuffHollow.gif to be sure that youre running correct forestay tension (and getting correct genoa shape).
3. apply a temporary barber hauler to the RAIL and test (and record) the differences (windspeed vs. pointing angle/boat speed). .... and then make a decision as to if and where to apply additional genoa tracks on the RAIL, etc.
4. dont 'overtension' the genoa sheets without a corresponding increase of backstay tension !!!!!!!!!!

The below pic. shows the approx. fairlead angles for the C270 ..... the coachroof tracks on the 270 seem to be well 'inside' of the normal 10° fairlead-tack angle .... suggesting the need for rail tracks and/or barberhaulers when using a BIG jib.
Simple speak: it 'seems' that the coach roof tracks are 'too far inboard' to be used with a 150% in other than 'very light' wind conditions.

hope this helps.

RichH · Apr 19, 2011

Joe .... do you have a 'larger' plan view of the 270 that includes the mast and forestay tack? With the coachroof tracks of the 270 sooooo close to the CLine, Id suspect (as in my post) that these tracks are well inside the 10° line. A total 'plan' view can easily sort this out.

W/r to the added 1" Ttrack mounted to the deck, I'd mount them ON and angled along the ~10° line, not parallel to the 'other' tracks (easier to adjust/correct when a barberhauler is needed --- otherwise one needs to make '2' adjustments every time a 'car' change is made.

Don Guillette · Apr 19, 2011

Simplygern: If you follow the advise of Joe from San Diego and RichH you'll have the fastest C27 in your fleet. Your brother racres will wonder where you got your knowledge so quickly and what you've done to your boat. Don't tell them - until you whoop up on them a couple of times!!!

Joe · Apr 19, 2011

RichH said:
Joe .... do you have a 'larger' plan view of the 270 that includes the mast and forestay tack? With the coachroof tracks of the 270 sooooo close to the CLine, Id suspect (as in my post) that these tracks are well inside the 10° line. A total 'plan' view can easily sort this out.

W/r to the added 1" Ttrack mounted to the deck, I'd mount them ON and angled along the ~10° line, not parallel to the 'other' tracks (easier to adjust/correct when a barberhauler is needed --- otherwise one needs to make '2' adjustments every time a 'car' change is made.

Those plans are available on the International Catalina 27/270 association website.

I agree with your assessment of creating the correct lead angles... however.. the possibility of technology overload limited my response to providing:

- The primary cause of his headsail trimming problem

- A quick fix so he can race next week without spending thousands of dollars

- A few suggestions to get the rig right.

As for racing advice........ well there are dozens of books on that subject that are far more credible than I. All we can do is try to make it simple.

My first suggestion is Tom Whidden's "The Art and Science of Sails".... Lead or sheet angles, mast tuning, sail trim, crew assignments, sail choice etc. are examined. The second suggestion is Adam Cort's "Getting Started in Sailboat Racing" a comprehensive overview of campaigning a sail boat, including preparation, speed, tactics and rules... very very good.
And finally, of course, there is Don Guillette's Sail Trim Chart and User's Guide

SimplyGern.... even if you are only interested in very casual racing... studying these 3 books will make you better than half the guys you race... Good luck.

OldCat · May 9, 2011

SimplyGern said:
Hi Don,
I have a 1994 Catalina 270 with a 150 jib that I occasionally race. Against either Catalina 27's or Catalina 22's, I am just not competitive.
Thanks

Just out of curiosity - and what I have seen of a not so actively trimmed C270 around here - how shifty and gusty are the winds on your lake?

I think that I will edit this post:

My experience observing the C270 & similar boats a number of times:

In gusty conditions the broader beam seems to make the boat more prone to a broach - I had one wipe out just behind my stern - glad I had gotten far enough ahead and to windward.

The wheel seems to be slower to get the boat adapted to large wind shifts than a tiller - maybe that just means the sailors that I get into impromptu races with are not as good as the experts here - but still - the wheel seems to require more skill from the crew in gusty and shifty conditions than a tiller.

By big wind shifts - I mean a shift that will totally stall the sails - or backwind the headsail if action is not taken. I think that this adds up to needing active trimmers - and some decisions about when/how much to steer/trim and when to tack for a shift, i.e, will the shift last long enough to make a tack worthwhile.

The C270 can be sailed fast - but I also think it takes a more active crew than a smaller tiller steered boat like my C22.

OC
P.S.: humor last weekend would have been a video of me trying to reef and take the reef out of my new reefing system in shifty winds

. I should have tried it in easier conditions first & been more careful about how much to roll in the headsail so the boat would heave too with more stability. Sure hope no one took a video for youtube

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Catalina 270 Tuning

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