I have a 1994 Catalina 270. The vent for the black water tank is vented through one of the stanchions on deck. Recently I was pumping/removing the water from the head when the water started squirting out the holes in the stanchion. (not very pleasant...) Clearly, something is blocked, but do you have any advice on where to start?
Catalina 270 head issue
- Thread starter SimplyGern
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Nothing is blocked...Your holding tank is full
SO full that it's overflowing out the vent. Pumping it out should solve the problem.
Letting that happen will create a blocked vent, though...so after you've pumped out, you need to thoroughly rinse out the tank and then fill it to overflowing with clean water...letting the water run long enough to let plenty of water rinse out the vent. Put the water into the tank via the deck pumpout fitting.
Holding tanks should be thoroughly rinsed out 2-3 x/season anyway--and especially in preparation for winter or other extended layup--to flush out any sludge. You'll find more information about how to rinse out out a tank in the discussions in this forum.
You might also check out the link in my signature...it goes to a comprehensive "marine toilets and holding tanks 101" manual that'll teach you how to operate and maintain your system to prevent problems instead of having to solve 'em.
SO full that it's overflowing out the vent. Pumping it out should solve the problem.
Letting that happen will create a blocked vent, though...so after you've pumped out, you need to thoroughly rinse out the tank and then fill it to overflowing with clean water...letting the water run long enough to let plenty of water rinse out the vent. Put the water into the tank via the deck pumpout fitting.
Holding tanks should be thoroughly rinsed out 2-3 x/season anyway--and especially in preparation for winter or other extended layup--to flush out any sludge. You'll find more information about how to rinse out out a tank in the discussions in this forum.
You might also check out the link in my signature...it goes to a comprehensive "marine toilets and holding tanks 101" manual that'll teach you how to operate and maintain your system to prevent problems instead of having to solve 'em.
Ugh, thanks Peggy, that's embarrassing....I very rarely use it so didn't think that could be the problem. I own your book already because I've been fighting odors since I purchased the boat 1 1/2 yrs ago.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
Which brings up "how many flushes can my tank hold?"
How fast a holding tank fills up always comes as a surprise to new owners...so here's the math you need to know how much your tank holds:
The average adult uses the toilet 5x/24 hours...average flush volume: .6 gals. So that's an average of 3 gals/day per each person continuously aboard. So a couple spending two days and nights on an anchor will put 6 gallons/day or a total of 12 gallons into a tank in just a weekend. It doesn't take a math genius to figure out that a family of 4 will overflow a 20 gal tank in a single weekend.
Federal law (33 CFR 159.83) requires that all "sewage retention devices (gov-speak for "holding tanks") must have a means of indicating when the device is more than3/4 full by volume." That means a tank level indicator is required UNLESS the tank is made of a material and is also in a location that allows you to determine that by visual inspection.
The best--price, quality, reliability-- waste tank indicators on the market IMO (and a LOT of folks here will agree with me!) are the Profile gauges Profile Tank Monitors Sender goes on the outside of the tank, making it easy to install, clog proof...and Dennis Ferriello provides the best customer service on the planet!
How fast a holding tank fills up always comes as a surprise to new owners...so here's the math you need to know how much your tank holds:
The average adult uses the toilet 5x/24 hours...average flush volume: .6 gals. So that's an average of 3 gals/day per each person continuously aboard. So a couple spending two days and nights on an anchor will put 6 gallons/day or a total of 12 gallons into a tank in just a weekend. It doesn't take a math genius to figure out that a family of 4 will overflow a 20 gal tank in a single weekend.
Federal law (33 CFR 159.83) requires that all "sewage retention devices (gov-speak for "holding tanks") must have a means of indicating when the device is more than3/4 full by volume." That means a tank level indicator is required UNLESS the tank is made of a material and is also in a location that allows you to determine that by visual inspection.
The best--price, quality, reliability-- waste tank indicators on the market IMO (and a LOT of folks here will agree with me!) are the Profile gauges Profile Tank Monitors Sender goes on the outside of the tank, making it easy to install, clog proof...and Dennis Ferriello provides the best customer service on the planet!
You can put a site glass in...
You'd have to be able to see the side of the tank, so if it's a PE tank in location that lets you see the side of it, you don't have to do anything.
An inspection port wouldn't work, but a site glass would. But why put a hole in the tank if you don't have to? The senders for the Profile gauges go on the outside of the tank. And you can put the panel anywhere that's easy to see.
You'd have to be able to see the side of the tank, so if it's a PE tank in location that lets you see the side of it, you don't have to do anything.
An inspection port wouldn't work, but a site glass would. But why put a hole in the tank if you don't have to? The senders for the Profile gauges go on the outside of the tank. And you can put the panel anywhere that's easy to see.
in a way that is a good thing based on the abilities of the wema unit....it will solve a gauge problem for me in regards to the fuel,watertank #1 and #2 and the holding tank as well...thanks for the reply Peggie....
regards
woody
A couple of suggestions for both of you
First, Woody... Wema gauges are fine for water and fuel, but the animal fats in waste will clog up any sender inside a tank...requiring removal to clean it. If you want to do that, it's ok with me...but I wouldn't. And you'd have to put a new hole in the top of the tank to install it.
Now...about that toilet replacement... If it's a Jabsco, you want to replace it. Check this out: sbo.com PHII PHC LBA Both versions use the same pump--which has been rated the best manual toilet in its class for at least 3 decades...the PHC is just mounted on a compact base and has a 4" shorter handle than the PH II.
First, Woody... Wema gauges are fine for water and fuel, but the animal fats in waste will clog up any sender inside a tank...requiring removal to clean it. If you want to do that, it's ok with me...but I wouldn't. And you'd have to put a new hole in the top of the tank to install it.
Now...about that toilet replacement... If it's a Jabsco, you want to replace it. Check this out: sbo.com PHII PHC LBA Both versions use the same pump--which has been rated the best manual toilet in its class for at least 3 decades...the PHC is just mounted on a compact base and has a 4" shorter handle than the PH II.
thanks Peggie i was planning on the wema for water and fuel and the band type for the holding tank ...i think i remember you saying that once before about the animal fat...glad you reminded me.....
regards
woody
Why not go with Profile for all the tanks?
They make a system that'll handle up to 8 tanks (I think they use a Wema sender in a diesel tank) on a single panel...very reasonably priced. I'll get Dennis in here to 'splain it.
They make a system that'll handle up to 8 tanks (I think they use a Wema sender in a diesel tank) on a single panel...very reasonably priced. I'll get Dennis in here to 'splain it.
Monitor Panel for Water, Waste & Fuel
Woodster: Just looking at the above posts. First our Legacy panel 8 tank will read most sensors on the market. We recommend the WEMA SSL for fuel. Our panel has settings for how often you want the panel to check the level, it warns you when the waste tank is 85% full and a fresh Water and Fuel is down to 15% Our external sensor reads through composite tanks so no hole drilling. You will be surprised all the settings you can do with our panel, you name the tanks, when you want the back light to come on and many other items.
Take a look on my site:
www.ferriellosales.com
dennis@ferriellosales.com
Drop me a note with your phone number so we can talk.
I am have a very special spring sale for the Sailboat Owners site.
Thanks so much for your time.
Dennis Ferriello
Ferriello Sales LLC
Woodster: Just looking at the above posts. First our Legacy panel 8 tank will read most sensors on the market. We recommend the WEMA SSL for fuel. Our panel has settings for how often you want the panel to check the level, it warns you when the waste tank is 85% full and a fresh Water and Fuel is down to 15% Our external sensor reads through composite tanks so no hole drilling. You will be surprised all the settings you can do with our panel, you name the tanks, when you want the back light to come on and many other items.
Take a look on my site:
www.ferriellosales.com
dennis@ferriellosales.com
Drop me a note with your phone number so we can talk.
I am have a very special spring sale for the Sailboat Owners site.
Thanks so much for your time.
Dennis Ferriello
Ferriello Sales LLC
Last edited by a moderator:
Peggy/Dennis -
First, I wanted to let you know that after almost a year of deferring the work, I finally installed my Profile Solo monitors on holding and water tanks this past week. Very easy to install, and they're working fine although I have yet to calibrate them for the "full" setting.
Dennis, FYI I found it helpful to make a template out of a 3"x5" index card for the cut-out for the panel. Once I cut the opening, I also found it helpful to use a rasp to cut a semi-round "dimple" in the bottom center of the cut-out, to better take the wires coming out of the bottom of the circuit board. Finally, I used gimlets to cut the necessary screw holes in the lexan front of the panel, easy to make the holes and no chance of overheating/melting as there might have been if I used a power drill.
Second, Peggy, I have a regulatory question for you. I see above that you've referenced 33 CFR 159.83 as requiring a level indicator on all holding tanks. I had to do some research on MSD requirements this past week to get our yacht club ready for the required annual State of Alabama MSD inspections, and in connection with that ran over the CFRs on Type III MSD (holding tank) certifications and such.
What I found is this: Type III certifications are generally covered by 33 CFR 159.12a, for Type IIIs that store sewage under ambient pressure and temperature and are designed to prevent overboard discharge. Type III certified under this section, "need not comply with the other regulations in this part..." so long as they meet the ambient pressure/temperature and discharge prevention requirements, except as relate to Type IIIs installed on Coast Guard inspected vessels.
I'm not a lawyer but I spent a lot of years doing regulatory work. 159.12a could be read to exempt holding tanks that meet the requirements of the section, from the other technical requirements of Part 159 including the level indicator. Have you seen the requirement interpreted this way? I've looked at a lot of holding tank-equipped boats through the years (friends' and boats I've looked at to purchase), and I've seen relatively few with monitors installed. The manufacturers, at least those in the 70s-80s, didn't seem to be routinely installing monitors in their boats.
That said, I think monitors are a very good idea, required or not; that's why I installed them on my boat. I got tired of the using the usual methods of monitoring how full the tank was, e.g., toilet backing up and sewage coming out the air vent. Since our current boat has a 9 gallon holding tank, I wanted to be able to find out the tank was approaching full, before resorting to those less-than-satisfactory methods.
Thanks for the recommendation on the Profile monitors, I think I'm going to be very happy with them!
Mike Turner
Lazyjack 32 schooner "Mary'Lis"
Mobile Bay, Alabama
First, I wanted to let you know that after almost a year of deferring the work, I finally installed my Profile Solo monitors on holding and water tanks this past week. Very easy to install, and they're working fine although I have yet to calibrate them for the "full" setting.
Dennis, FYI I found it helpful to make a template out of a 3"x5" index card for the cut-out for the panel. Once I cut the opening, I also found it helpful to use a rasp to cut a semi-round "dimple" in the bottom center of the cut-out, to better take the wires coming out of the bottom of the circuit board. Finally, I used gimlets to cut the necessary screw holes in the lexan front of the panel, easy to make the holes and no chance of overheating/melting as there might have been if I used a power drill.
Second, Peggy, I have a regulatory question for you. I see above that you've referenced 33 CFR 159.83 as requiring a level indicator on all holding tanks. I had to do some research on MSD requirements this past week to get our yacht club ready for the required annual State of Alabama MSD inspections, and in connection with that ran over the CFRs on Type III MSD (holding tank) certifications and such.
What I found is this: Type III certifications are generally covered by 33 CFR 159.12a, for Type IIIs that store sewage under ambient pressure and temperature and are designed to prevent overboard discharge. Type III certified under this section, "need not comply with the other regulations in this part..." so long as they meet the ambient pressure/temperature and discharge prevention requirements, except as relate to Type IIIs installed on Coast Guard inspected vessels.
I'm not a lawyer but I spent a lot of years doing regulatory work. 159.12a could be read to exempt holding tanks that meet the requirements of the section, from the other technical requirements of Part 159 including the level indicator. Have you seen the requirement interpreted this way? I've looked at a lot of holding tank-equipped boats through the years (friends' and boats I've looked at to purchase), and I've seen relatively few with monitors installed. The manufacturers, at least those in the 70s-80s, didn't seem to be routinely installing monitors in their boats.
That said, I think monitors are a very good idea, required or not; that's why I installed them on my boat. I got tired of the using the usual methods of monitoring how full the tank was, e.g., toilet backing up and sewage coming out the air vent. Since our current boat has a 9 gallon holding tank, I wanted to be able to find out the tank was approaching full, before resorting to those less-than-satisfactory methods.
Thanks for the recommendation on the Profile monitors, I think I'm going to be very happy with them!
Mike Turner
Lazyjack 32 schooner "Mary'Lis"
Mobile Bay, Alabama
You've misinterpreted it
If you read the table of contents for 33 CFR 159, you'll see that the whole of 159.11-19 (Subpart B--Certification Procedures) deals entirely with regulations for CERTIFICATION of Types I, II, III MSDs, and spells out in detail the process necessary for certification of Types I and II (treatment devices). 159.12a only exempts Type IIIs from any requirement to follow the procedures for certification required for Types I and II and grants automatic certification as a Type III to any device that meets the criteria set forth in 159.12a(1) "It is used solely for the storage of sewage and flushwater at ambient air pressure and temperature," and in 159.53(c) "Be designed to prevent the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage."
It does not alter the requirements set forth in Subpart C of 159, "design, construction and testing"--which is where you'll find the requirement for "a means of indicating when the device is more than 3/4 full by volume"--or any other part of the CFR.
You have to be careful to keep the various provisions in their right context, or you can tie yourself up in what appear to be contradictory knots!
I had to do some research on MSD requirements this past week to get our yacht club ready for the required annual State of Alabama MSD inspections...
If you'd like to run what you came up with by me before you submit it, I'll be glad to check it over.
If you read the table of contents for 33 CFR 159, you'll see that the whole of 159.11-19 (Subpart B--Certification Procedures) deals entirely with regulations for CERTIFICATION of Types I, II, III MSDs, and spells out in detail the process necessary for certification of Types I and II (treatment devices). 159.12a only exempts Type IIIs from any requirement to follow the procedures for certification required for Types I and II and grants automatic certification as a Type III to any device that meets the criteria set forth in 159.12a(1) "It is used solely for the storage of sewage and flushwater at ambient air pressure and temperature," and in 159.53(c) "Be designed to prevent the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage."
It does not alter the requirements set forth in Subpart C of 159, "design, construction and testing"--which is where you'll find the requirement for "a means of indicating when the device is more than 3/4 full by volume"--or any other part of the CFR.
You have to be careful to keep the various provisions in their right context, or you can tie yourself up in what appear to be contradictory knots!
I had to do some research on MSD requirements this past week to get our yacht club ready for the required annual State of Alabama MSD inspections...
If you'd like to run what you came up with by me before you submit it, I'll be glad to check it over.
Thanks, Peggy! The only question I had to answer for the Alabama prep was how to demonstrate that a device is CG certified, and for holding tanks I referenced 159.12a. The Alabama inspection didn't get into technicalities of vents, monitors, etc.; the biggest thing they look for is that you have the Y-valve locked off to prevent inadvertent overboard discharge.
That brings me back to the question I posed at the end - if the level monitor is a requirement, why do so many manufacturers turn out boats that have MSDs but don't have monitors on them?
That brings me back to the question I posed at the end - if the level monitor is a requirement, why do so many manufacturers turn out boats that have MSDs but don't have monitors on them?
Because...
Builders don't really even HAVE to install a tank...it's dealers who often end up installing whatever is necessary to make the boat "legal" in the waters into which it's being delivered. And, it's up to the owner to make sure his boat is in compliance with the laws of his home water's country and the type/cost of any equipment required to accomplish that. Some only want a sight glass...others want elaborate electronic systems. Builders don't install ANYthing (read "spend ANY money") they don't absolutely have to...and, as previously noted, if the tank is accessible and also made of a material that allows visual inspection, no gauge is required.
Builders don't really even HAVE to install a tank...it's dealers who often end up installing whatever is necessary to make the boat "legal" in the waters into which it's being delivered. And, it's up to the owner to make sure his boat is in compliance with the laws of his home water's country and the type/cost of any equipment required to accomplish that. Some only want a sight glass...others want elaborate electronic systems. Builders don't install ANYthing (read "spend ANY money") they don't absolutely have to...and, as previously noted, if the tank is accessible and also made of a material that allows visual inspection, no gauge is required.
When is spring coming? I am extending my Spring sale special for another month, this weather this year is not really co operating.
My way of saying thanks to all the boat owners who have purchased from me in the past on this site.
Special pricing on my Legacy 8 tank Monitor and our solo tank monitor. We manufacture all our own products in house.
Dennis Ferriello
Ferriello Sales LLC / New Providence Marine
www.ferriellosales.com
dennis@ferriellosales.com
My way of saying thanks to all the boat owners who have purchased from me in the past on this site.
Special pricing on my Legacy 8 tank Monitor and our solo tank monitor. We manufacture all our own products in house.
Dennis Ferriello
Ferriello Sales LLC / New Providence Marine
www.ferriellosales.com
dennis@ferriellosales.com
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