Catalina 27 Keel Bolts

[youngkevin89]

I am in the process of buying a larger boat (have small deposit down but have not yet committed). Everything is in pristine condition on the interior and exterior. The only rub is the health of the keel bolts (they are quite rusty) - its priced super well. Some rust is to be expected as it's a 1975, but I do think this sat with water in the bilge for some time, and I don't think there has ever been a refit. There is absolutely 0 Catalina smile and the exterior of the keel looks great. Sanded and painted every year, sits dry over the winter. No softness around the interior bolts. Brackish water.

Are these a dealbreaker for you all? I know Catalina sells a refit kit w/ lag bolts that penetrate into the keel. Curious if you have ever dealt with something like this and/or undergone a true refit (new bolts, removing the wooden core, glassing that area). Losing a keel would be a real PITA in addition to a huge safety hazard (sailing in pretty light waters + wind). Though presently, I'd be a lot more worried about circular cracking around the bolts themselves, potentially indicating the wood is rotted out. I've never heard of one of these boats losing a keel.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Not wise to make a judgment based solely on pictures. Before buying, I’d have the seller remove one for inspection. Might be a non-issue but …..

 

[dmax]

Are they stainless or plain steel? A magnet may help to determine. If they are plain steel, I would think they should be replaced. If they are S.S., see if you can clean one up. As Don says, you have to remove at least one of the nuts to see what's underneath. Try to determine if the sealant around the bolt where it passes through the fiberglass of the keel stub has been compromised - if so, there may be corrosion you will not be able to see without dropping the keel.

 

[MeAndMyCat27]

I have a 1976 C27 and my keel bolts are in similar, perhaps even worse condition. On the plus side, the previous owner removed the wood block that sits under the bilge and replaced with fiberglass. He also installed bronze lag screws down through the bilge and into the keel. I don't know what other posters on this forum mean by saying your keel bolts should be "replaced". That is basically impossible on these boats as the bolts are L-shaped and encased in molten lead. There is no way to unscrew them. The other proposed fix from Catalina is to "sister" in new stainless bolts. It's a tricky procedure but not impossible. You should consider that option, which is probably a better solution. While your bolts may be in good shape below the bilge, it's hard to know. If there is no "smile" that is a good sign but many Catalina owners do preventative maintenance of the keel-to-hull joint anyway. Grinding out the joint, filling with new sealant, and tape/fiberglassing over the joint. When doing such maintenance it may be possible to get a peak at the bolts at that interface, but don't count on it (at least not without a significant amount of work, and perhaps dropping the keel.) Lastly, I am pretty sure the bolts on this vintage of boat are not stainless steel, instead they are "mild" steel. Boats with stainless bolts corrode much, much less, if at all.

Justin

 

[dmax]

"I don't know what other posters on this forum mean by saying your keel bolts should be "replaced". That is basically impossible on these boats as the bolts are L-shaped and encased in molten lead"

Mars Keel can replace the bolts - they cut out the section the bolt occupies and cast in a new bolt. You can also tackle this yourself as detailed here (excellent job): Keel Bolts

Sistering in lag bolts is not as good a solution as either of these.

 

[MeAndMyCat27]

That procedure looked quite promising. I have pondered long and hard about how to cut out the bolts. The rig to make a hole around them is genius. I wish there were more explanation of how the holes were placed in order to cut the bolt at the six inch depth. I do have doubts about the new bolt installation, "tapping" into lead in particular. Lead just doesn't seem hard enough to hold those bolts, and others have described the lead basically failing to be tapped properly. The Catalina procedure where you open a window in the keel and screw the threaded rod into a crossbar that has been tapped seems like a safer bet for this reason. I would also consider pouring epoxy down into that hole as extra insurance.

Last year MarsKeel quoted me approx. $8000 to cut out these bolts, it's probably more now. Add to that other costs and you probably would/should consider getting a different boat. If I had to do it over again , I would not have bought a Catalina of this vintage. I would have at least bought one new enough to have the stainless bolts rather than the mild steel. Having said that, my boat has been fun and I enjoy it. However, in the back of my mind there is always some concern about the bolts.

 

[dmax]

"I wish there were more explanation of how the holes were placed in order to cut the bolt at the six inch depth. I do have doubts about the new bolt installation, "tapping" into lead in particular. Lead just doesn't seem hard enough to hold those bolts, and others have described the lead basically failing to be tapped properly. "

Yes, coming in from the side and cutting the bottom of the bolt looks like the most difficult part of the job.
It's not really clear from the article, but I believe the author put a large washer and nut on the bottom of the new keel bolts to secure them - the threads in the lead are there to align and hold the bolts while assembling. The epoxy filler also secures the bolts. You might be able to contact the author for more details.

 

[MeAndMyCat27]

I see their diagram now, it shoes the nut and washer/plate at the bottom of the new bolt. I reached out to them and will see if they reply. Another question I had was whether or not the original bolts on their boat were epoxied into the bilge/stub. Probably not or the boat would not have lifted off so easily.
I actually have a compounded problem in that if I were to undertake a similar repair I'd first have to remove the bronze lag screws. The previous owner says it was an absolute bear to install them and I am guess they would not come out easily. In addition there is new epoxy around those screws. I'd be worried the bilge/stub would get torn up badly. It might make more sense to put a sawzall blade in the joint crack and cut the bolts. Then use a hole saw in the bilge if necessary to remove the remaining piece of old bolt. Will ponder all this for next season. For now, looking to get out on the water.

 

[Indysailor]

That's about how mine look. Whether to replace kind of depends on what your sailing will be.

There is a way to add new bolts in a manner that is stronger than lag bolts. I have not done this and I feel like it's way too much work for me on my inland lake with a boat that has never seen salt in 44 years. Nor would I vouch for the safety of working directly with lead. But if you really want to add keel bolts, this is a way to do it. You basically drill long holes for each new bolt from the cabin down into the keel and fill them with water. Then you drill small horizontal holes in the keel exterior, hoping you're in line with the vertical holes, until you get water, which indicates where your bolt shaft will be. Then you expand that hole until it is large enough to accept about two inches of bolt and a few large fender washers. You then tighten the nut to snug it up. When done, fill with thickened epoxy and sand it smooth.