Catalina 27 - Keel bolt leak?

[pturner]

I'm a novice sailor in the process of purchasing a 1985 Catalina 27 STD with inboard Univ M18. There is a seven year old survey although it's mostly irrelevent now. The boat has been on the hard for 18 months and has a few obvious conditions which I can identify and one that I could use some of this sites experience in evaluating.

The 'Catalina Smile' has been repaired at some point in the past and the coating (VC17) is in good condition. I noticed dried streakes originating from three point in this repaired seam that run down the keel. The substance matches residue present in the bilge; dark flakey, maybe oil, fuel, etc. The exposed keel bolts have some deterioration but appear servicable with a bit of cleaning.

My concern is that if something came out on the hard from gravity, it's very likely the go the other way when back in the water. I would assume a path exists where the bolts travel up thru the hull into the bilge.

I have a call in to Catalina. I've also searched thru the archives here and still have the following questions:

Although it's impossible to know exactly the conditions between the keel and hull, is there a way for me to quantify, at least generally, the cost range to repair if done by a yard (i.e. we talking $1,500 or $5,000)? The local yard has not done this work and only responded with their hourly rate.

Would this scare an experienced boat owner away?

Thanks in advance for offering your thoughts!

Pete

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

The cost could be minimal or could exceed the value of the boat depending on the severity of the bolt corrosion. Rather than guess which is all you (or a yard) can do, with so many other boats around for sale, the question becomes why consider this one?

I should add that if you get some advice which begins with "I had this problem once and...", don't assume you will have the same experience, good or bad.

 

[caguy]

Do have pictures of the damage?

 

[caguy]

Have you seen Judy's B'jou article on the subject. They have some pretty good factory diagrams and instructions on completing the job. It does not appear all that complicated.
http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/catalinahomepage.htm
http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/catalinahomepage.htm
http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/images/keel_factory_drawings/

 

[pturner]

Don - Thanks for the reply. I've looked at three local Cat-27s (I live in Colorado) and it's the type we want; with inboard, wheel and tall rig preferably.
Re: that specific boat, the price already feels high ($16,800 with trail-rite trailer,wheel, standard rig, average sails - no spares, some extras). I can palate a potential repair if I can see and quantify it. Much more so than a boat I have to pay shipping and Agent costs for that I can't view personally. Any thoughts on a boat 'real estate' agent to find the boat I'm looking for? What do they typically cost? Shipping from the coast plus a grand in Agent cost would add about $2500 to $3000, I'm guessing, to my final number.

caguy - I'll upload some bilge pictures tonight but I don't have one of the exterior. Not much to see there, though, just dried streaks eminating from 'pin holes' in the keel/hull 'repaired' joint.

Pete

 

[pturner]

caguy, thanks for those links. Yes, I have seen that site. Great info. I spoke to the yard earleir today and explained roughly the steps outlined in the drawings from Catalina. They stated a range of $800 to $1,500.

I've made arrangements to have the boat placed in the water this weekend and I can see if there are signs of water coming up, plus evaluate the engine. Worst case I have it yanked out and continue my search for a boat.

Pete

 

[caguy]

The motor on mine was totally submerged and is now toast. I replaced it with a 18pp Tohatsu ob. There are some real advantages to having an outboard, ease of maintenance not to mention the huge amount of stage space where the old motor was.

What asking price for the boat? if you don't mind my asking?

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Don - Thanks for the reply. I've looked at three local Cat-27s (I live in Colorado) and it's the type we want; with inboard, wheel and tall rig preferably.
Re: that specific boat, the price already feels high ($16,800 with trail-rite trailer,wheel, standard rig, average sails - no spares, some extras). I can palate a potential repair if I can see and quantify it. Much more so than a boat I have to pay shipping and Agent costs for that I can't view personally. Any thoughts on a boat 'real estate' agent to find the boat I'm looking for? What do they typically cost? Shipping from the coast plus a grand in Agent cost would add about $2500 to $3000, I'm guessing, to my final number.


Pete

I'm no expert on C27 prices but a quick check on Yachtworld indicates the price you quoted is the highest being asked anywhere west of the Mississippi. All I can tell you is, if it were me, I'd never buy a boat that:
1. is too far away to look at personally, and
2. that has uncertain repair costs, the total of which could be significant.

Seems to me the real issue is if you have your focus set on a C27 or are there other comparable boats which might not be as great a risk.

 

[pturner]

I may have caused some confusion combining my 'Agent' question with my previous response. The boat in question is local and doesn't have any shipping burden, etc.

I agree 100% on the 'eyes on' and uncertain repairs question. My hope was to spiral in on some range of expected costs to deal with this issue. It's entirely possible there is no leak but I'm having a hard time explaining the symptom (streaks from the seam). If the cost to repair was lower than the total cost to buy and ship a boat from elsewhere, it might be worth pursuing.

Re Price - A book value showed $12.5k - $14.5k low to high, plus trailer (~$1,500) and sails ($800-$1,000 - OK shape). Definitely on the high side at $16,800.

Is there a resource to help find a boat or do I have to search myself (as I have been doing)?

Pete

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

In answer to your last question, most boat brokers will also act as a buyer agent if you ask. Some more helpful than others so look for local recommendations. Other than that, you are on your own.

One last consideration - if the streaks on the keel are a result of rust, both the keel bolts and the material holding the bolts to the keel would be suspect.

 

[Joe Diver]

A boat on the high side....in this incredibly competitive market....would have to be absolutely exceptional, to the extreme. Everything in new to excellent shape. Perfect rigging, sails, motor, bottom, cushions, interior, trailer, electrical, plumbing....everything....plus, have quite a few nice goodies like nav station, radios, sounder, etc......really a gem and a fine example of what the boats can be.

Otherwise, I would keep on looking.

That's just me though.

 

[jrowan]

The price that they're asking is just that the ASKING price. There's an ol' saying "askin ain't gettin' - I would use the potential costs of any repairs as a bargaining tool to lower the price substantially. Sellers always price a boat on the high end, most knowing that they're gonna have to bargain a lil'. Especially in this economy. Although I would consider a sound trailer a worthy asset, as they're hard to find & expensive for sailboats, since most r custom made. A good trailer can save u thousands a year in lower slip or storage fees, if U have a vehicle strong enough to pull it & a big back yard to stow her. My favorite past time is to stalk boat yards for the best deal out there, and I think its insulting not to bargain a lil.' All they can do is say no to a low ball offer. But don't ask don't get.
Good luck & Let us know the outcome.

 

[Trey0056]

I have a 1972 catalina 27 and the po used 5200 for the butler smile. I found out it has been about five years and no leaks. I just had the bottom paint done and here are some pics. Cost of lift and block with two days cure time equals about 400. You can do it all yourself.

 

[Kootenay pirate..]

For what its worth. .i paid $8600 for my Catalina 27,w quantum sails..less than 4yrs old.. raymarine autohelm good radio and vhf and roller ferling. .and some other goodies too

 

[skipper65]

I purchased an 82 Catalina 27 STD this past summer. Rebuilt universal low hrs, new head, bolts, bottom paint. Wheel drive. Good sails. Very clean and well maintained. Paid $12500 for it. I thought it was a fair price for the condition. There were a couple of other 27's available at a little lower price, but each had something that bothered me. This was in Texas. Hope that helps.

 

[Ajay73]

Kind of a late response but your keel bolts on a 1985 should be stainless steel. On my 1980 they were and are in excellent condition. If the trailer is in excellent condition I would put its value at around $4000. I wouldn't worry about the streaks but another issue is the wood in the stub keel. Up until 1988 Catalina put plywood in the keel stub which is about an inch and a half thick. That is very likely to be wet and should be taken out and replaced with fiberglass. There is a Catalina drawing describing the process. I had to do that on my 1980 C27. I tore out the old wood and had someone (a Professional) come in and reglass. For me the repair was $950 but I got the boat for a low, low price. My boat was basically sound but needed a lot of cosmetic fixup, other than the keel.