I'm looking at two 1973 Catalina 27's. One has a gas atomic 4, the other has an old Merc outboard. Inboard gas on any boat makes me nervous. I've also heard stories about following seas causing problems with the outboard well. I'm also a little concerned about hull/deck integrity on such an old boat, as well as chain plates, shroud lines, etc. Whatever I buy, I will have it surveyed,but I'm wondering if I should even be looking at boats so old.( $5000 in repairs to an old 30 could also be used to acquire a much newer 25) I'm on the fence and need a push.
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Bob Camarena
Outboard
I think if you check the archives you will find a number of previous postings on this issue. Personally I would opt for the outboard. It will sail faster and is cheaper to replace/overhaul. The only reason I can see to prefer the inboard is if you plan on doing a lot of motoring in rough water. In that case, the extra power of the inboard and the fact that the prop will always be submerged would be an asset.
I think if you check the archives you will find a number of previous postings on this issue. Personally I would opt for the outboard. It will sail faster and is cheaper to replace/overhaul. The only reason I can see to prefer the inboard is if you plan on doing a lot of motoring in rough water. In that case, the extra power of the inboard and the fact that the prop will always be submerged would be an asset.
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Rob Rich
Atomic 4
John - People on this site are probably tired of hearing me drone on about the Atomic 4, but I really love the engine. Of course you need to have the engine and the boat surveyed thoroughly by a accredited surveyor of good repute, but that goes without saying. I love the A4 due to it's simple design. It's been around in various forms since the early part of the century, and the current model is based on a 1940's design that I believe has changed very little. Very dependable, predictable, and tolerant of less than perfect conditions. As for gas - it is not as safe as diesel, but it is still safe if you handle it correrctly. For a great post on this issue, check the archives for the "gas or diesel" question about a month ago. The big drawback on the A4 comes to servicing it. If you need to pull it, it's big project, whereas removing an outboard is pretty easy. Nonetheless - I would not trade mine, even at no cost. If the two boats are entirely equal, then I would go with the boat with the newer engine in better condition. I think your survey will really help guide you in this task - it will turn up many other things that may turn out to be much more important. But look at the A4 as an asset, not a liability. Mine is 22 years old and runs like a champ! Rob Rich
John - People on this site are probably tired of hearing me drone on about the Atomic 4, but I really love the engine. Of course you need to have the engine and the boat surveyed thoroughly by a accredited surveyor of good repute, but that goes without saying. I love the A4 due to it's simple design. It's been around in various forms since the early part of the century, and the current model is based on a 1940's design that I believe has changed very little. Very dependable, predictable, and tolerant of less than perfect conditions. As for gas - it is not as safe as diesel, but it is still safe if you handle it correrctly. For a great post on this issue, check the archives for the "gas or diesel" question about a month ago. The big drawback on the A4 comes to servicing it. If you need to pull it, it's big project, whereas removing an outboard is pretty easy. Nonetheless - I would not trade mine, even at no cost. If the two boats are entirely equal, then I would go with the boat with the newer engine in better condition. I think your survey will really help guide you in this task - it will turn up many other things that may turn out to be much more important. But look at the A4 as an asset, not a liability. Mine is 22 years old and runs like a champ! Rob Rich
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Rob Rich
Check this post
Sorry - the name of the post was "Gas or Diesel", and it is second from the bottom on the MID SIZED BOATS forum. Let us know how you make out. Rob
Sorry - the name of the post was "Gas or Diesel", and it is second from the bottom on the MID SIZED BOATS forum. Let us know how you make out. Rob
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Melody Miller
First boat?
Hi John: Is this your first boat? Then I wouldn't feel too bad about buying an older boat. It's a good way to find out how much you're going to enjoy the sport without putting a lot of money up front. I definitely wouldn't buy a smaller boat. My first boat, the one I have now is a 27 and I actually think it's too small. (Some has to do with inefficient use of space by Catalina.) About the A-4, get a mechanic to look at it and tell him to make certain all the hoses are good. You may also want to install a valve on the hose descending from the gas tank into the engine so you can shut off the supply of gas to the engine when the boat is at rest. The A-4's have been used for a several years and have an excellant safety record despite the fact that gasoline is highly volatile. I wouldn't get an outboard because of the noise factor. Inboards are quieter and I think more reliable. I can't tell you how many times, I've seen people fool around trying to get their outboards started. And this may not seem like an important factor now, but it might be later, an outboard just destroys the lines of a boat. Melody
Hi John: Is this your first boat? Then I wouldn't feel too bad about buying an older boat. It's a good way to find out how much you're going to enjoy the sport without putting a lot of money up front. I definitely wouldn't buy a smaller boat. My first boat, the one I have now is a 27 and I actually think it's too small. (Some has to do with inefficient use of space by Catalina.) About the A-4, get a mechanic to look at it and tell him to make certain all the hoses are good. You may also want to install a valve on the hose descending from the gas tank into the engine so you can shut off the supply of gas to the engine when the boat is at rest. The A-4's have been used for a several years and have an excellant safety record despite the fact that gasoline is highly volatile. I wouldn't get an outboard because of the noise factor. Inboards are quieter and I think more reliable. I can't tell you how many times, I've seen people fool around trying to get their outboards started. And this may not seem like an important factor now, but it might be later, an outboard just destroys the lines of a boat. Melody
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Ron
Outboards? Weather?
I sat at the dock last season and watched a fellow sailor with a Cat 27 with an outboard get into trouble. He came in to get away from the 30 knot winds that a cold front developed. As he was making his turn into the slip he miss judged the cross wind and began to overshoot his dock. He instantly put the outboard in reverse and tried to back up. He had a 9 horse engine on it and with the wind and waves hitting the stern he could do nothing but loose ground toward the rocks. The prop would not stay in the water and was cavatating badly! Concluding that his fate was to end up ashore he gunned the engine forward and turned the helm hard to port. I ended up rowing a dinghy out and attaching a line to a far dock to pull him off the rocks. He sustained damage to his keel and rudder. I have had 3 boats with outboards. If the water is flat I loved them. And they are easy to take off and get repaired. But when the wind kicks up you better have the sails ready to get you out of trouble. I now have a boat with an inboard diesel. (We are best friends!) Weigh the odds, but what ever you do... Buy a boat and "Become a sailor!"
I sat at the dock last season and watched a fellow sailor with a Cat 27 with an outboard get into trouble. He came in to get away from the 30 knot winds that a cold front developed. As he was making his turn into the slip he miss judged the cross wind and began to overshoot his dock. He instantly put the outboard in reverse and tried to back up. He had a 9 horse engine on it and with the wind and waves hitting the stern he could do nothing but loose ground toward the rocks. The prop would not stay in the water and was cavatating badly! Concluding that his fate was to end up ashore he gunned the engine forward and turned the helm hard to port. I ended up rowing a dinghy out and attaching a line to a far dock to pull him off the rocks. He sustained damage to his keel and rudder. I have had 3 boats with outboards. If the water is flat I loved them. And they are easy to take off and get repaired. But when the wind kicks up you better have the sails ready to get you out of trouble. I now have a boat with an inboard diesel. (We are best friends!) Weigh the odds, but what ever you do... Buy a boat and "Become a sailor!"
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Garry @ S/V TASHTEGO
Atomic 4
I have an A4 in TASHTEGO and I love it. I have done some upgrades including electronic ignition and fresh water cooling (soon). One advantage of the inboard is the ability to generate plenty of electricity for battery charging. A disadvantage is that backing up is a circus act with the boat trying to go sideways due to propeller creep. But Ron's story (previous post) has convinced me that I should just learn to cope. The safety issue with a gasoline engine is really not serious. If you take proper care and use your nose you won't have any trouble.
I have an A4 in TASHTEGO and I love it. I have done some upgrades including electronic ignition and fresh water cooling (soon). One advantage of the inboard is the ability to generate plenty of electricity for battery charging. A disadvantage is that backing up is a circus act with the boat trying to go sideways due to propeller creep. But Ron's story (previous post) has convinced me that I should just learn to cope. The safety issue with a gasoline engine is really not serious. If you take proper care and use your nose you won't have any trouble.
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Nick
Go With The Atomic Bomb . . .
Even though I find it slightly hard to believe, I've heard it stated over and over that there's never been a fire caused by an Atomic 4. I think you're much more likely to go up in flames due to an unrelated electrical problem. My '71 Catalina-27 has an A-4 I'd never trade for an outboard. My motor runs like a sewing machine and to me, it's just more boaty to have an inboard. I suppose it would also depend on how much of a gear-head you are. Like a Harley engine, you can become very devoted to your little A-4. There are some good sites devoted to Atomic 4s, and one of the best is Moyer Marine up in Canada, check it out at http://www.moyermarine.com On the other hand, if you purchase a boat with an inboard, it's much easier to switch to an outboard later (if you want) and almost impossible to do the reverse. Good luck, Nick
Even though I find it slightly hard to believe, I've heard it stated over and over that there's never been a fire caused by an Atomic 4. I think you're much more likely to go up in flames due to an unrelated electrical problem. My '71 Catalina-27 has an A-4 I'd never trade for an outboard. My motor runs like a sewing machine and to me, it's just more boaty to have an inboard. I suppose it would also depend on how much of a gear-head you are. Like a Harley engine, you can become very devoted to your little A-4. There are some good sites devoted to Atomic 4s, and one of the best is Moyer Marine up in Canada, check it out at http://www.moyermarine.com On the other hand, if you purchase a boat with an inboard, it's much easier to switch to an outboard later (if you want) and almost impossible to do the reverse. Good luck, Nick
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A.C.
Go Outboard!!
The outboard may be less attractive to some, but a nice new Honda and the quiet peace of mind it brings adds something of it's own. In addition, with the outboard you gain plenty of storage space under the cockpit. Our Honda was the long shaft and never broke the surface of the water regardless of the weather / waves.
The outboard may be less attractive to some, but a nice new Honda and the quiet peace of mind it brings adds something of it's own. In addition, with the outboard you gain plenty of storage space under the cockpit. Our Honda was the long shaft and never broke the surface of the water regardless of the weather / waves.
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Joe Passanisi
Out boards don't smell up your bilge
I have a 15 hp Johnson long shaft. Its not a sailmaster so the exhaust goes through the prop and this causes a little less power going in reverse. Seeing as this is your first boat chances are you are not fool enough to be out in conditions which you are not comfortable with. The outboard gives you so much more room for storage it not funny. You can purchase an outboard with electric start an alternator for charging and cockpit controls. Plus if you go to sell the boat put the crappy out board back on and keep the new one to sell or use. I can gaurantee you can sell the outboard faster than you can sell the boat. Go with the out board, out board, outboard, and leave the smelly, oily, leaky, vibrating inboard to the blue water sailors. Enjoy blue skys and semmy calm sea's. Rugged water isn't fun unless you like that kinda stuff. I am getting carried away now so I better depart. Let me know how you make out.
I have a 15 hp Johnson long shaft. Its not a sailmaster so the exhaust goes through the prop and this causes a little less power going in reverse. Seeing as this is your first boat chances are you are not fool enough to be out in conditions which you are not comfortable with. The outboard gives you so much more room for storage it not funny. You can purchase an outboard with electric start an alternator for charging and cockpit controls. Plus if you go to sell the boat put the crappy out board back on and keep the new one to sell or use. I can gaurantee you can sell the outboard faster than you can sell the boat. Go with the out board, out board, outboard, and leave the smelly, oily, leaky, vibrating inboard to the blue water sailors. Enjoy blue skys and semmy calm sea's. Rugged water isn't fun unless you like that kinda stuff. I am getting carried away now so I better depart. Let me know how you make out.
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Rob Rich
Good to Hear from A4 owners
Our engines get such a bad wrap. I was at the dock tonight just to check on the other woman. I hadn't started the engine in three weeks. It fired on the second revolution (with choke and 1/4 throttle). You Gotta Love It! P.S. - Gary, how do you like the electronic igintion system? Just curious.
Our engines get such a bad wrap. I was at the dock tonight just to check on the other woman. I hadn't started the engine in three weeks. It fired on the second revolution (with choke and 1/4 throttle). You Gotta Love It! P.S. - Gary, how do you like the electronic igintion system? Just curious.
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Garry @ S/V TASHTEGO
Ignition
I used the "Ignitor" kit from Don Moyer. Installation was simple. No more points and consequently less chance for failure. When I bought the boat it wouldn't start and needed a tune up which the previous owner paid for(make sure your survey includes sea trials when you buy). I don't want that to happen to me at the wrong moment so I carry two sets of plugs, the old points and a new set of conventional points just in case. Otherwise no big difference. I have also added a raw water strainer, a Racor fuel filter/water separator and have just ordered a fresh water cooling rig and an electric fuel pump. I assume the old girl runs better and will have a better view when I change the plugs sometime next summer. Now if she'd just back up in a straight line...
I used the "Ignitor" kit from Don Moyer. Installation was simple. No more points and consequently less chance for failure. When I bought the boat it wouldn't start and needed a tune up which the previous owner paid for(make sure your survey includes sea trials when you buy). I don't want that to happen to me at the wrong moment so I carry two sets of plugs, the old points and a new set of conventional points just in case. Otherwise no big difference. I have also added a raw water strainer, a Racor fuel filter/water separator and have just ordered a fresh water cooling rig and an electric fuel pump. I assume the old girl runs better and will have a better view when I change the plugs sometime next summer. Now if she'd just back up in a straight line...
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richard
A4 over outboard any day
I have owned an atomic 4 catalina 27 and now own an atomic 4 catalina 30. I also own an outboard for the dingy and worked on a dive boat for a year with outboards. The atomic 4 is more reliable in any types of seas. If you are calm lake sailing then it does not matter so much. If you are coastal sailing or San Francisco bay sailing then the atomic 4 is your best bet. The outboard won't stay in the water in heavy seas and a following sea will drench it. Hopefully in these conditions you are sailing, but you have to still get in to the marina. Atomic 4 engines are one of the easyiest gasoline engines to work on so if you have even slight mechanical skills you are going to be fine. You had better have some decent skills if you want to work on outboards as well. There are no doccumented cases of atomic 4 engines blowing up. Most ski boats are inboard/outboard gasoline engines. Do people avoid them? Not at all. Use your brain, turn the bilge blower on, smell the blower exhaust, and you will be fine.
I have owned an atomic 4 catalina 27 and now own an atomic 4 catalina 30. I also own an outboard for the dingy and worked on a dive boat for a year with outboards. The atomic 4 is more reliable in any types of seas. If you are calm lake sailing then it does not matter so much. If you are coastal sailing or San Francisco bay sailing then the atomic 4 is your best bet. The outboard won't stay in the water in heavy seas and a following sea will drench it. Hopefully in these conditions you are sailing, but you have to still get in to the marina. Atomic 4 engines are one of the easyiest gasoline engines to work on so if you have even slight mechanical skills you are going to be fine. You had better have some decent skills if you want to work on outboards as well. There are no doccumented cases of atomic 4 engines blowing up. Most ski boats are inboard/outboard gasoline engines. Do people avoid them? Not at all. Use your brain, turn the bilge blower on, smell the blower exhaust, and you will be fine.
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Rick
A4 wont screw up the environment...
as badly as a 2 stroke outboard. The two-stroke uses a third to a forth of it fuel to cool the cylinders and then is dumped overboard. Many places out here on the west coast are banning the use of two-strokes on certain waterways and this is a trend that will only spread and continue (and for good reason). An inboard engine will increase the value of your boat when it comes time to move up and will make it easier to sell than having a motor that is not welcome in some areas. Get a real motor and don't be one of those obnoxious boaters that give a bad name to us all.
as badly as a 2 stroke outboard. The two-stroke uses a third to a forth of it fuel to cool the cylinders and then is dumped overboard. Many places out here on the west coast are banning the use of two-strokes on certain waterways and this is a trend that will only spread and continue (and for good reason). An inboard engine will increase the value of your boat when it comes time to move up and will make it easier to sell than having a motor that is not welcome in some areas. Get a real motor and don't be one of those obnoxious boaters that give a bad name to us all.
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Lorrie
Outboard works fine!!
I chose a Catalina 27 with the outboard set-up for several reasons. I had a newer electric start 8 HP. I liked the idea of going faster with the motor up (put 2 boats on the water and it's always a race). A tune-up on the outboard is a snap (plugs, fuel filter, gear oil change with a bucket all done while engine hanging in 30 mins). I sail the windy Carquinez Straits and have no problem steering my boat in high winds. The outboard rotates so I can steer not only with my rudder I can use the propeller to get in and out of my 25 ft. slip. Also take a look at how much space is available for storage with the outboard option. Yes a following sea brings in water in the outboard compartment. It drains out by the time I'm back in the slip. OK I love my boat! Anyway you go a Catalina 27 is a great sailboat! Go for it!!!
I chose a Catalina 27 with the outboard set-up for several reasons. I had a newer electric start 8 HP. I liked the idea of going faster with the motor up (put 2 boats on the water and it's always a race). A tune-up on the outboard is a snap (plugs, fuel filter, gear oil change with a bucket all done while engine hanging in 30 mins). I sail the windy Carquinez Straits and have no problem steering my boat in high winds. The outboard rotates so I can steer not only with my rudder I can use the propeller to get in and out of my 25 ft. slip. Also take a look at how much space is available for storage with the outboard option. Yes a following sea brings in water in the outboard compartment. It drains out by the time I'm back in the slip. OK I love my boat! Anyway you go a Catalina 27 is a great sailboat! Go for it!!!
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Ann
Atomic 4
As long as you are a smart boater, which I assume you are, the atomic 4 is a great engine for the 27. I have been sailing aboard a 27 with that engine since I was 7 years old and couldn't imagine life without it. The inboard gives you so much more control in adverse conditions. Good luck!
As long as you are a smart boater, which I assume you are, the atomic 4 is a great engine for the 27. I have been sailing aboard a 27 with that engine since I was 7 years old and couldn't imagine life without it. The inboard gives you so much more control in adverse conditions. Good luck!
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Paul
Outboard
I bought my 1974 C27 last year after 6 months of trying to make a decision. There are several reasons I went with an outboard. 1) Cost... the outboard versions were cheaper to buy and if anything goes wrong, the motor is easier (and cheaper) to change. 2) they don't leak. Every inboard I looked at leaked constantly into it's bilge. With the outboard, you gain a large dry storage compartment. 3)Quieter and less vibration (in my case). My Honda 4 stoke is smoother and makes less noise then the A4 I looked at. (Uses less gas too) If you get the outboard, you can upgrade to a newer one anytime with little investment or work. With an inboard, it's just not practical to do that. I get some water in my outboard well in some conditions but it just drains out and doesn't get into the boat. As for the age of the boat, that has far more to do with care and maintenance it's received. I looked at some crappy ones from the 80's and bought a really nice 1974. Paul Emley "TESS", #1433 1974, Dinette, outboard Vancouver, B.C., Canada
I bought my 1974 C27 last year after 6 months of trying to make a decision. There are several reasons I went with an outboard. 1) Cost... the outboard versions were cheaper to buy and if anything goes wrong, the motor is easier (and cheaper) to change. 2) they don't leak. Every inboard I looked at leaked constantly into it's bilge. With the outboard, you gain a large dry storage compartment. 3)Quieter and less vibration (in my case). My Honda 4 stoke is smoother and makes less noise then the A4 I looked at. (Uses less gas too) If you get the outboard, you can upgrade to a newer one anytime with little investment or work. With an inboard, it's just not practical to do that. I get some water in my outboard well in some conditions but it just drains out and doesn't get into the boat. As for the age of the boat, that has far more to do with care and maintenance it's received. I looked at some crappy ones from the 80's and bought a really nice 1974. Paul Emley "TESS", #1433 1974, Dinette, outboard Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Tom
I've got a '71
Granted, you will never make any money on a sailboat. The other day I miss timed the tides in the worst way. For an hour, my freind said it was an hour and a half,I looked at the bay bridge as the water flowed past us at about five knots before I realized that we were going nowhere. I just reached down to the controls and started her up. Another sailboat actually started to go backwards due to the current. Now, I respect gasoline, but with the blower and a well running engine, I am not as worried with it as propane. Mostly, it is because I was a mechanic and I have had several friends lean over a flooding engine with a lit cigarette. It all depends on what you are comfortable with, but the Atomic 4 seems like a pretty low maintenance, bullet proof engine. My two cents, Tom
Granted, you will never make any money on a sailboat. The other day I miss timed the tides in the worst way. For an hour, my freind said it was an hour and a half,I looked at the bay bridge as the water flowed past us at about five knots before I realized that we were going nowhere. I just reached down to the controls and started her up. Another sailboat actually started to go backwards due to the current. Now, I respect gasoline, but with the blower and a well running engine, I am not as worried with it as propane. Mostly, it is because I was a mechanic and I have had several friends lean over a flooding engine with a lit cigarette. It all depends on what you are comfortable with, but the Atomic 4 seems like a pretty low maintenance, bullet proof engine. My two cents, Tom
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