Cat 310, 2001, Universal 25 XPBC Overheating

[Albanach]

And I thought that a non-working toilet was my big problem – until today my engine, after having run ok over past few weeks at about 160 degr., suddenly started overheating to 240 when I revved it up to 2500 and then 3000 – just for short while, to check revs. Temperature gauge then suddenly rose to180. When I slowed down it kept rising over the mark of 240. When checking exhaust again, no water was coming out. Fortunately still close to mooring, so virtually idled back to it with engine making peculiar noises, but still idling ok.

When checking at mooring, engine bay and bilge was flooded with salt water.

Assume that there was blockage in engine and saltwater coolant was pushed out of engine somewhere. The freshwater coolant was up to high in the expansion tank.

Interestingly, the red warning light for high temperature did not come on, but the gauge stayed on 240 even after battery switched off – did it have a stroke or something?

Any idea, particularly where the water in the bilge etc came from?

Having a mechanic to look at it, as I’m hopeless with engines, but would like to be able to check on what he is doing.

Thanks, folks

 

[butchrobbins]

And I thought that a non-working toilet was my big problem – until today my engine, after having run ok over past few weeks at about 160 degr., suddenly started overheating to 240 when I revved it up to 2500 and then 3000 – just for short while, to check revs. Temperature gauge then suddenly rose to180. When I slowed down it kept rising over the mark of 240. When checking exhaust again, no water was coming out. Fortunately still close to mooring, so virtually idled back to it with engine making peculiar noises, but still idling ok.

When checking at mooring, engine bay and bilge was flooded with salt water.

Assume that there was blockage in engine and saltwater coolant was pushed out of engine somewhere. The freshwater coolant was up to high in the expansion tank.

Interestingly, the red warning light for high temperature did not come on, but the gauge stayed on 240 even after battery switched off – did it have a stroke or something?

Any idea, particularly where the water in the bilge etc came from?

Having a mechanic to look at it, as I’m hopeless with engines, but would like to be able to check on what he is doing.

Thanks, folks

I guess the water pump would be too obvious?

 

[paulj]

Albanach
One problem at ahhh time.
Temperature gage.....
Check these electrical conections....you have a short.


paulj:troll:

 

[rpwillia]

Assuming electrical connections are OK ...

Next things to check in order are raw water intake components (intake valve and hose up to raw water pump), water pump (front of engine, 3 bolts) and then heat exchanger. Finally if none of those then look at your exhaust elbow.

PaulJ, Wouldn't the short just make the gauge read zero? I recall mine fell off once and I got an alarm and a weird reading, but don't remember the specifics.

 

[Witzend]

The thermal couple's (sending unit that is mounted on the engine) resistance is inversely proportional to the temperature, thus as the temp. increases the resistance goes down. When R goes down I (current increases) causing the needle in the gauge to deflect more. It is acting like a current meter. So, Paul is correct if it is shorted the needle will read max. and may eventually burn out the coil in the meter if the circuit is not designed correctly.

 

[MarkZ]

You may want to check your exhaust hoses. This isn't very likely to be the cause of the overheating, but it is a very simple visual check so you don't have much to lose by looking. My exhaust hose failed between the engine and the muffler, and I know of another owner that had his fail between the muffler and the thru hull.

 

[Albanach]

Thanks, all you guys for trying to assist with suggestions. It would seem that either way you are way ahead of my mechanics who, so far , apparently have done nothing. But it will greatly assist in checking their quote/work.

Relating your thoughts back to what was happening, you all seem to have very valid points.

Maybe, I should turn this into a guessing comp. - drinks (at my expense) to be collected at RMYC, Pittwater, Sydney, any time.

Shall let you know - provided I can still afford to send emails.

 

[jonfreeman]

My 1999 310 was exhibiting similar behavior. Hot smell and elevated temperature (not overheating). I couldn't see anything obvious, so just lived with it for a couple weeks. THEN, I had occasion to push on the fan belt, and the alternator moved! I found the lower attach bolt was loose, and tightened it. I know it sounds simple, but the smell has disappeared, and the temperature has returned to 160.

The smell, I believe was the belt, or maybe the alternator, or both.

FWIW

Jon Freeman
C-310 "Summer Sojourn"
Seattle/Tacoma

 

[jonfreeman]

OK - I went back and read this post, and I am way off on my suggestion. I read a number of the forums yesterday, but didn't respond then. Maybe I'm mixing up yours with another one (!).

After RE-reading your post, the salt water thing is what I am most concerned with. If you've got that much saltwater in the boat, it's coming from somewhere. Avoiding sinking her would be my concern. Until you locate the leak, it might be appropriate to close the intake thru hull.

The fact that you HAVE saltwater in the bilge would tend to suggest the pump is pumping, but it could be mere gravity. The pump could be (as suggested by a more together poster than me) in need of an impeller.

OK another opinion from a distance. Sorry for the previous left field one.

Jon Freeman

 

[Stu Jackson]

Hot eninge

1. It would seem that either way you are way ahead of my mechanics who, so far , apparently have done nothing. But it will greatly assist in checking their quote/work.

2. Maybe, I should turn this into a guessing comp.

1. Your largest error by far has been to deal with mechanics. See reply #2 here: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=656422 Learn about your engine, it is NOT that hard. I put off buying a bigger boat for too long, thinking that taking the outboard off my C25 to get serviced at the shop was easier. I knew nothing about my engine back in 1998 when we bought Aquavite, but NOW I do. I had a mechanic work on my engine once. He f-ed up the work, I hadda fix it and it cost three times as much by the time I was done. Fix it yourself. How, learn, read, get tools and DO IT. Do I make myself clear? WHY? Because it's a safety issue, you aren't always gonna be around a mechanic. Here's an example: . We were ready to go at noon, but for the first time ever the engine wouldn’t start. The fuel pump was working, but there was absolutely NO reaction from the starter solenoid. I had studied the technical issues about our boats, thanks to the great C34 website. I said, “I know exactly what it is, we’ll be out of here in 30 minutes.” After 18 years the fuse holder between the starter button and the starter solenoid had completely disintegrated. I got a new fuse holder out of our electrical supplies, rewired the connection and off we went, at 1231, to our next destination .You need to develop your own institutional database, by reading about your engine in reliable sources, like the manuals and other trustworthy websites. Since you C310 guys don't have your own website, I welcome you to use ours, www.c34ia.org and our SEARCHABLE message board at http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?board=11.0 We have the same engines!!! And 20 years of HELP and information.

I really don't care if you work eight days a week and claim you don't have time to learn to work on your engine. Hogwash. It's your safety and that of your family and guests.

2. Take the guesswork out of it, it's unhealthy to think like that. Saltwater in the bilge? You have a leak. Find it and fix it. Connections, hoses, HX end caps, exhaust hose, muffler connections, there are hundreds of places to look. Only YOU can do it. Do a search on our C34 message board under the word "BURP" and learn how to clear your freshwater system to avoid overheating. Overheating because of loose belt - of course, the belt runs the freshwater pump, what did you think was going to happen? Buy an alternator belt tensioner (find it by doing a search on our message board, there's even pictures!)

Become "one" with your engine, you and everyone else will thank you. Engineer speaking from California!!!

I invite ALL OF YOU with M25 series engines to hang out on our website and read what's there on the Projects and FAQ pages and the message board. We have a lot to offer about similar systems. The C36 website is also a great reference source. Don't limit yourselves to this limited board. Many of our message board registrants own other boats, and the C36 and C34 guys swap yarns and fixits all the time. Join us.

Keep your boats in great shape by learning and doing more.

 

[Albanach]

1. Your largest error by far has been to deal with mechanics...............................................'

You are totally correct, Stu, and thanks for the links which I have copied and shall be studied with the appropriate amount of oiling of scotch. Seriously, re mechanics you are correct. Before buying the boat I had arguments with one who maintained the alternator was charging, even though it was'nt: He had forgotten to disconnect the shorepower when testing.

However, I am on a steep ( and impatient) learning curve here. Eventually, I am hoping to understand the 'beast' - but meanwhile I'm doing it with a crutch/mechanic.

So far we have established that there is a blockage in the raw water feed to the engine cooling system, which (probably when I revved up) split one of the cooling feed hoses. Just trying to find blockage now. Shall keep all you terrific guys informed!

PS jfreeman: Those were my thoughts at the time. first thing I did was to shut down the intake. Was a great day, with me pumping/mopping the bilge etc whilst my guest was sitting with legs crossed waiting to get ashore to use a working toilet.

Still, all good fun.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Clearing the line

You appear to be going in the right direction. Bookmark this if you haven't already: www.marinedieseldirect.com There are pictures of the engine that are very helpful. Do yourself a favor, print them out and do a "walking tour" of your own engine. Start identifying the parts and eventually, and sooner rather than later, it'll all start to come together. Our C34 website has the engine manuals, too, www.c34ia.org, left side index, Manuals.

Re: raw water systems. I wrote this for my Secretary's Report in the August 2008 Mainsheet magazine, and have posted it in other places online before. I continue to recommend to International Association members of ALL one-design classes that they read ALL of the articles in the magazine, NOT JUST their own. So many of the systems and engines are the same, that it would be foolish to miss good ideas from other boat sizes.

Among the interesting little “tidbits” of information that I’d remembered reading about on the website had to do with cleaning out the raw water intake with a dinghy foot pump. On a nice mid-winter March sail with Ken Heyman, our treasurer who was here visiting, we had just left the South Beach Marina and were motoring over to see the “Lady Washington,” one of the tallships that regularly visits the Bay Area and has cannonball encounters of the close kind with fellow tallships. Since it was cold out, there seemed to be a bit more white smoke from the exhaust than usual, which I attributed to the lower air temperature. Upon checking the temperature gauge, we noted it was pegged and stopped the engine immediately. Ken and I went through a checklist of actions we could take. Sailing back to the marina was not among them, since there was no wind and the end of the ebb was setting us north towards the Bay Bridge. Thru hull strainer clear – check. Raw water entering – check, but a trickle and less than expected. Raw water pump impeller in one piece – check. Raw water pump turning – check. Spare raw water pump gasket to replace cover – check. Temperature gauge working properly – check. Hoses and thru hull clear – hmm… We got the dinghy foot pump out from the lazarette, replaced the strainer and opened the seacock. Because the arrangement of the hoses and the strainer on “Aquavite” aren’t configured to connect the pump there, we removed the hose from the raw water pump and used the dinghy pump at that end of the hose. That turned out to actually be easier than trying to work under the head sink. There was significant resistance at first, but after setting the three way valve on the foot pump to a higher pressure setting, the pump started working. Whatever had been clogging either the thru hull or the line was flushed out. Once everything was reassembled, we started the engine and all was well. Lesson Learned: It pays to read the material on the website because you just never know when you’ll be faced with an insurmountable problem only to find out that one of our skippers had “been there – done that” and had most importantly reported it for all of us to know. Thanks to Ken for his analytical assistance!


On a completely unrelated, but important topic which was also included in that report:


At the other end of the spectrum, we recently completed our electrical upgrades with the installation of our Link 2000. I think we set a new record for procrastination: we bought the Link in 1998! Once setup for the battery banks and type, the Link has proven useful and is a helpful addition to our enhanced electrical system. Interestingly enough, the Link confirms all those mathematical calculations I’d been doing in my head for the past ten years about amp draws from individual equipment, charging amperages and voltages, and the amp hours remaining in our house battery bank. Another advantage is that the Link, now hooked up to our Freedom 15 inverter / charger, allows us to turn the charger function on or off. Previously, every time we were plugged in the charger would be on. Additionally, the Link can now instruct the charger to equalize our batteries. Many have suggested that a battery monitor should be the very first piece of equipment in upgrading an electrical system. I suggest that a more robust house battery bank, and perhaps an upgraded alternator and regulator, may well be more beneficial as a first step, as long as an understanding of a proper energy budget is developed. I’ve posted our Energy Budget Worksheet on the Forum/Message Board. A Link 2000 is essentially overkill for a simple electrical system, and a Link 10 would be sufficient to monitor a house bank, but it sure is fun to have the all bells and whistles, to say nothing about the neat backlighting!

 

[Albanach]

Re: Clearing the line

Thanks for the additional 'marinediesel link', Stu - it is excellent.

 

[cat33705]

Gunk in fresh water radiator

My 2004 Cat310 was used in cruise service before my purchase. This FL boat had gunk in the fresh water. Pulled the unit and sent to auto rediator shop. Clean fresh water, no contact with sea water. Just like your auto the cooling system needs routine maintenance.